Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to you all. Further to the previous posting on the subject, this posting gives some more facts which will help a Mumukshu to get rid of many misconceptions which he may be having. Sleep, dream and waking are INDEPENDENT experiences. Each is essentially REALITY in ITS ENTIRETY, being an expression of the REAL. Ego and non-ego have a common source and have original kinship in Pure Consciousness. The world and the egos appearing in each state have a real value only WITHIN THE STATE and none beyond it. The world is not a creation but a manifestation of Pure Consciousness, an expression of LIFE. A STATE GIVES RISE TO AND INCLUDES ITS WORLD WHILE NO WORLD CAN GIVE RISE TO OR INCLUDE A STATE. What is known as the world, including our body and mind, COMES and GOES with our Waking. The world is real in and for the state in which it appears, and which it cannot transcend. To examine the three states IMPARTIALLY one has necessarily to take up a position, not in any one of the three states, but as a WITNESS to all the three, i.e. as the witnessing principle standing OUT of the three states. * * * With warm and respectful regards Sreenivasa Murthy Why was V. Sehwag warned by the BCCI? Share your knowledge on Answers India Send instant messages to your online friends - NOW Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 What you say of dream state as an echo of the waking state is purely from the empirical viewpoint. One must know that after having a heavy meal, one feels dream hunger. That dreams are made of only the materials of the waking state is only half truth. I hundred percent agree with the views of Sri Murthy that the waking and dream egos are entirely different, there being no interconnectedness between them. Dream state is a waking state in its own right. One cannot judge the dream state from the standpoint of the waking state, in view of the seeming permanence of the waking state, which experience is had even in the dream state. praNAms Sri Shankararaman prabhuji Hare Krishna I whole heartedly agree with your observation prabhuji...infact, the traditional advaita holds this view firmly based on shruti vAkya which equates both waking & dreaming state by saying saptAnga yEkOnaviMshati mukhaH (mAndUkya shruti)..indicating both states are *real* in its own realm...gaudapAda, also in his kArikA refutes the theory of waking state's sway over the dreaming state....The general belief that dreams are the product of impressions created in waking can be acceptable, as you said only vyAvaharically. But if you strictly objectively analyse these two state, the assertion that "dream is mere *vAsanA-s* of waking state" is not at all a proven fact. gaudapAda argues in kArika that if we say, waking is kAraNa (cause) & it is true (sat) & dream is the kArya (effect) & is false (asat), it is illogical to say true (sat/waking) has given birth to false (asat /dream). Because we cannot say true cause can give birth to false effect. Unless this problem resolved we cannot say true waking state's vAsana-s are causing the false or asat dreams. So prabhuji, irrespective of who said what!! your observation is very much valid & within the scope of traditional teaching of our Acharya-s... Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair > wrote:From Sankarraman Thank you sir for so much as having considered it fit on your part to reply to me. I am offering my replies in capital letters below your statements. [i don't have to repeat that the soul of your agreement with Sri Murthy derives sustances from a half-lie just as my disagreement does from a half-truth. Shri Murthy's passage I commented on related to dream and waking experiences and not to dream and waking egos. Please don't mix issues.] _____________________________ I HONESTLY DO NOT INTEND TO MIX ISSUES. I BELIEVE THAT WAKING AND DREAM EXPERIENCES ARE NOTHING BUT THE EXPRESSION OF THE RESPECTIVE EGOS IDENTIFYING THE WITNESS WITH THE INTELLECT. SO THE EXPERIENCE IS SYNONYMOUS WITH THE EGO, THE DISTINCTION BEING ONLY ACADEMICAL __> [That is the conclusion of your 'clear' reading. Don't bring in Bhagwan here. Waking, whatever type of waking it is (i.e. dream- waking, dream-dream-waking etc.,) is the only point of view granted to us mortals to judge dream and deep sleep.] _MY UNDERSTANDING OF BHAGHAVAN IS ONLY THAT MUCH. SINCE BHAGHAVAN IS A GREAT MASTER WHAT IS WRONG IN QUOTING HIM? SOME OTHER LEARNED PERSON MAY CONTRADICT ME. >Even one waking state is not related to the other. [i like and have always d to that conclusion. However, let us thank Heavens for this seeming continuity of ours where at least you can have the satisfaction of countering me and I can of answering you.] ______________________ I AM ONLY ARTICULATING MY VIEWS, MY UNDERSTANDING. I DON'T INTEND TO COUNTER YOU. IT IS A SAD CONCLUSION. AT MY AGE I AM BEYOND SUCH TRIVIAL PLEASURES. SINCE MY KNOWLEDGE OF VEDANTA IS NOT PERFECT I CAN ONLY EXPRESS MY HONEST UNDERSTANDING. YOURS EVER IN BHAGHAVAN SANKARRAMAN Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Respected friends, Pranam! Shaiva Agamas have an answer and a practical method. As per Abhinavagupta: " Recognition means libration" Trika Yoga tells abour "Divine Grace". In :Sandhi - Junction point, your journey of realization begins. Virendra. Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair > wrote: Namaste Shri Sankarramanji. Please see within . __________________________ >What you say of dream state as an echo of the waking state is purely from the empirical viewpoint. [i didn't say it is an echo. I only showed, with examples, that dreams have relevance to waking.] _______________ >One must know that after having a heavy meal, one feels dream hunger. That dreams are made of only the materials of the waking state is only half truth. [A half-truth has some truth in it. That would make the opposite view that dreams have no relevance to waking a half-lie.] ______________________ >I hundred percent agree with the views of Sri Murthy that the waking and dream egos are entirely different, there being no interconnectedness between them. [i don't have to repeat that the soul of your agreement with Sri Murthy derives sustances from a half-lie just as my disagreement does from a half-truth. Shri Murthy's passage I commented on related to dream and waking experiences and not to dream and waking egos. Please don't mix issues.] _____________________________ > Dream state is a waking state in its own right. [i am aware of that argument and I can happily agree. Shri Atmanandaji had said the same thing in the excerpt below:] [quote 472. HOW ARE DREAM AND WAKING STATES RELATED? (169) The lower shastras attribute greater reality to the waking state, on the ground that unlike the dream state, it repeats itself. This statement is made in the waking state, from a stand clearly partial to that state. Examining these two states impartially, we find that what we now call the dream state was a pure waking state when experienced, according to the so-called dream subject who alone experienced that state. So there was no dream state in fact, but only another waking state, with nothing objective in common with the former waking state. UNQUOTE] [A very persistent friend of mine recently engaged me in a very lengthy e-mail debate right on this point. My last answer to him is excerpted below:] [quote "Waking is where there is knowledge of having dreamt and slept." There is only waking and it doesn't matter a wee-bit whether it is real waking or dream-waking as long as the above condition within inverted commas is fulfilled. Since there is dream-waking, there sure is dream-dream-waking, dream-dream-dream-waking etc. ad infinitum. That is infinite regress – a non-situation. In all such waking, the condition inserted between inverted commas above is not violated. It remains the hallmark of waking, whatever waking it is. In such a situation of apparent regress, there is no point asking the question which waking of the infinite number of wakings is No. 1 or real. We need only understand that there is waking, there is only waking, and in that waking we are awake to dreams and sleep. That wakefulness is dream awareness, dream contents awareness as well as the experience of not experiencing awareness. Whether it is recall or current doesn't matter. Everything exists only in the present. The notion of a past is a fallacy. If you can conclude that there are only three states called waking, dreaming and sleep inspite of the fact that there are waking-waking, dream-waking, dream-dreaming, dream-sleep, dream-dream-waking, dream-dream-dreaming, dream-dream sleep, etc. ad infinitum, you can definitely accept the contention that there is only one waking inspite of the possibility many types of waking. UNQUOTE] _______________ >One cannot judge the dream state from the standpoint of the waking state, in view of the seeming permanence of the waking state, which experience is had even in the dream state. [Tell me, Shri Sankarramanji, from where else can I judge the dream 'state'? I defined waking above as "where there is knowledge of having dreamt and slept". It is so not due to my making. I simply have no choice.] __________________________ >There is no spatial or temporal relationship between the two states. Both of them have their base only in the unbroken consciousness, which knows all the three states- as the unfailing light illumining all illusory phenomena and their absence, and not in the sense of knowing the relative contents which are continuously > falsified. Even memory is a trick of the mind, and should not delude us into the belief of the reality of anything other than the one Self. [No one here has any doubts about 'the unbroken consciousness which lights up everything - the reality of the Self'. Please don't jump the gun. We are only discussing the factuals of the avastAtrayA prakriya. I told you I have nothing against the prakriyA's conclusion. If I had, I wouldn't be writing all this here on this forum.] __________ Further, the branding of deep sleep as one of ignorance is also the conclusion of the waking ego, which cannot conceive existence in its absence. [Who branded sweet sleep so? Not me!] _________________ >A clear reading of the talks of Maharishi Ramana brings into clear relief that the three states are not interconnected, which is to say that we cannot sit in judgment of one state from the viewpoint of the other. [That is the conclusion of your 'clear' reading. Don't bring in Bhagwan here. Waking, whatever type of waking it is (i.e. dream- waking, dream-dream-waking etc.,) is the only point of view granted to us mortals to judge dream and deep sleep.] >Even one waking state is not related to the other. [i like and have always d to that conclusion. However, let us thank Heavens for this seeming continuity of ours where at least you can have the satisfaction of countering me and I can of answering you.] ______________________ >One can talk of insentient memory. But it is only from the standpoint of the empirical reality. [Outside of empirical reality (and tell me where that outside is!), where can we talk, Sri Sankarramanji?] ___________________ >Relating the two states is only psycho-analysis and not vedanta. [in the above statement of yours, you are confirming the existence of two states. At any point of the infinite regress I mentioned earlier, the recall of dreams always occurs in waking. It is not vice versa. Then how can one stop relating the two states, Sir?] [The principles of physics, biology and several other sciences have been brought in to explain vedanta. Relativity is a subject much discussed on this forum. Dr. Raju Chidambaram recently introduced here a mathematical model for vedanta and many a stalwart applauded him for his pioneering work. Why not psycho-analysis then? Whether you like it or not, Freud and Jung might prove more helpful to us in understanding the avastAtraya prakriya than some of our self-styled gurus who mouth Sanskrit texts ad infinitum without pondering over them.] _________________ [sHRI ANANDA WOOD-JI, IF YOU ARE LISTENING TO ALL THIS, THAT QUOTE ABOVE OF SHRI ATMANANDAJI AND MY COMMENTS ON IT WERE ACTUALLY MEANT TO BE ADDRESSED TO YOU IN RESPONSE TO YOUR LAST MAIL TO ME ON AVASTATRAYA PRAKRIYA. KINDLY THEREFORE BE FORTHCOMING IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING FURTHER TO SAY IN THE MATTER. THANKS.] PraNAms. Madathil Nair Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy My namaskarams to you all. Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair > wrote: QUOTE The happiness I experience in the dream is confined to the dream state, and does not affect me in the waking state. The happiness I experience in the waking state is likewise confined to that state, and does not affect me in the dream state. UNQUOTE The above quote gives an impression that dreaming and wakefulness are completely insulated states without any interconnection. Our experience is just the reverse. I can have a bad dream and continue to be moody for the rest of the day. Or, I can dream my sweetheart and be crooning the rest of the day. In these cases, my behaviour in wakefulness is a carry-forward of dream situations. Dreams are mostly made of material from wakefulness. Besides, the physiology of a sleeping body has great relevance to dream content. Thus, a hungry sleeper might dream feasts. Sleeping with the A.C. on at high cool can give a winter-dream. A full bladder can make us run to dream- toilets. Dear Sri Rajendran Nair, There is the element of truth in the above stated excerpt from your reply. . But this holds good from one standpoint only. From a higher dimension a Higher Truth than this will emerge out. The Shastrs and the Sages help us in acquiring this higher, nay the Highest , standpoint and asks us, exhorts us who are sincere and serious Mumukshus to view and investigate into the True Nature of the EXPERIENCER who is present in all the three from this highest dimension. This is the ONLY purpose of Avasthatraya methodology. It undertakes to answer the following two questions: a) What am I that pass through the three states or SEEM to pass through them? b) I know that I passed throug the three states. How is this made possible? A Mumukshu must confine himself to these two questions only and he should not be bothered about other issues which act as impediment in his journey towards Self-Realisation. The answers have been provided in the concluding part of the posting to which you have responded. That is what my Guru taught me and I am sharing the same with all of you. May the Divinity which is none other than our own Self bless us all with that Supreme Wisdom. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy. ___________________ ...................... Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Namaste Shri Sankarraman-ji. Thanks for your response. As usual, please see within . _______________ > I HONESTLY DO NOT INTEND TO MIX ISSUES. I BELIEVE THAT WAKING AND DREAM EXPERIENCES ARE NOTHING BUT THE EXPRESSION OF THE RESPECTIVE EGOS IDENTIFYING THE WITNESS WITH THE INTELLECT. SO THE EXPERIENCE IS SYNONYMOUS WITH THE EGO, THE DISTINCTION BEING ONLY ACADEMICAL [i may have to differ with you here. But, that is beside the point and it is quite unnecessary to digress from the specific issue which we are discussing, i.e. the relevance of waking to dreams. However, since you have brought in the egos of the two states, may I ask you a question: "Have you ever been other than Shri Sankarraman-ji in your dreams?". "Yes. You might have dreamt being a king or emperor. But, that was after all King Sankarraman, no? Definitely not Emperor Akbar or Ashoka per se." I am not being argumentative. I have a desire to learn. Never in my life, have I been anything other than Madathil Nair in my dreams. I, therefore, discern a clear link between dreaming and waking. Others might have had a different experience. But, it is a fact that mostly repeat mostly we carry our waking identifications to dreams.] [if the scriptures or teachers have said to the contrary, please make me understand it. Since you know for sure that they did, you should be able to convince me. I read a related post here which says that you are right and in tune with the Acharyas. But, honestly, I couldn't make head or tail of it.] ["This is what shAstra says, believe it without enquiry" is being Dr. Zakir Naikish. The only difference - he is raining Arabic and we Sanskrit.] ________________________ > > _MY UNDERSTANDING OF BHAGHAVAN IS ONLY THAT MUCH. SINCE BHAGHAVAN IS A GREAT MASTER WHAT IS WRONG IN QUOTING HIM? SOME OTHER LEARNED PERSON MAY CONTRADICT ME. [There is nothing wrong in quoting Bhaghavan. You were contending that He said what to my eyes looked like He did not. That was all I actually meant to say.] ____________________________ > > I AM ONLY ARTICULATING MY VIEWS, MY UNDERSTANDING. I DON'T INTEND TO COUNTER YOU. IT IS A SAD CONCLUSION. AT MY AGE I AM BEYOND SUCH TRIVIAL PLEASURES. SINCE MY KNOWLEDGE OF VEDANTA IS NOT PERFECT I CAN ONLY EXPRESS MY HONEST UNDERSTANDING. [sorry for the misunderstanding. Please make me understand your understanding. That is all what I am asking of Shri Murthy-ji and you. I am also equally aged like you, Sir.] _____________________________ PraNAms. Madathil Nair Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Namaste. Kindly tell me, Sir, the relevance of Shiva Agamas and "Divine Grace" to my post referenced by you. PraNAms. Madathil Nair _________________ advaitin, Virendra Qazi <virendra_qazi> wrote: > > Respected friends, > > Pranam! Shaiva Agamas have an answer and a practical method. > > As per Abhinavagupta: > > " Recognition means libration" > > Trika Yoga tells abour "Divine Grace". > > In :Sandhi - Junction point, your journey of realization begins. > > Virendra. > > ____________________ > > Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair> wrote: > Namaste Shri Sankarramanji. > > Please see within . > __________________________ > >................... Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair > wrote: Namaste Shri Sankarramanji. [ _____________________________ > 472. HOW ARE DREAM AND WAKING STATES RELATED? (169) The lower shastras attribute greater reality to the waking state, on the ground that unlike the dream state, it repeats itself. This statement is made in the waking state, from a stand clearly partial to that state. Examining these two states impartially, we find that what we now call the dream state was a pure waking state when experienced, according to the so-called dream subject who alone experienced that state. So there was no dream state in fact, but only another waking state, with nothing objective in common with the former waking state. "Waking is where there is knowledge of having dreamt and slept." There is only waking and it doesn't matter a wee-bit whether it is real waking or dream-waking as long as the above condition within inverted commas is fulfilled. Since there is dream-waking, there sure is dream-dream-waking, dream-dream-dream-waking etc. ad infinitum. That is infinite regress � a non-situation. In all such waking, the condition inserted between inverted commas above is not violated. It remains the hallmark of waking, whatever waking it is. In such a situation of apparent regress, there is no point asking the question which waking of the infinite number of wakings is No. 1 or real. We need only understand that there is waking, there is only waking, and in that waking we are awake to dreams and sleep. That wakefulness is dream awareness, dream contents awareness as well as the experience of not experiencing awareness. Whether it is recall or current doesn't matter. Everything exists only in the present. The notion of a past is a fallacy. If you can conclude that there are only three states called waking, dreaming and sleep inspite of the fact that there are waking-waking, dream-waking, dream-dreaming, dream-sleep, dream-dream-waking, dream-dream-dreaming, dream-dream sleep, etc. ad infinitum, you can definitely accept the contention that there is only one waking inspite of the possibility many types of waking. ________From Sankarraman Dear Sir, May I revert back to you. This is my further response to your first message as well as the reply to the latest mail from you elaborating further your position on this subject. May the moderators permit me to quote the above portions of your message, as, bereft of it, the entire thing will look like a madman's manuscript, to use the words of Charles Dickens. Do you know that the grand son of the great story teller is a devotee of Bhaghavn, having been drawn to him by merely, accidentally, looking at the photograph of the great master in a book-fair in East Africa? This is a pleasant digression. What you say above is on all fours with the Upanishadic Knowledge as interpreted by Sankara, and refurbished by Ramana to enable the modern, twentieth century man who might look askance at the various complicated terminologies of the vedanta and the heavy logic of Brahmasutra, to have an insight into the Real. But one thing that I should like to add- which is my unformulated intuition-is that that ultimate wakefulness that is at once awareness and the present, calling the bluff to the past, should be only synonymous with the one consciousness, the witness, the source alike of all the broadly mentioned states and their legion of sub-states. From your repeated urge on the position that this is only the knowledge of the waking state, I should conclude that you have taken a giant leap, and are near, as it were, to the Self in your personal intuition, which nobody has any business to contest. This is not a persiflage, but a sincere readiness to see eye to eye with you. As regards your query that whether I do not find myself, after waking up from the hinterland of dream and sleep, intact in my original position of a certain name and form foisted on me in the waking world, and not continue to be confounded by the different attributes etc of the dream, I fully acquiesce in your splendid averment. But this is not to swerve from the basic position that the one Being-Awareness-Bliss alone has the right to pass this judgment, and not the states sundered, or pretending to be sundered, from the source. I think from the non-verbal standpoint both of us are in the same position, but certain mental conditioning, and attachment to some other thoughts, existing as powerful samskaras, make it appear as though we were articulating different ideas, which is an illusion. I thank you for having given me a great fillip to my quest. I think we can abide in this understanding, and not further verbally move retrograde, which should spoil our intuition. with warm regards, yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana Sankarraman ______________ > __________ How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair > wrote: QUOTE The happiness I experience in the dream is confined to the dream state, and does not affect me in the waking state. The happiness I experience in the waking state is likewise confined to that state, and does not affect me in the dream state. namaskaram to all i am not able to understand the above statement. a) as an ordinary person who is not a student of vedanta and who is ignorant of generally anything about "SELF" the above statement could be seemingly right. But then as a student of Vedanta i am learning these and trying to assimilate - trying to uncover the IGNORANCE that " I " am not happy in steps. And once " I " am able to see that HAPPINESS is my nature, then how can "I" be affected by a good dream and not good dream ? yes, may be thoughts could rise which normally should disturb an " I " who is not a student. But as a student, " I " am able to see that thought the thoughts could disturb me, " I " have the FREE WILL to decide - to entertain or not to entertain these thougts and thus " I " chose NOT ENTERTAIN OR SUSTAIN these thougts. and that help "I" to continue to be HAPPY. Also there is so much - very interesting - discussion on the three stages- waking- dream and sleep - Again, are not these stages used or explained to make us see - how our vision may not be right after all and also to make us see how creation is taking place with no substance etc? I must say that we are blessed to have so many many souls here who help us to see a little more every time we read the discussions. my Pranam to all Do you have a question on a topic you cant find an Answer to. Try Answers India Get the all new Messenger Beta Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.