Evidence for guru-related-problems during Lord Caitanya's times

[Guest guest]

>

> If we accept the idea that a guru in good standing may fall down, and

> should not be rejected, then why since 1980, Iskcon devotees whose gurus

> fell down have been told to accept another guru. Nowardays in Iskcon, we

> have devotees who have already got 4-5 gurus in this lifetime.

 

Prabhu, the "idea" (as you call it) is that even a guru who

used to be in good standing may also happen to fall down, due

to certain reasons. This has been just confirmed by Bhaktivinode

Thakura, as we all have seen. Wether one will accept this "idea"

of Bhaktivinode, or not, it is entirely up to one's own consideration

and decision.

 

However, that "he should not be rejected" when he falls down, or

deviates, is nobody's idea. Why are you making yourself busy

defeating nobody's ideas?

 

 

>

> This is not to support the ritvik idea, but we should be careful in not

> watering down our Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta by propounding that a

> bona-fide guru may fall down.

 

It would be good if you could supply us with the references for

what you have just stated to be "our Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta".

Where it is stated that a Vaisnava guru is only that one who is

completely above any possibility of falling down? Please. However,

I know that you are able to offer your considerations (so is everybody

else), like you have just done it below:

 

 

 

> It is often said that spiritual

> life is like a razors edge, and if not applied carefully, one runs the

> risk of being cut.

 

Why the same can't be said for a guru? For someone who, in the

words of Bhaktivinode Takura, "was at the time of one's initiation

a Vaisnava conversant in the Absolute Truth".

 

> Because of our laziness in studying and understanding

> the purports of the scriptures, we become blind to the actual

> qualification of a guru.

 

How do you expect from a prospective disciple to, after he/she

succeeded to properly evaluate the prospective guru's qualifications

as someone who is "a Vaisnava conversant in the Absolute Truth",

to be able to also predict that this Vaisnava guru are going to

get into bad association later on, and thus fall down??

 

I guess it is far easier to accuse others for laziness in studying

and understanding the scriptures. Please do not be upset, but I

honestly doubt you would be able to fulfill this demand that you

are placing infront the rest of us "lazies".

 

 

> A guru must be able to deliver the disciple from

> the jaws of maya.

 

How about guru who is simply "a Vaisnava conversant in the

Absolute Truth"? Would this make you satisfied? Would this

qualification of such a Vaisnava be good enough to qualify him

to connect you to the Guru Parampara and thus to Krsna, Mukunda,

Who is the actual Deliverer of His devotees?

 

 

 

> But a guru who is unsure of his own final destination,

> how can I deliver others, expect to simply cheating others.

 

This is the problem of having b&w vision (sorry to say), where

only an ever liberated nittya-siddha from the Spiritual Sky is

seen as a someone capable of connecting us to Krsna, while everybody

lesser than that is seen simply as a -- cheater!

 

Is the guru who is "a Vaisnava conversant in the Absolute Truth" (in

the words of Bhaktivinode Thakura) "simply cheating others" (in the

words of Isvara das)?? Please notice that neither the guru nor

the disciples nor even Isvara das himself know just nothing about the

unfortunate events that are going to occur some several years

or perhaps decades in the future.

 

 

> A pure devotee

> vaisnava guru does not come dime a dozen. But somebody very rare. We will

> be highly fortunate in this lifetime if we come accross such a person.

 

That's right.

 

In the meantime, we got to live our spiritual lives, right? There

is no harm to begin (get initiated into) with the process of

bhakti-yoga, to receive Hare Krsna Maha-mantra, to get connected

with Krsna... To start getting instructed into KC by more advanced

Vaisnavas who are conversant in the Absolute Truth....

 

However, if some nitya-siddha happens to "come across" our way,

in this life time, there is no prohibition to accept him as a guru.

Right away. I don't see any practical use of some "All Or Nothing"

rule when it comes to making the spiritual advancement, that normally

may take many, many life times before it culminates into the perfection.

I wouldn't consider it a bad deal to already have reached the platform

of a madhyama-adhikari or even kanistha-adhikari Vaisnava.

 

Anybody there out playing "All Or Nothing" game? Refusing to begin

with any actual spiritual advancement unless getting only and

exclusively a nitya-siddha from Goloka Vrindavana (that might well

never "come across" in this life) for a guru? Good luck.

 

 

 

ys mnd