Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

> I happened to be present few times in Mayapur, when all present

> SCKON leaders, gurus, sannyasis, devotees were celebrating, infront of Sri

> Sri Radha-Madhava, the best sankirtan devotees through several concessive

> years, Harinamanada and Navina-nirada Prabhus. These two are still going

> on out, distributing books. Incredibly. You try to do like them.

 

Who are these SCKON leaders? Must have missed out. (sorry I couldn't

resist).

 

Certainly Srila Prabhupada was very happy when he heard the books were going

out. But just the activity if not done with the right motivation will not

save one. Some of the book distributors that I knew in the mid 70's appeared

to be motivated by name and fame, regular trips to India, nice walkmans,

best prasad etc. Some of them are now complete debauchees and have been for

years, but of course they might come back, and certainly whatever sincere

endeavour they put in is recognised by the Lord. Maybe they will continue

their aspiration for spiritual life this life, maybe next.

 

Others among them are still with us. Spiritual aspiration is an individual

thing. Thousands of people joined at the Manor in the 70's, but the majority

of them are not with us now. The majority of Srila Prabhupadas disciples

also left. We know that out of many thousands of men only a few will

endeavour for spiritual life. So we can see that practicaly.

 

> Funy that you are telling me to be good in cynicism. After this

> ascertain of yours that these glorious devotees are making

> "pious" activities that will result, eventually, in their

> beginning actual spiritual advancement.

 

One cannot acurately generalise of course. But can YOU say what each of

their motivations was? As I keep saying if they are sincere the Lord will

recognise that and fulfil their desires.

 

> I like that you brought this example in discussion. Because

> this same example confirms indeed that a guru doesn't have

> to be an uttama-adhikary. Let's have a closer look.

>

> Srila Prabhupada:

>

> "Dhruva had a feeling of obligation to his mother, Suniti. It was Suniti

> who had given him the clue which had now enabled him to be personally

> carried to the Vaikuntha planet by the associates of Lord Visnu. He now

> remembered her and wanted to take her with him. Actually, Dhruva

> Maharaja's mother, Suniti, was his patha-pradarsaka-guru.

> Patha-pradarsaka-guru means "the guru, or the spiritual master, who shows

> the way."

 

Prabhu.. thank you... now I know who is my real guru. I should have realised

it all along. I was determined to find Krsna, and my freind Paddy

O'Flaherty, showed me the way. He directed me toward the Krsna Temple. He

certainly has potency, as he can down 16 pints of strong ale in a single

evening. I shall immediately approach him for Siksa.

 

Seriously, we should certainly be grateful to anyone who puts us right in

life, especialy if they help us to understand the right direction. But would

you take complete shelter of such a person. If Dhruva's mum was all he

needed he could have saved a lot of time, and stayed right at home. Narada

could have saved himself a trip to the Jungle.

 

There are many gurus, and Srila Prabhupada mentions one here. But you have

to surender to the right one. My music teacher is a guru, but he cant take

me to the Lord, because he does not have the Lord.

 

But dont you think Narad had a tad to do with it?

 

> - Suniti was a bogus guru, so Dhruva got to get another one

> to get initiation from.

 

Not bogus, because of her Dhruva was fortunate enough to get Narada. I wish

MY mum could do that for me. You can only take diksa from one at a time. But

you can take siksa from many.

 

Maybe I loosely bandied around the word bogus before? OK I was wrong. Anyone

who alerts one to spiritual life, cant be that bad. It is a fact that one

cannot say that all the previous gurus were wrong all the time, whatever

they transmitted without change was of some benefit. Have you not heard

however, that Kali has also taken shelter in our movement, and sometimes

manifests in so called devotees, to disrupt Prabhupadas movement (can anyone

give a reference to that?). The danger is within. We have to be very careful

who we accept.

 

> - Dhruva accrues pious credit that results in getting a real

> guru, and thus he may start the actual spiritual advancement.

 

Yep.

 

> Please provide the guru-sadhu-sastra reference for the "principle" that

> unless one's diksa guru is not an infallible nitya-siddha, he can't "begin

> actual spiritual advancement". That he can't

> be connected to Guru-parampara (Srila Prabhupada, for us).

 

Well it all depends on your definition of guru doesnt it. As Prabhupada

mentions there are differnet gurus. If your goal is Krsna Prema, you need

someone who has it to give it. If you want less then take someone who is

less than a completely self realised soul. In another text I posted the

various levels of advancement from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, and there it is

clearly stated that an uttama adhikary is the one who has Krsna Prema. If

you want less then settle for a Madhyama guru, or you can go for a Kanistha,

or why not settle for my freind Paddy? (address available)

 

Prabhupada says in CC. Madhya 24.330

"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service.

There are three classes of devotee, and the guru must be accepted from the

topmost class... When one has attained the topmost position of

mahabhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like

Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy

the post of a guru."

 

NOI text 5 (p 48+)

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

platform of uttama adhikary... The uttama adhikari or highest devotee, is

one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama adhikari is not

interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has

attained the realised state of unnalloyed Krsna Consciousness. According to

Rupa Goswami, the association and service of such a mahabhagavata, or

perfect vaisnava, are most desirable..."

 

NOI text 5 (p58)

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

platform of uttama adhikary. A neophyte vaisnava or a vaisnava situated on

the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must

be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot

advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient

guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttma adhikary

as a spiritual master."

 

The 'principle' is that if you want Krsna Prema you have to approach one who

has it, surrender to him, serve and please him. Then if he is pleased he

will impart the essence of spiritual knowledge into your heart. That is the

principle.