Guest guest Posted September 17, 1999 Report Share Posted September 17, 1999 > It seems to me that Samba's presentation wins in this debate. How can we > deny that some word should be used to discribe a devotee who is at the > platform of bhava and prema, unless someone out there can provide us with > a better word then "uttama adhikary", why not use it to discribe them. > > My question for Samba and the others is what to do if there is no such > devotee currently active here on the earth planet? It certainly is a real > possibility given the rarity of such an exalted position. > Ys TS I dont know anything about such a lofty subject, but I did find a few texts from Srila Prabhupada, and also something from Srila Gour Govinda Swami. It seems from these that pure devotees must be present? (I think they are good arguments against ritvikism also!). In a purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.25.38 Srila Prabhupada writes: "Krsna, of course, means Krsna and His confidential devotees; Krsna is not alone. When we speak of Krsna, "Krsna" means Krsna in His name, in His form, in His qualities, in His abode and in His associates. Krsna is never alone, for the devotees of Krsna are not impersonalists. For example, a king is always associated with his secretary, his commander, his servant and so much paraphernalia." Krsna is here, Srila Prabhupada brought him to us, gave him to us to worship is he not always present in one form or another? Srila Prabhupada says in Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.25 Purport, regarding the coming to Dhruva of Narada Muni: "... It may be explained in this way: The Supreme personality of Godhead is present in everyones heart, and as soon as He understands that a living entity is serious about entering devotional service, he sends His representative. In this way Narada was sent to Dhruva Maharaja. This is explained in the Caitanya-caritamrita. Guru-Krsna prasade paya bhakti lata-bija: by the grace of the spiritual master and Krsna, one can enter into devotional service. Because of Dhruva Maharaja's determination, Krsna, the Supersoul, immediately sent his representative, Narada to initiate him." (I guess if our determination is less, we have to wait longer!?) In Adi 1.49 Prabhupada quotes from Bhagavad gita: "To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me". Srila Gour Govinda Swami also quotes from the Upanishads: nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrute tanum svam "He who is there in the heart, that is Paramatma, or the Supersoul, who is known as caitya-guru, assumes a body and appears in this external world as guru". Maharaja goes on to say: "So before whom will He appear? He who is crying in his heart how to understand this paramatma-tattva. "Who is there to help me understand?" The Lord in the form of the Paramatma knows it and therefore that Paramatama, or the Supersoul assumes a body and appears before that devotee as guru. Guru Krsna-rupa, this is sastra-pramana, and therefore we say janme janme prabhu." Surely there must be pure devotees present? Otherwise one would have to assume, in the light of the above texts, that no one is seriously interested in Krsna Consciousness! Srila Prabhupada himself was not recognised as a pure devotee by many Gaudiya math devotees. Also more recently it seems obvious that Srila Gour Govinda Swami was a pure devotee in our midst. In the Srimad Bhagavatam 9.13.11 Prabhupada says in a purport: "The supreme personality of Godhead can be seen or unseen according to his own transcendental desire; similarly, a devotee, being jivan mukta, can be seen or not, as he chooses". Krsna does say that he will fulfill the desires of the living entities, and he makes it clear that if we are serious about advancing in spiritual life he will send his representative. In CC. Madhya 22.71 in the purport Srila Prabhupada says: "Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna Consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories - uttama, madhyama and Kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikary, or second class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The Neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed. It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikary, a second class devotee is fully convinced of Krsna Consciousness, but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with non devotees because he he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second class devotee even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradualy become a first class devotee by studying the sastra *and* associating with a first class devotee. However if the second-class devotee *does not* advance himself by associating with a first class devotee, he makes no progress." (emphasis mine). In a Bhagavatam lecture on 12th Nov 1972 in Vrndavana, Prabhupada said. aprasaigan mama verya-saavido bhavanti hat-karea-rasayanau kathau... Therefore, if we do not associate with the advanced devotees, uttama-adhikari, if we simply want to remain in the lowest stage of devotional service, then we are not making progress. Then we shall simply enjoy the material field, without entering into the spiritual platform. Although Srila Prabhupada may not stress these things in every line of his writings, the information is there. It seems to me (for what my opinion is worth!) that these quotes are a wonderful argument against ritvikism, and the excuses that some devotees make for leaving ISKCON. If we want Krsna, if we want pure devotees, if we really desire them, Krsna will arrange! Your servant Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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