Please remove my name out of the 2 varnasram conferences. Many

[Guest guest]

Please remove my name from the two varnasram conferences. Thank you very

much. I have no more time to study all these letters. Your servant, Krsna

kirtana dasi.

-----Message d'origine-----

De : COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) <Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

À : WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net>; COM:

Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Date : samedi 7 août 1999 14:38

Objet : How to start varnasrama

 

 

>[Text 2537788 from COM]

>

>> > Why would they force some bhaktas who are probably NOT brahmanas to go

>> > out on "sankirtan" for three years?

>

>I dont know how things are now in the west, but there was certainly a lot

of

>psychological pressure put on devotees to perform to the leaders desires.

If

>I did not go on sankirtan I was considered heavily in Maya. No one thought

>'hey maybe this boy needs to be engaged in another occupation'. If you are

>constantly told how fallen you are because you dont fit into the leaders

>scheme, it has an effect, especialy when one understands the value of

>humility, this was often used as a tool to subjugate.

>

>Other leaders resorted to grosser pressure tactics, "if its not a thousand

>dollars a day, its not devotional service". These things went on. In China

>they can frogmarch you, we cant take it so far, although I did see some

>devotees physicaly beaten by their 'leaders'. (the name Kailashchandra

comes

>to mind, but I might be wrong)

>

>> Where did you get the idea of *forcing* some bhaktas on sankirtana for

>> three years?

>

>I was forced, it is not so unbeleivable. OK I could have stood my ground,

>and refused, but I dont think it would have done much good, besides I knew

I

>was in 'Maya'. I was 16, 17, and not very aggressive. Should an aspiring

>monk stand up, against his authorities?

>>

>> Anybody who has been going on the street to distribute Srila

>> Prabhupada's books, will tell you that you can't force anyone

>> to do it for that time.

>

>Maybe not physicaly force, but soviet style 'cooercion' is quite possible.

>>

>> Again, the *idea* of doing it for three years (if you are a temple

>> devotee) is there. For those for whom it works out, fine. For those for

>> whom it would not work out like that, something else will for sure be

>> there.

>

>> something else will for sure be there.

>

>You are so certain? So many gurukula graduates cannot find a meaningfull

>service in ISKCON.

>

>

>> Where did you get the idea that it is first the "varnasrama college" to

be

>> going through, before entering the temple life style of the devotional

>> service? Is it Srila Prabhupada's, really?

>

>That is not what he is saying. They go hand in hand.

>>

>> Don't expect from the people joining a Hare Krsna temple to be

>> doing it so out of their interest to get some occupational, varna

>> training. Where are you coming from? (in my "motherland", one would say,

>> "Have you dropped here from a Mars?").

>

>You have completely misunderstood the text.

>>

>>

>> > And if the bhakta is a vaisya, sudra or ksatriya by nature this has

been

>> > discovered BEFORE engaging them in some incorrect, unnatural varna

>> > wherein they would only become frustrated and leave.

>

>You make it sound so extreme. Practicaly ALL of the established religious

>groups have years of training before their people become qualified.

>Catholics go through FOURTEEN YEARS of training. In some of our centers you

>might be luckly to get three weeks of 'training'. We are hopelessy

>disorganised in this respect.

>

>> Where are you getting your ideas from? Since when some years of

>> book distribution (for those who can make it, self-obviously) are

>> "incorrect, unnatural varna engagement"?

>

>It is just comon sense really. If you are not suited for it, it is not

>correct engagement, nor is it natural. is that difficult to understand?

>

>> Then you send them all not to a Hare Krsna temple. Maybe to some

>> camps, where they will get the professional training.

>

>I am really surprised that after so long in this conference, you can still

>misunderstand this most basic point. The practical training, and the

>spiritual training are done, SIMULTANOUSLY. They compliment each other. We

>have to live in this material world, and we have to leave it. Spiritual

>training combined with the activities we need to know to feed ourselves,

are

>an emminently sensible way to learn. We need to see how our entire lives

can

>be linked to KRSNA Consciousness.

>>

>> Temples actually, in the classic meaning of "temple", should be

>> the place for brahmanas only, engaged in the worship of deities.

>> Well, in ISCKON, perhaps also the place for the brahmana-preachers.

>>

>> Everybody else somewhere else.

>

>Ok lads, cant do sankirtan?.... OUT. I thought Prabhupada had a place for

us

>all?

>

>> > This "three years in the temple and sankirtana" is brain-washing and

>> > "cult consciousness".

>>

>> Then don't go living in the temple, if even 3 years of it is too much for

>> you, and some brain-washing occultism.

>

>Yeah I guess we should just shut up and let this 'perfect' system we have

>continue, and hopefully there will still be some devotees left, to do

>something. After all everything is just dandy in ISKCON right now, I never

>heard of ANY problems at all.

>

>>

>> Srila Prabhupada was the one who established the distribution of

>> his books to be the basis of the temple life and consciousness. To simply

>> try to balance it in some more practical form as it used to be so far, is

>> to be rather appreciated. Not condemned as a

>> "brainwashing".

>

>Yes Srila Prabhupada was very happy to see book distribution. He also said

>that washing the pots is equal service. All services equall. Eventualy

>though the book distribution became 'fund raising' using dubious means, to

>pay for sometimes dubious projects.

>

>There is no doubt that Srila Prabhupada liked and encouraged book

>distribution, but his ultimate vision was much higher than that. I know for

>sure that he would not force anyone on the street. The principle of

service,

>is that it is done with love and devotion spontaneously. As soon as you try

>to force in any way, you compromise the bhakti.

>

>> > What if the new bhakta was a vaisya by nature from DAY ONE

>> > and would have been a fantastic servitor of the cows who are suffering?

>>

>> Don't use "cow's suffering" as the argument against the idea of

>> "3-years temple life" period.

>

>Cows have NOTHING to do with three years temple life?

>

>Cows are somehow removed from spiritual life?

>

>Krsna's cows, are somehow not an important part of becoming Krsna

>Consciousness?

>

>It is this kind of casual attitude towards Krsnas Cows, that caused all the

>abuse in the first place.

>

>These are misplaced priorities. I find it hard to beleive that you are so

>fanaticaly supporting the idea, that each and every devotee MUST go out on

>the street distributing books for 3 years. You are usualy so much against

>any kind of 'ordering'. I guess this is just another good debate. The

>opposite idea tommorow eh! Or maybe a bit of backtracking?

>

>> PS. You just objected to Sthita his "Chairman Mao" expression, but look

>> how you are continuing with blasting away anybody's effort to do anything

>> in regard to doing something practical on the field.

>

>You really have it in for him eh! And all he's doing is trying to remind us

>about an entire facet of Krsna Consciousness that has been overlooked since

>Prabhupada left.

>

>> The only way for somebody to not get shoot down by you, seams to be to do

>> it exactly the way you would dictate. Well, yes, then get a "China" for

>> yourself.

>

>It amazes me that you have it in for Janesvara so much, even though he

>quotes from Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim.

>

>Cant you just give it a break?

>

>Try to offer something positive, instead of always picking holes.

>

>I mean this is the VARNASRAMA conference, so shouldnt we expect people to

be

>kind of into varnasrama. Is it such a crime to remind people who seem to

>have misconceptions about what Srila Prabhupada desired.

>

>All Janesh does is write texts, you can just delete them if you want, where

>is the question of force? Personaly I am very impressed how he has imbibed

>Srila Prabhupadas instructions so well, and is so determined not to let the

>misconceptions stay.

>

>Of course you will probabaly backtrack, and tell us all how much you really

>are into varnasrama, and end up accepting most of the points mentioned, and

>then move on and find someone else to criticise.

>

>Yawn... this is so boring. I have had devotees joining the practial

>varnasrama conference, just because they find all this flaming so

>unproductive.

>

>Janesh, hey I'm sorry, I'm not trying to defend you here, I just cant stand

>all this negativity.

>

>I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this conference?

>

>YS

>