Varna determination and who trains

[Guest guest]

On 25 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

> > Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> > But in Srila Prabhupada's description below, it appears that the guru

> > would be the one who determines what is the appropriate varna for the

> > disciple to serve Krsna.

> > Once the guru designates the varna of the disciple, then the disciple

> > might even be sent to someone else to train him.

 

 

This interpretation I disagree with. This would be more applicable to an ideal

Vedic community or city with well established and numerous grihasta-brahmana

gurus who know their job in the varnasrama-dharma institution. They teach a

particular varna because that is what brahmanas do.

 

Besides, why guess, Srila Prabhupada told us how it is to happen:

 

 

"Prabhupada: ...This is brahmana.

Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work can we engage them in?

Prabhupada: They will all be teachers. Just like Drona. He was brahmana, but

he was teaching military art to the Pandavas.... So brahmana should be expert

in every kind of knowledge. If he requires, he will become teacher. This is

brahmana.

 

 

 

As far as determining the varna:

 

 

 

"The men of the higher classes - the brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas - do not

beget children in the wombs of lower-class women. Therefore the custom in

Vedic society is to examine the horoscopes of a girl and boy being considered

for marriage to see whether their combination is suitable. Vedic astrology

reveals whether one has been born in the vipra-varna, ksatriya-varna,

vaisya-varna or sudra-varna, according to the three qualities of material

nature." SB 6.2.26.

 

"Brahmanas generally used to become astrologers, Ayur-Vedic physicians,

teachers and priests." C.C. Adi 17.103-4

 

 

Beyond this, for our own society, Srila Prabhupada gave the instructions long,

long ago:

 

"Srila Prabhupada: ...But for management, this division must be there...

Devotee: So in our movement the LEADERS must decide how every devotee and

every resource is engaged properly.

SP: Yes. That is leadership. Which man is fitted for which work.

Atreya: Utilization of all resources, including devotees, funds and

everything?

SP: Yes. The FIRST thing is to see that everyone is engaged. How they are to

be engaged, that requires leadership. But the FIRST business is to engage

everyone." SP Varnasrama MW '74

 

"SP: There is employment even for the women. Gandhi also studied this. Women

should be engaged for weaving, spinning. Everyone should be engaged. That is

management. So our GBC members must see that in every temple everyone is

engaged.

Devotee: That is the meaning of leadership.

SP: Yes, that is the meaning of leadership." SP VAD MW '74

 

 

 

Of course, I will ADD my own "concoction" to this: when Srila Prabhupada talks

about ENGAGING everyone in the foregoing quotes he is talking about engaging

everyone according to the varnasrama-dharma system of which he is speaking

about in the context.

 

 

 

> The varna training is indeed received rather from an another

> experienced person situated in that particular varna,

 

 

Not according to A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami:

 

"Hrdayananda: So for example, if I become a teacher, a first teacher in

varnasrama-dharma colleges, then I must become expert in how to fight and to..

SP: Not all of you, but some of you must learn the art of fighting...

Visnujana: For example, in NV we have brahmanas who are expert in tilling the

soil and taking care of cows and they could travel around and teach others how

to do the same thing just as well.

SP: He is brahmana but he is teaching others how to take care of the cow and

till the ground.

HG: It is not that one teacher has to teach everything then.

SP: No.

HG: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a particular

subject and simply teach that.

SP: Yes."

 

 

 

 

> The interesting thing for me to notice is that ISCKON gurus

> have been accused here for the two "crimes" simultaneously: First

> for their not remaining strictly as spiritual guides but "mixing"

> into disciples' daily life in term of instructing and managing

> them (so that other authorities, like TPs, becomes set aside). And

> second, for their failing to train the disciples into the varnas

> and asramas (what would be day-to-day involvement into disciples'

> activities). So, you turn a "coin" this way or that way, ISCKON

> gurus got to get blamed no matter what.

 

 

Yes. This is their problem.

 

This is only because the ISKCON gurus have not yet in the last 25 years

followed Srila Prabhupada's orders to divide themselves into the varnas to

teach the proper subjects they have developed expertise in.

 

 

"Srila Prabhupada: We are getting so many sannyasis. They should teach. The

teaching should be done by the sannyasis."

 

 

Varna teaching.

 

 

 

In regards to varnasrama-dharma Prabhupada also said:

 

"...There is no need of accepting sannyasa. One has to perform the devotional

activities - that is the real thing. Simply by changing dress one does not

improve unless he takes seriously to the principles of devotional service. But

in Kali yuga they will think, "Because I have changed my dress I have become a

big sannyasi." (laughter) "Because I have got sacred thread now I am big

brahmana". There must be regular training!"

 

"So in this way our society should manage. Not that, "Give me second

initiation, sacred thread, and after taking, business finished, now I am

liberated, let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped."

 

"So these things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussing was

there? Simply talking? No practical?"

 

"So everyone in each center, this system should be introduced and there must

be practical application of the varna-asrama at the same time this program of

devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely."

 

 

 

Makes you see why things have not gone on so nicely over the last 25 years.