Why Do Seemingly Advanced Devotees Fall?

[Guest guest]

> It might be that there is also something wrong on the side of the

> observer. A truly advanced and humble vaisnava sees that everybody is more

> Krishna conscious and advanced than him. It might be that the observer is

> not able to appreciate his own godbrothers

 

 

 

 

TOUCHE!!!!

[Guest guest]

Dear Srila,

How are you doing? You did not give me much of your association when I was

in Burckley. I will have taken pleasure talking with you. But I admit, I am

not so easy going. With the years, it is become worst. Anyway, I read your

posting and I found like giving you some hasty comments. I hope you will see

the good of it and spare me from being upset.

 

So read again your quote here:

 

> "The conclusion is that transcendental attachment is so powerful that

> -IF- (always stressed by me)

> such attachment is seen manifested even in some common man, by the

> association of a pure devotee -It CAN- bring one to the perfectional

> stage. -BUT- such attachment for Krsna cannot be invoked in a

> person without his being -SUFFICIENTLY- blessed by the association of pure

> devotees.

 

And this when the rare presence of a pure devotee is available! Building on

this, it is said that even an instant of such association -CAN- be enough.

I am sure you are alluding to NM in this posting. Since you are familiar

with his movement, you can therefore begin counting and naming the devotees

who got such blessings. It will be a good exercise of glorification. From

your past experience, this time it will be easier and beneficial. I believe

that glorification is one of the easiest way for BTG

 

> "Transcendental attachment, either shadow attachment or *para*, can be

> nullified by different degrees of offenses at the lotus feet of pure

> devotees. If the offense is very serious, then one's attachment becomes

> almost nil. And if the offense is not very serious, then one's attachment

> can become second class or third class.

 

It is not easy, isn't? Could you conclude about the chance to get something

serious about such association when possible?

 

> "A Second Chance"

 

I guess at the speed that we're going we may need a few more.

 

> "If, however, it is seen that a person has developed a high standard of

> devotion without having undergone even the regulative principles, it is to

> be understood that his status of devotional service was achieved in a

> former life.

 

Who is Srila Prabhupada taking as an example, do you know Prabhu? Why are

you giving this quote? Do you mean that Bhavananda, Kirtananda or even

Harikesh have developed a "high standard" in the past? Does a "high

standard" refer to saintliness? Then a definition of what is a saint could

be given so that we could clarify. I read sometimes your texts and I don't

feel comfortable because of the way you reason. Your logic is based on

"spiritual" postulates. You suppose that high standard, pure devotee, soul,

saint, etc. are universal definitions. There is no such simple formula. In

the material world every thing is relative. J.C. Mohammed, Buddha, Krsna,

were not accepted by everyone. So was Prabhupada. Will you say that all the

disciples of his Godbrothers should have followed Srila Prabhupada and

joined ISKCON when their guru did not recognize the Jagatguru? Yes in

theory, not in practice. You cannot make an institution with its rules and

dogmas and then expect every member to oversee them at any time. Therefore

to be effective, we define words according to the mission of the

institution. For these reasons, a saint from a Christian, a Muslim, or the

different sampradayas view will be defined differently.

 

> For some reason or other it had been temporarily stopped,

> most probably by an offense committed at the lotus feet of a devotee.

 

So if this was a high standard, -what we have seen in our movement-, imagine

what a Jimmy Swaggart will had been if he had become a devotee; a

saktyavesavatar!

 

>now with a good second chance, it has again begun to develop.The conclusion

> is that steady progress in devotional service can be attained only in the

> association of pure devotees." (end quote)

>

> All these devotees -- especially the leaders -[...] undoubtedly became >

graced with inconceivable *guru-krpa*, the causeless mercy of a pure >

devotee.

 

"Undoubtedly..." It does not cost us anything to believe it. We may even

polish our faith by being sentimental. Theoretically it is certainly more

rewarding than by being doubtful. We made that our philosophy. (That was the

main point in Occam's Razor.)

 

 

> Important Lessons

>

> As we mature in Krsna consciousness, we must learn to distinguish between

> *suddha-bhakti*, pure devotion in its true form (*svarupa-siddhi-bhakti*)

> from its likeness *bhakti-abhasa* -- either as shadow attachment

> (*aropa-siddhi-bhakti*) or transcendental imitative attachment

> (*sanga-siddhi-bhakti*), always being careful to avoid offenses at the

> lotus feet of pure devotees.

 

Once just for the pleasure of a discussion, I asked a devotee: "I don't get

it? Is full knowledge not necessary to go back home?" The answer was: "I

thought it was love of Krsna that was necessary." (It prompts me to write an

exhaustive answer. I have to work a little bit more on it and I will send it

on an appropriate forum, one day...)

 

>

> "Staying in the fire," therefore means always seeking the association of

> truly advanced devotees, *suddha-bhaktas*. This is what Prabhupada

> recommends above in the "Nectar of Devotion," as throughout all of his

> books.

 

"Staying in the fire"? What is this definition now? You mean by this

expression a kind of heavy "purification"? Does this purification look like

the chance of success you described above? You are an old devotee, you have

some experience of what you are talking about. Can you explain what you mean

by purification? You saw it in action, as you wrote it. So you can talk and

explain how it works? You certainly read the study of Dhira Govinda? That

could help you. I am very eager to see the result "alive" of such

purification. You remember the analogy of the glass of water and the ink?

Prabhupada gave that example. So you can meditate and illumine me :-).

I am saying that because in one hand you don't see much purification in

ISKCON but you are talking like if it was a reality that is existing

somewhere else. Well, that's why I say I feel inconfortable about your

writing; I have hard time to follow you.

 

> "Staying in the fire," therefore means always seeking the association of

> truly advanced devotees.

 

What is needed for the qualification, purity, knowledge or love? Or all of

them together? Some will resume it complexity by having recourse to: "it is

immotivated mercy"

Ys