How to start varnasrama

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> > Why would they force some bhaktas who are probably NOT brahmanas to go

> > out on "sankirtan" for three years?

 

I dont know how things are now in the west, but there was certainly a lot of

psychological pressure put on devotees to perform to the leaders desires. If

I did not go on sankirtan I was considered heavily in Maya. No one thought

'hey maybe this boy needs to be engaged in another occupation'. If you are

constantly told how fallen you are because you dont fit into the leaders

scheme, it has an effect, especialy when one understands the value of

humility, this was often used as a tool to subjugate.

 

Other leaders resorted to grosser pressure tactics, "if its not a thousand

dollars a day, its not devotional service". These things went on. In China

they can frogmarch you, we cant take it so far, although I did see some

devotees physicaly beaten by their 'leaders'. (the name Kailashchandra comes

to mind, but I might be wrong)

 

> Where did you get the idea of *forcing* some bhaktas on sankirtana for

> three years?

 

I was forced, it is not so unbeleivable. OK I could have stood my ground,

and refused, but I dont think it would have done much good, besides I knew I

was in 'Maya'. I was 16, 17, and not very aggressive. Should an aspiring

monk stand up, against his authorities?

>

> Anybody who has been going on the street to distribute Srila

> Prabhupada's books, will tell you that you can't force anyone

> to do it for that time.

 

Maybe not physicaly force, but soviet style 'cooercion' is quite possible.

>

> Again, the *idea* of doing it for three years (if you are a temple

> devotee) is there. For those for whom it works out, fine. For those for

> whom it would not work out like that, something else will for sure be

> there.

 

> something else will for sure be there.

 

You are so certain? So many gurukula graduates cannot find a meaningfull

service in ISKCON.

 

 

> Where did you get the idea that it is first the "varnasrama college" to be

> going through, before entering the temple life style of the devotional

> service? Is it Srila Prabhupada's, really?

 

That is not what he is saying. They go hand in hand.

>

> Don't expect from the people joining a Hare Krsna temple to be

> doing it so out of their interest to get some occupational, varna

> training. Where are you coming from? (in my "motherland", one would say,

> "Have you dropped here from a Mars?").

 

You have completely misunderstood the text.

>

>

> > And if the bhakta is a vaisya, sudra or ksatriya by nature this has been

> > discovered BEFORE engaging them in some incorrect, unnatural varna

> > wherein they would only become frustrated and leave.

 

You make it sound so extreme. Practicaly ALL of the established religious

groups have years of training before their people become qualified.

Catholics go through FOURTEEN YEARS of training. In some of our centers you

might be luckly to get three weeks of 'training'. We are hopelessy

disorganised in this respect.

 

> Where are you getting your ideas from? Since when some years of

> book distribution (for those who can make it, self-obviously) are

> "incorrect, unnatural varna engagement"?

 

It is just comon sense really. If you are not suited for it, it is not

correct engagement, nor is it natural. is that difficult to understand?

 

> Then you send them all not to a Hare Krsna temple. Maybe to some

> camps, where they will get the professional training.

 

I am really surprised that after so long in this conference, you can still

misunderstand this most basic point. The practical training, and the

spiritual training are done, SIMULTANOUSLY. They compliment each other. We

have to live in this material world, and we have to leave it. Spiritual

training combined with the activities we need to know to feed ourselves, are

an emminently sensible way to learn. We need to see how our entire lives can

be linked to KRSNA Consciousness.

>

> Temples actually, in the classic meaning of "temple", should be

> the place for brahmanas only, engaged in the worship of deities.

> Well, in ISCKON, perhaps also the place for the brahmana-preachers.

>

> Everybody else somewhere else.

 

Ok lads, cant do sankirtan?.... OUT. I thought Prabhupada had a place for us

all?

 

> > This "three years in the temple and sankirtana" is brain-washing and

> > "cult consciousness".

>

> Then don't go living in the temple, if even 3 years of it is too much for

> you, and some brain-washing occultism.

 

Yeah I guess we should just shut up and let this 'perfect' system we have

continue, and hopefully there will still be some devotees left, to do

something. After all everything is just dandy in ISKCON right now, I never

heard of ANY problems at all.

 

>

> Srila Prabhupada was the one who established the distribution of

> his books to be the basis of the temple life and consciousness. To simply

> try to balance it in some more practical form as it used to be so far, is

> to be rather appreciated. Not condemned as a

> "brainwashing".

 

Yes Srila Prabhupada was very happy to see book distribution. He also said

that washing the pots is equal service. All services equall. Eventualy

though the book distribution became 'fund raising' using dubious means, to

pay for sometimes dubious projects.

 

There is no doubt that Srila Prabhupada liked and encouraged book

distribution, but his ultimate vision was much higher than that. I know for

sure that he would not force anyone on the street. The principle of service,

is that it is done with love and devotion spontaneously. As soon as you try

to force in any way, you compromise the bhakti.

 

> > What if the new bhakta was a vaisya by nature from DAY ONE

> > and would have been a fantastic servitor of the cows who are suffering?

>

> Don't use "cow's suffering" as the argument against the idea of

> "3-years temple life" period.

 

Cows have NOTHING to do with three years temple life?

 

Cows are somehow removed from spiritual life?

 

Krsna's cows, are somehow not an important part of becoming Krsna

Consciousness?

 

It is this kind of casual attitude towards Krsnas Cows, that caused all the

abuse in the first place.

 

These are misplaced priorities. I find it hard to beleive that you are so

fanaticaly supporting the idea, that each and every devotee MUST go out on

the street distributing books for 3 years. You are usualy so much against

any kind of 'ordering'. I guess this is just another good debate. The

opposite idea tommorow eh! Or maybe a bit of backtracking?

 

> PS. You just objected to Sthita his "Chairman Mao" expression, but look

> how you are continuing with blasting away anybody's effort to do anything

> in regard to doing something practical on the field.

 

You really have it in for him eh! And all he's doing is trying to remind us

about an entire facet of Krsna Consciousness that has been overlooked since

Prabhupada left.

 

> The only way for somebody to not get shoot down by you, seams to be to do

> it exactly the way you would dictate. Well, yes, then get a "China" for

> yourself.

 

It amazes me that you have it in for Janesvara so much, even though he

quotes from Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim.

 

Cant you just give it a break?

 

Try to offer something positive, instead of always picking holes.

 

I mean this is the VARNASRAMA conference, so shouldnt we expect people to be

kind of into varnasrama. Is it such a crime to remind people who seem to

have misconceptions about what Srila Prabhupada desired.

 

All Janesh does is write texts, you can just delete them if you want, where

is the question of force? Personaly I am very impressed how he has imbibed

Srila Prabhupadas instructions so well, and is so determined not to let the

misconceptions stay.

 

Of course you will probabaly backtrack, and tell us all how much you really

are into varnasrama, and end up accepting most of the points mentioned, and

then move on and find someone else to criticise.

 

Yawn... this is so boring. I have had devotees joining the practial

varnasrama conference, just because they find all this flaming so

unproductive.

 

Janesh, hey I'm sorry, I'm not trying to defend you here, I just cant stand

all this negativity.

 

I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this conference?

 

YS