How to start varnasrama

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> >

> > I was practicaly forced to go on sankirtan, and I hated every second of

> > it, and felt completely useless and discouraged in my Krsna

> > consciousness for YEARS as a result (the tactics used were the

> > psychological demeaning of ones character, forcing one to try to act

> > transcendentaly, even if not actualy qualified).

>

> OK. So let's forget "some time of sankirtana" as the part of

> the basic spiritual activities in Hare Krsna temples?

 

Sankirtana, you mean the congregational chanting of the holy names? I think

you know the answer to that. Actualy I should have said sales of records in

the street, which is what passed for sankirtan in those days. Records that

could not be sold, so we bought them, put false labels on them, and sold

them.

 

> Then, how about brahmacaris going out to streets and bagging

> money from the people, for their gurus? That's the general Vedic

> custom. It is natural for brahmacaris to do it, isn't it?

 

Naturellement! A little austerity goes a long way.

 

> Srila Prabhupada did not wish to force one against his

> > nature. Unfortunately Prabhupada had gone, and I was at the hands of

> > people who did not care for Srila Prabhupadas long term vision. They are

> > gone now.

>

> Well, some got forced sex on them "against their nature", from the side of

> the authorities. And you got traumatized by being forced sankirtan on you,

> against your nature. True, some others may get

> traumatized by being forced to go out in harinama, or to chant

> the Holy Name in public, or even to bow down in the temple room.

> All of these can be viewed as the violation of human rights, indeed.

 

Anything forced is a violation, EXCEPT the force applied by ones guru to the

disciple. As the disciple agrees to be disciplined by the bonafide guru. OF

course the guru must be bonafide, then one can rest assured he will advance.

 

> The kind of spiritual austerities (tapas) from side of a disciple that

> done for the sake of pleasing Guru and Krsna, is not something that got to

> be fitting to our "nature", Samba prabhu.

 

Thank you so much for that little tidbit of wisdom, did I ever contradict

that? The personal relationship between the disciple and guru is sacred. But

if that guru is not following his gurus instructions, what can we say?

 

So that you hated every second

> of it may speak well of your readiness to do something spiritual that is

> "against your nature". On the other hand, yes, none should be *forced* to

> do it against his/her free will.

 

Very good point, we certainly SHOULD perform austerities, and act on the

spritual platform, but artificialy, through the use of pressure? By a person

who later falls down and has his head chopped off? Austerity has to be

performed in the mode of goodness.

 

> Not everyone is ready for the same kind of spiritual austerity. Some would

> want to do only that what goes along their nature (but then one can not

> really speak of the austerity anymore).

 

The point is you cant expect 5th class people to rise to the challenge. Yes

Austerity is needed, in my case I was very fallen, so sending me on that

kind of austerity was misplaced, I am lucky I am still here.

 

I was not sent by the personal instruction of a bonafide guru who knew my

heart, I was sent as a pawn in the collection game. Prabhupada makes it

clear here, that you cannot expect people to be transcendental immediately.

 

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced

them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the

varnasrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people

will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds.

(And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time

the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

 

"...varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

 

See how merciful Srila Prabhupada is.

>

> So this kind of abuses might have been occurring, but that should not be

> the reason to dismiss now the whole idea (idea of *sankirtana* as one of

> the basic spiritual activity/austerity for Hare Krsna monks).

 

Who said anything about dismissing the whole idea?

 

It would be

> an another absurd extreme. If the idea of the Hare Krsna temple as the

> place where "natural" inclinations of so-called "brahmacaris" and "monks"

> are to be exercised, then you missed the "door".

 

So I take it from this then that you dismiss the whole idea of varnasrama

colleges, as an absurd idea? Well that's up to you. Why bother then with a

conference that supports the idea of varnasrama? The college is the first

step.

 

Your door should be then

> some college or some workshop where you will be doing things according

> your "nature", and at home you practice that much of the spiritual

> activities, ant that particular ones, as you find to your likening.

 

Interesting idea, but personaly I like Prabhupads idea of varnasrama

colleges where you learn both SIMULTANEOUSLY. A bit like Chaitanya

mahaprabhu, teaching grammar using Krsna conscious analogies.

 

And

> this is exactly what many of us here are finding now to be our position,

> after having to undergo unnecessarily the pains of hating "every second"

> of the particular temple life reality -- it is in the NATURE of

> *everybody* to live in the temple as a Hare Krsna monk!

 

Sanatana dharma is everyones nature, they just have to be engaged properly

by compassionate sadhus, to encourage them to grow, giving them austerities

that they can handle. A pure devotee can understand the heart of his

disciple, and engage him accordingly. he is very compassionate to the fallen

souls, he knows that force will not work. Threfore, using his intelligence

he gently coaxes the disciple to surrender more and more, with great love

and kindness he cajoles, and provokes his beloved and sincere sisya.

 

It might take a life, maybe more, so the compassionate sadhu, Srila

Prabhupada has requested us to start varnasrama colleges, to bring people to

the mode of goddness, by engaging them properly, so that eventualy they will

be prepared to pass the great tests, that we all have to take so escape from

this material world.

 

YS