Breaks in the Link: Reinitiation or Reinstatement

[Guest guest]

Srila writes:

> << "The mantra's effect becomes enhanced the more we understand what we are

chanting and we feel some personal relationship with it. Sambandha-jnana is

therefore essential."

 

On 10 Oct 1999, Mahatma das wrote:

> How's that?

 

 

Oct 5 (VNN) — (from Sanga sadhusanga (AT) swami (DOT) org)

Q u e s t i o n: In the last Sanga posting, 9/29 'daiva Varnasram,' you wrote,

'It is considered that the mantra is empowered by the disciplic succession. If

there is a break in the succession this broken link must be repaired'. Are you

referring to harinama or gayatri mantra and by 'disciplic succession,' do you

mean the diksa disciplic succession?

 

Swami Tripurari: Yes, I am referring to gayatri mantra and the diksa

succession.

 

Q u e s t i o n: Could you elaborate on the statement, 'It is considered that

the mantra is empowered by the disciplic succession.'

 

Swami Tripurari: Well, this is the general idea of the diksa disciplic

succession. It is considered part of the 'pancaratrika marga.' When we speak

of a parallel, zig-zag siksa lineage, we speak of a Bhagavata succession. The

Bhagavata marga is one of realized devotees, whereas those in the pancaratra

marg may not always be so. The diksa mantra falls under the pancaratra marg.

It is found in this type of literature, etc.

This line should be wholesome. That is best.

 

If, however, it is not so, and one compensates for that by taking shelter of

a present day siksa guru representing the Bhagavata marg, one will

remain connected. In this case it may not be necessary for the disciple

to receive the mantra again from the siksa guru, but it will be necessary

for the disciple to take absolute shelter of that siksa guru. In doing so, the

disciple may want to hear the mantra from this guru, and that is fine and

understandable." (end citation)

 

"If there is a break in the succession this broken link must be repaired'."

We can note that these "breaks" can be of two orders: a) a break from *above*,

or by the predecessor guru; or b) breaks from *below*, by the subordinate

follower.

 

In the case of a), when the predecessor guru fails, there is cause for

REINITIATION.

 

In the case of b) the follower lapses in his practice of KC, then there is

cause for REINSTATEMENT.

 

In either situation and regardless of circumstance, association with and

taking shelter of advanced Vaisnavas (ie, as a siksa-guru) is always

recommended.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,

Dasnanudasa,

Srila dasa

 

 

> Better

> But regarding a brahmin's fall down and getting gayatri mantra again, I

> brought this point up to Nitai Chand Swami and he said tht Bon Maharaja was

never reinitiated by Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

????

[Guest guest]

>>>>Oct 5 (VNN) - (from Sanga sadhusanga (AT) swami (DOT) org)

 

 

>>>>Swami Tripurari: Yes, I am referring to gayatri mantra and the diksa

>>>>succession.

 

 

 

>I hope this helps.

 

 

 

Does Swami Tripurari have any authority for

us, poor ISKCON followers?

 

I checked his bio on VNN - apparently not.

 

I feel that we'd better be off listening to Prabhupada's instructions.

 

 

And so Swami's opinion, though valued, is not a proof of anything.

 

 

Whether he's right or wrong.

 

 

 

Ys

Sitalatma das

 

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[Guest guest]

> And so Swami's opinion, though valued, is not a proof of anything.

>

 

 

It's very hard to take a "sannyasi" who gets caught in a shopping mall eating

ice cream with a beautiful female disciple seriously. It would be much more

prudent to ignore him and seek out higher association and instruction.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Oct 1999, Bhuta-bhavana Dasa wrote:

 

> > And so Swami's opinion, though valued, is not a proof of anything.

> >

>

>

> It's very hard to take a "sannyasi" who gets caught in a shopping mall

eating ice cream with a beautiful female disciple seriously. It would be much

more prudent to ignore him and seek out higher association and instruction.

>

 

 

 

 

But I though anyone not working within ISKCON was automatically considered an

uttama-adhikari. Boy, is pure devotion confusing or what?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 15 Oct 1999, Sitalatma das wrote:

> Does Swami Tripurari have any authority for us, poor ISKCON followers?

 

The *truth* should be self-evident, in and of itself. If not, you can present

your doubts and we can discuss further.

 

> Whether he's right or wrong.

 

Whether something is "wrong or right" may not be the appropriate question to

ask however. *HOW MUCH* is this "true," warranted or confirmed by different

authoriites and from various perspectives should be our query. This is the

bona fide procees of truth-seeking. Not that, " I don't like the speaker, so I

will reject whatever he says." What kind of truthful knowledge you get by

that process? "I believe...," that's all you'll get.

 

> I feel that we'd better be off listening to Prabhupada's instructions.

> And so Swami's opinion, though valued, is not a proof of anything.

 

Canakya says that a *wise* person can take truth even if comes from a stock of

poison or from a low-class man. Conversely, "Even the devil can cite

scripture." We have witnessed *within* the movement and in the name of Srila

Prabhupada so many devilish philosophies appearing. But they have their list

of quotes, "Prabhupada says..." to back up their perverted theories -- so much

NONSENSE in the name of Prabhupada. So who is actually wise and

knowledgeable, the onus is on each one of us to discover who is offering the

necessary truth for us to progress.

 

I would also be very careful about publicly disparaging a superior Vaisnava,

HH Tripurari Swami, who is on the level of your spiritual master. You will not

gain any blessings or wisdom by such a haughty or fault-finding mentality,

"What can this guy tell us?"

 

 

With respect and affection,

 

Srila dasa

 

PS: Please consider my other post to Sthita-dhi Prabhu. It was meant for you

as well.

[Guest guest]

On 16 Oct 1999, Srila Dasa wrote:

 

>

> I would also be very careful about publicly disparaging a superior Vaisnava,

HH Tripurari Swami, who is on the level of your spiritual master. You will not

gain any blessings or wisdom by such a haughty or fault-finding mentality,

"What can this guy tell us?"

>

>

 

 

Again, it seems funny how devotees are being lectured to be oh so careful

about what is said regarding a devotee outside of ISKCON 'on the level of your

spiritual master', and in the next breath these same devotees are relentlessly

lectured to tolerate any darn thing mentioned regarding 'your spiritual

master'.

 

As for myself, I don't recall saying anything about this particular swami in

question -- I can barely recall ever having met him -- yet I will make a

comment about the apparent hypocricacy being preached with regards to what

might be considered a proper and/or inproper practical anaylsis of devotional

service. To me, this mentality appears childish, especially when considered

how it is being done in the name of escoteric advancement.

 

Funny stuff.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

PS I wish to correct myself. It is actually more boring than childish, or

should I say boorish?

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Bhuta-bhavana (Dasa) ACBSP (Sandpoint ID - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2702948 from COM]

>

> > And so Swami's opinion, though valued, is not a proof of anything.

> >

>

> It's very hard to take a "sannyasi" who gets caught in a shopping mall eating

> ice cream with a beautiful female disciple seriously. It would be much more

> prudent to ignore him and seek out higher association and instruction.

 

What flavor was he eating?

[Guest guest]

> What flavor was he eating?

>

 

Good question. With an answer we can deconstruct his personality type.

 

LOL!

[Guest guest]

> > Does Swami Tripurari have any authority for us, poor ISKCON followers?

>

>The *truth* should be self-evident, in and of itself. If not, you can

>present

>your doubts and we can discuss further.

 

 

You mean doubts on authority of Swami Tripurari?

 

I don't really want to go into it.

I might miss a lot, but just to save time and be practical...

 

>bona fide procees of truth-seeking. Not that, " I don't like the speaker,

>so I

>will reject whatever he says."

 

 

You probably misunderstood me. I don't have any opinion on what he says, I

don't accept or reject it. That's not the point.

 

I was just felt uncomfortable with the way you present him.

 

Something in

 

"Swami says...

 

Is that clear?" mood.

 

 

>Canakya says that a *wise* person can take truth even if comes from a stock

>of

>poison

 

If you'd introduced him like that I wouldn't say a word :-)

(awful comparison, sorry).

 

 

 

 

>I would also be very careful about publicly disparaging a superior

>Vaisnava,

>HH Tripurari Swami, who is on the level of your spiritual master.

 

That's also not the best - I got HKS attached to my COM name...

 

 

 

 

I publicly apologize if my wording sounded offensive to your, and everybody

else's, ears. I had no intention of disparaging any vaishnavas.

 

I just pointed out that this particular devotee's words shouldn't be given

as a final opinion in that particular conference (topical discussions). How

did it ended up on VD I don't know.

 

 

You will not

>gain any blessings or wisdom by such a haughty or fault-finding mentality,

>"What can this guy tell us?"

 

I'm trying my best to uproot that mentality.

 

But thanks for pointing out.

 

Ys

Sitalatma das

 

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