Guest guest Posted September 28, 1999 Report Share Posted September 28, 1999 This is the third portion of Nikhilananda Das prabhu's comments regarding Varnashram Dharma (VAD), in which he concludes his rebuttal of how his remarks were characterized by Sriman Hari Sauri das prabhu: ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > Thus his statements that only 50% of his work was done were > a recognition that much more work is needed and that he was > leaving it to the future generations to do it. We cannot > write it off as a statement of humility that need not be > taken seriously. I never said that it should not be taken seriously. I only wanted to answer those who try to imply that Prabhupada failed, which is not true. Some of them quoted Prabhupada's statement that his work was left half finished like that. They take advantage of Prabhupada's humility, exactly as some people interpret Prabhupada's statement of apology to all of his godbrothers on his deathbed to mean that therefore Prabhupada admitted he had falsely offended his godbrothers and his god brothers had been right. This thinking is offensive, because Prabhupada actually said it out of deep Vaishnava humility and to give a good example that one should seek to make peace before one dies. In actual fact Prabhupada never committed offences against his god brothers; they (some, at least) are the ones who criticized him and offended him needlessly, as Prabhupada mentioned a few times, both in his books and when Prabhupada first came to Mayapur. They criticized Prabhupada for accepting female disciples, and many other unfortunate critical remarks were made. Prabhupada even maintained a fund to help his preaching godbrothers and I myself was once assisting in this work in Mayapur. By way of thanks, some of them constantly interfere in ISKCON's affairs and subtly diminish Prabhupada, so we have to clarify the real facts from time to time and we should know where these uncertainties and doubts about Prabhupada originally come from. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > It was a call to his disciples, not an admission of defeat > or personal insufficiency. Nikhilananda: That's how I see it also. Agreed. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri : > Our movement will ever remain small and ineffectual, playing > no significant role in the lives of the general population, > as long as we ignore VAD. I cannot see that we ever ignored VAD. We started with the four ashramas just as Prabhupada has taught us. If, however, we jump into a caste system, we will draw much more misunderstanding in society and be considered a Hindu fascist sect. That will be the best recipe for remaining small. We have to first create a wider congregation and that is being done. From that everything else will develop, including the VAD system, but it needs time and cannot be done artficially, in a passionate manner. The farm projects and village communities will also play a big role in the future. So far, I believe, ISKCON has moved in the right direction. Most of the problems which we did face are not a result of four castes missing but of lack of experience, for example, about the nature of pedophiles, and a generalized lack of support for householders, the one ashram that maintains the three others. Pedophiles are so generally from before they entered our society, if you read all the reports carefully and ask experts like Hariballabha Dasi prabhu and her professional advisors. Pedophiles and homosexuals are not created because of repression of sex desires. A normally disposed man will not become a pedophile through celibacy. That is complete nonsense. Ask the experts in that field. So we simply have to keep preaching, improve our integrity in good human qualities and become more mature. Also, many Prabhupada disciples were practically driven away by those in absolute-power positions and by elitism. Such absolute-power positions and elitism will cause at least as many problems, even in a varna society, only the labels will be different. Therefore the human problems should be faced first and elitism should be overcome. A leader should not just be judged by his quantitative performance (which is anyway due to help from so many others, for which he takes all the credit) but a successful GBC representative should also be judged by how many of his godbrothers and godsisters he actually cared for and enabled to stay with us. For me that is real success, not the millions of dollars, which come and can be lost again. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > We can go on, no doubt, and that will still be a success > if we can keep on making a few brahmanas to maintain the > spiritual standards in the face of the degredation of > modern society. But the realization of Prabhupada's dream > for the whole world to change its course towards spiritual > attainments rather than materialism will come when we can > show all those who are not brahminically inclined how to > dovetail their propensities to the attainment of the > spiritual goal of life. This has to be demonstrated > practically, and so far we have not done this. It may take a few generations to be realistic, so let us not blame anyone. Srila Prabhupada wanted that even those who are not brahminically inclined learn at least some higher qualities step by step. "Human life is meant to understand we are brahman (not this body)." No matter which varna, this is the beginning of human life. The last personal instruction we received from Srila Prabhupada when we had his darshan for one week in England, just before he departed, was just this: "You simply preach that we are not this body but eternal spirit soul. Simply understand that life is eternal." This is our philosophy. I understood from this that it is the basis of everything else. If people still think they are this body, then the so-called VAD will only be an oppressive and complicated entanglement, as we are seeing in India. In fact, all of our acaryas including Lord Caitanya were known as being opposed to the caste system by birth and not placing much importance to any caste designation. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj and others were vehemently criticized by orthodox Hindus for their neglect of caste designations. And I see, unfortunately, that others now criticize Prabhupada for the same reason. We should not support them. Most of this criticism and the trouble we face in ISKCON comes originally from India; you should know the tree from which the poison has sprung. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > In ISKCON we currently try to bring people to the highest > standard in six months or one year, and then let them "fall > down" to their natural level, often feeling rejected and > with a sense of deep personal failure. They reject ISKCON due > to the negativity of their experience of "falling down." As mentioned I consider elitism the root cause of that evil. A varna system of labels will not change it. The problem starts with, for example, giving those Prabhupad disciples who accept a guru position or sannyasi position -all- respect with an absolute sense of infallibility, which puts too much expectation on them, while many other "ordinary" Prabhupada disciples (unless they have a management power position) are treated neglectfully, even often extremely disrespectfully. This designation consciousness and lack of culture cannot be compensated for with caste labels. It can only be dealt with by more training, more honesty and more stress on values which apply equally for everyone. Being humble, caring and trustworthy is the same for a vaishya and for a shudra, because these are devotee qualities. Also, why should somone who has a big position be less humble, less reliable, less open to constructive and pragmatic talks, etc. Often devotees used to think, "This devotee has all good qualities, beacuse he is in such a big position," instead of thinking, "If he has all good qualities then he is in a great position." -- a difference like day and night. Often our guru-disciple relationships are similarly superficial. That is why Krishna arranges for big wake-up experiences from time to time, so that we develop some more depth. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > Why not have a system where a person is simply and gradually > brought UP making gradual progression and commitment through > the scientific process of VAD? We already have that system in our congregational preaching; not everyone has to become a pure devotee in one or two years. So where is the problem? In Slovenia, the number of seriously practicing congregational members who live at home and work, etc., is 30 times larger than the number of full-time temple devotees. Some take initiation after five years, some after twelve years, some never. But they are all treated as equally valuable and they are offered a great variety of support programs. Some are journalists, some look for a career in the government or as lawyers. I still fail to see why all this is useless. Just because they do not carry the vaishya or sudra badge? Some of them will perhaps become government ministers. Still I doubt that they will introduce a caste sytem in society, that's unrealistic. We may have to wait two or three generations and have to do much more groundwork for that. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > VAD means constant encouragement; people are positively > helped to make advancement from whatever level they are on, > incrementally improving to higher and higher levels. There > is no "fall down," no sense of guilt, no sense of personal > failure, no condemnation from one's peers. Only encouragement. That is the idea of congregational preaching. That does not depend on a system of castes which in itself carries the risk of new feelings of guilt and discrimination, as we see in india. VAD will have to be very carefully established to avoid those Hindu mistakes. If some hot-heads want to rush into it now, then good night everyone. Without me. Hari Sauri : > Rupa Goswami says that one has to be always enthusiastic and > at the same time patient. VAD is an effective and necessary > structure which provides for this. And Prabhupada clearly > said that ISKCON has to implement it. Yes, but Prabhupada never said that it has to be done TODAY and he also never said that we should start by giving all devotees a caste name and title. That could even be discriminatory and offensive. We already have enough problems from elitism among the ashramas and should get rid of that problem first. ========================================================================== Hari Sauri: > If ISKCON would give such devotees a place to stay without > causing huge guilt complexes in them, they would not need > to go somewhere else in order to justify their sense > gratification by some new age philosophy and in this way > escape their guilt complex. ISKCON cannot give those who do not follow the four regulative principles a place to stay in the temple. A temple is where a high standard is maintained; without this, everything is lost. But they can stay around the temple, as already occurs. I agree that such wider communities are needed and most helpful. In America I see often that a whole part of town is populated by householders and these are the nicest communities, certainly no one pokes their noses into the householders beds all the time, to make them feel "guilty". So I do not see the problem, even now. Are there really still temples which make householders feel guilty ? I see even gurus going to cinemas with the grihasthas. Yesterday a sannyasi went jogging with me. Where is the problem? Regarding self-sufficiency, most temples welcome it if the householders are financially independent. Householders, however, should cooperate more and help each other more; there is often too much spirit of competition and mercilessness instead of actually sharing and helping, as even many Christians do. In that we have a long way to go and the temples and leaders should work in this direction, to encourage right values, instead of encouraging jealousy and competition. And the devotees should appreciate more the value of talking to each other, also about practical and personal problems and not see it as a waste of time or as a break in Krishna katha. To try to understand and help a devotee may be more pleasing to Krishna then even worship of Krishna Himself. That is where we can start to love. Without love, without Vaishnava seva, actually coming sincerely from the heart, the whole varna system and other grand words only become so many empty shells. In this regard I agree with Harikesa Prabhu. Only I see the way to change it from within iSKCON, not from without. And if someone is actually empowered to introduce such changes he can do it also without giving up his responsibilities. Of course if somone does not want to manage but has to do so and does not find peace of mind then it is understandable that he or she only wants to remain outside of ISKCON for some time, simply to find some peace and become a little bit normal. So we should make it easier for each other to stay in ISKCON by accepting the individual's needs and actually helping the individual accordingly. After all, a society rests only on the strength of its indvidual members. ========================================================================== > If we want to make a house where the whole world can live > in, I feel we really have to become more realistic, > tolerant, and understanding. Prabhu, since this is a time for us all to try to be realistic and honest, forgive me for openly saying that I missed your attempts to understand my text on VAD and my actual concerns. It seems like you only read the first three lines and then brushed it away with some simple, well-known quotes. When I actually wrote that, I felt misunderstood and frustrated like never before and even thought of withdrawing from ISKCON because you did not seem to care much. You made no attempt to talk to me by, for example, phoning me, to straighten out the misunderstanding. Instead you wrote me off as a lost cause, published fragments of my text and only presented your version. Had it not been for Rohini Suta Prabhu who talked to me and encouraged me to stay, I would not have been with you any more for a long time. But who cares? At least then you can always be right and no one will argue with you. Somewhat sad, Prabhu! ========================================================================== Hari Sauri : > I will add here that a system where initiations (the taking > of vows) are only offered to those who after several years > -- maybe 5 or 10 -- prove themselves capable of following > them, would perhaps be more effective and realistic. Others > can be encouraged to gradually progress, incrementally > increasing their committment as time goes by. That system of only giving initiation after many years is already followed by some (or many) gurus. Nothing new. My personal conclusion is that without less self-centredness and more cultivation and training of proper character qualities and such values as normal human compassion, the introduction of varnas will not change much. They will only serve to cover up our human deficiencies. I see the difference between, let's say, the temples of HH Radhanath Swami in Bombay where the devotees receive initiation after many years of good and rigorous training in proper behaviour and heart qualities, and the temples in Bengal like Calcutta and Mayapur where the devotees behave often quiet nasty, although Mayapur claims to be a VAD project. So VAD alone is not complete if we do not understand the essence of it and only intriduce a vain, dogmatic structure. In conclusion, introduction of VAD is not done by making more and more compromises and less training, or by accepting all kinds of people to live in the temples but rather just the opposite: VAD will be introduced by more vigorous training, being more selective and giving more weight to quality first. That is, as far as I saw in all of Prabhupada's conversations and lectures, the sum and substance of VAD: More character training. Your humble servant Nikhilananda Dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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