Murari Update

November 16, 1999

Dear Prabhus,

Dandavats! Jayasrila Prabhupada! We are so sorry to hear of the untimely

death of our mothers.

YS, Srutakirti dasa

Kusha devi dasi

November 16, 1999

The very sad thing is that the number included *eight* trained oxen. What a

tragedy for all the devotees who invested their hearts in cultivating a

relationship with these animals -- only to have them killed by a demoniac

temple

leader.

I have said for many years that an ox's training is his life insurance. This

case has proved that sometimes the opposite is true. Evidently Drumilla when

loading a trailer with animals to sell, selected the *trained* oxen first

because they were more agreeable and easier to handle. The majority of the

untrained animals were left at Murari.

Bhaktin Debbie told me that when she went to the stockyards to investigate

whether the animals had been actually sold to slaughter (it was confirmed they

had been), the stock handler said that he had remembered them, that they stood

out because they were so tame and cooperative. They were not wild. She

explained to him, "Yes, those animals were trained to haul logs out of the

woods. They are very obedient and they like people." She said that even he

felt very bad about it.

So, this takes us back to Srila Prabhupada's statement at the end of the fourth

canto -- that *under the protection of the ksatriyas* the vaisyas will protect

the animals. Obviously, if there is no proper administrative oversight for the

welfare of the cows, everything will go to hell. The vaisyas can't do

everything on their own.

This whole issue points to huge administrative problems which need to be

soberly

assessed and addressed.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

Sita wrote:

[Text 2781766 from COM]

>It was also concluded that 14 cows have been slaughtered.

Horrible.

It's no surprise that of the 14 killed, 3 were female and 11 were male.

There appears to be a parallel between the way farms have focused on

milking cows and neglected training oxen with our human social

organization.

"COM: ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

> [Text 2780951 from COM]

>

> Dear Prabhus,

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

>

> We had promised to keep everyone updated as to the happenings at Murari

> Sevaka so that truth will prevail and not fiction.

>

> There was a meeting of the Murari governing board yesterday. The decision

> was made to keep the remaining cows. Prithu prabhu was voted in as the

> CO-GBC. He has brought 6 men there to help take care of the cows.

> Investigation of legal repercussions towards Drumilla are continuing to be

> pursued. Within a week there will be a detailed report from the board.

>

> It was also concluded that 14 cows have been slaughtered. There are legal

> papers in hand of the actual sale. We pray that this act will not be

> forgotten, that the perpetrator will not go unpunished, that the Executive

> committee take some action or make some statement, and in short that action

> which can set a precedent is taken so that it be clearly understood that

> victimization of Lord Krsna's most vulnerable citizens (and any citizens) is

> not according to our most beloved spiritual master's, Srila Prabhupada's,

> desire and vison for The International Society for Krsna Consciousness.

>

> COWS + OXEN SENT TO SLAUGHTER BY DRUMILA :

>

> They are:

>

> 1) Varuni - cow , (Black Angus mix) 4 Yrs. old (not Trained) sent

> for breeding (now known to be slaughtered)

> 2) Indra - oxen , (Brown Swiss mix) 8 --10 Yrs. old (not Trained)

> 3) Cintamani - cow , (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) sent for breeding

> (now known to be slaughtered)

> 4) Indra - Bull, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) sent for breeding (now

> known to be slaughtered)

> 5) Chota - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 6) Maha - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 7) Dharma - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 8) Bhima - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 9) Bala - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 10) Prabhu - oxen, (Long Hair Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 11) Bimba - oxen, (Red Angus+Brown Swiss) 6 Yrs. old (Trained)

> 12) Tala - oxen, (Black Angus+Brown Swiss) 6 Yrs. old (Trained)

>

> GIVEN TO JOHNNY LEE BY DRUMILA . SENT TO SLAUGHTER

> BY JOHNNY LEE.

>

> Hamsi - cow, (Herford mix ?) 12 Yrs.old

> Hamsi's Bull calf. He was about 1wk. old when given away.

>

> Your servant,

> Balabhadra das

> ISKCON Minister for Cow Protection and Agriculture

November 16, 1999

HKdd wrote:

>The very sad thing is that the number included *eight* trained oxen. What a

>tragedy for all the devotees who invested their hearts in cultivating a

>relationship with these animals -- only to have them killed by a demoniac

>temple

>leader.

I beg your pardon. I should have said "neglected *utilizing* oxen". The

trained oxen that were killed were mostly only 4 years old, 6 years old

maximum, plus there was a bull calf.

What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human

level, there are not enough grhastha men in management and part of this is

because many of our sannyasis relate better to women than to men.

November 16, 1999

At 8:47 -0800 11/16/99, Sita devi dasi wrote:

>

>What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human

>level, there are not enough grhastha men in management.......

Finally something we agree on. I'd also add women and youth to that list.

It's time for management to become more representative of the membership,

which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our

grhastas.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 17, 1999

> So, this takes us back to Srila Prabhupada's statement at the end of the

> fourth canto -- that *under the protection of the ksatriyas* the vaisyas

> will protect the animals. Obviously, if there is no proper administrative

> oversight for the welfare of the cows, everything will go to hell. The

> vaisyas can't do everything on their own.

"One leg of the man who kills a cow, goat, elephant and camel should be

chopped off. The man who kills small animals and deer should be fined twice

damas (fee, punishment). The man who kills insects and worms should be fined

one masa of silver and the owner of the animals should be paid his price."

(Matsya Purana, ch 227, text 89-90)

This is from a long chapter on how the king must punish culprits and

criminals in his kingdom. It is repeatedly emphasized that enforcing

punishments is one of the prime duties of the king. I am not quoting this

because I am advocating the chopping of limbs but it seems clear that in

vedic society even the killer of small animals was fined what to speak of a

killer of cows.

Here are more interesting quotes from the end of the chapter:

"One who sets at liberty a man kept in confinement or a culprit worthy of

being sent to the gallows should be punished twice as much as prescribed

for the real culprit. If the officers of a king do anything unmindfully they

should be fined thirty times the amount prescribed which the kings should

offer to Lord Varuna.If a servant of the state inflicts less or more than

prescribed, he should be made to recoup the shortcomings fo his own pocket.

The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person is

just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned to

death. A brahmana guilty of any crime, howsoever serious it may be, should

not be condemned to death. He should only be deprived of his wealth and

banished. A brahmana should never be killed for there is great sin in doing

so. The king who does not punish a man worthy of being condemned and

punishes an innocent man merits enormous discredit and goes to hell. A king

should always punish a guilty person after duly contemplating the gravity of

the offense in consultation with a brahmana." (Texts 210-217)

Some thoughts which cross my mind after reading these texts:

In ISKCON, who is the king who will punish the devotee who sold the cows? Is

it the GBC? If it is the GBC, who is the brahmana in consultation with who

the GBC will contemplate the gravity of the offense?

If it is not the GBC, should not the GBC empower a person or a group of

persons to investigate and issue a binding sentence lest they want to be

impicated in the sin of killing a cow?

Is Drumilla das a brahmana? If yes, should he not be banished and deprived

of his wealth or at least be fined twice the amount he earned from selling

the cows? Where is Drumilla das now? Where is the money that he received?

Why did he sell the cows in the first place? Who is investigating this case?

ys Anantarupa

November 17, 1999

On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, COM: Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

> [Text 2785597 from COM]

>

> Is Drumilla das a brahmana? If yes, should he not be banished and deprived

> of his wealth or at least be fined twice the amount he earned from selling

> the cows? Where is Drumilla das now? Where is the money that he received?

> Why did he sell the cows in the first place? Who is investigating this case?

>

> ys Anantarupa

This was a good letter to provide a Vedic perspective on the case. You

are right: We don't want to chop off limbs, but we do need to provide

some form of punishment. Also, those who through their neglect assist in

the escape of a criminal should be called to task.

One point here is that we should not be so sentimental to assume that

everyone who has ever worn saffron or had his head shaved is a brahmana.

Prthu's son chastised Indra when he falsely posed as a sannyasi.

Prabhupada states that there are always false sannyasis. It seems natural

to conclude that there are also false brahmanas.

Another point is that although it is usually stated that a brahmana cannot

be punished severely, there is one passage in the Manu Samhita which

states that when a brahmana steals from other brahmanas he should hand his

stick (danda??) to the king, and the king should strike him dead in one

blow. So there is some provision for punishing brahmanas. Obviously, we

are not in the position to administer a death sentence (thank the Lord,

given our tendency to make mistakes in our judgement) but still this shows

that philosophically, there is some provision for punishment of brahmanas,

even under the Vedic scripture.

But in the present case, the more important point is whether Drumilla

could even be considered a brahmana. I personally would say he was simply

an imposter. I'm interested to see what ISKCON's authorities will say.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

November 17, 1999

>

> The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person is

> just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned to

> death.

Yes, we do need to avoid the lynch mob mentality and remember that not all

accused are guilty, and a rush to judgement may not properly sort out the

innocent from the guilty.

November 17, 1999

At 9:09 -0800 11/17/99, Martin wrote:

>

>In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

>of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with

some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice - yet.

What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON

and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where

he is?

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 17, 1999

In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

of sending innocent animals to slaughter. Animals which were protected and

loved by the devotees. He came only for a short period ot Murari so he had

no knowledge of these cows and definitely had no attachment for them. It

would have been better had he gone to the slaughter house and let these

animals stay and serve Krishna with their lives. He deserves whatever

punishment he gets. This was not some ommission or mistake, it was a

blatant disregard for the life of these cows. He is a low class sob and I

hope he pays dearly and continues to pay for one thousand lifetimes. I

guess yall get the point. Anyone who has ever loved and felt the love of

our mother and father should know exactly how we all feel towards this so

called person.

YS

Dvibhuja Das

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama

development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp)

(Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:50 AM

Re: Murari Update

>[Text 2786152 from COM]

>

>>

>> The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person

is

>> just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned

to

>> death.

>

>Yes, we do need to avoid the lynch mob mentality and remember that not all

>accused are guilty, and a rush to judgement may not properly sort out the

>innocent from the guilty.

>

November 17, 1999

We are waiting to hear some kind of response on this from the GBC Executive

Committee.

It is interesting to note that when the Vrndavana women-beating incident took

place, the GBC chairman responded within a couple days with some assessment and

a directive.

These cows were sold to slaughter back in June during the Panihatti Festival,

and still we have heard no official comment from the GBC Executive Committee,

five months later.

If you think being a woman puts you in an un-protected position in ISKCON --

try being a cow. Then why should anyone protect you? -- you aren't even

collecting money to build temples. You are simply a burden on ISKCON.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

"COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote:

> [Text 2786551 from COM]

>

> At 9:09 -0800 11/17/99, Martin wrote:

> >

> >In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

> >of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

>

> There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with

> some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice - yet.

> What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON

> and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where

> he is?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

November 18, 1999

-

COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)

> >In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be

guilty

> >of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

>

> There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with

> some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice -

yet.

> What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON

> and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where

> he is?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

>

These are the questions we have.

>

November 18, 1999

Martin wrote:

> [Text 2786351 from COM]

>

> In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

> of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We certainly

can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing.

But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think about

how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case.

November 18, 1999

On 18 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> Martin wrote:

>

> > [Text 2786351 from COM]

> >

> > In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

>

> Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We

certainly can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing.

>

> But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think

about how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case.

>

The thing with Drumila, knowing him a little from the past, is that I have to

wonder how much he was spiritually concious of what he was doing. He can be a

bit 'wound-up' when under pressure -- possibly also accused of becoming

self-centered and defensive when he feels overwhelmed. Anger leads to

bewilderment of intelligence -- like that.

Still, no matter how he might explain his activities, you really can't explain

them from a devotional perspective. Certainly, if our children became a

burden, we wouldn't sell them, etc. At least I would hope not.

ys,

Sthita

November 18, 1999

On 17 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>

> These cows were sold to slaughter back in June during the Panihatti

Festival, and still we have heard no official comment from the GBC Executive

Committee, five months later.

>

So far there's been what appears to be a very thorough investigation which has

reported evidence strongly suggesting willful misconduct by any and every

standard of devotional practice. Drumila has apparently left the property and

resigned from all positions of responsibility. As there are no laws against

the slaughter of cows in the US, and legally speaking Drumila was acting as an

ISKCON director, our legal opportunities are either limited or nil.

Basically, all the GBC can do now is 'comment' that Drumila's alleged actions

are inexcusable. Beyond that, what can we expect? It is unfortunate that

Drumila was ever given so much responsibility within a project -- obviously he

didn't have a clue how to handle it in an auspicious manner.

You know, we can blame the GBC, and often righfully so, but where are the

qualified devotees willing to take responsibility for these various projects?

ys,

Sthita

November 18, 1999

On 18 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> Martin wrote:

>

> > [Text 2786351 from COM]

> >

> > In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty

> > of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

>

> Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees?

Yes it would be awful. Then the hot head would be a criminal.

Let Krsna give that kind of punishment in His own way. We can treat him like a

child molester: insistence on counseling, banning, forced reparations,

ex-communication, etc.

i

November 18, 1999

In the case of Drumilla, those are difficult questions to answer except for

the one whether he is guilty. If there was any doubt I would not be in

favor of ridiculing and blasheming a devotee. No matter what it lookded

like. But in this case he admitted it after it was obvious his henious plot

had been uncovered by Damon and Debbie. In the first we should never do

illlegal deeds, but Krishna is the ultimate judge in the form of Lord

Yamaraja, so no one has to break legs. Legs aren't a big deal. That would

actually be for those who are compassionate to him. Killing those innocent

animals carries a very great reaction indeed. We as simple humans don't

have the ability to carry out such things. He should read the 5th canto and

also understand that the devotees ultimately pray that he becomes purified

and takes shelter of Lord Caitanya. We also were very sinful before being

delivered by Srila Prabhupada, but the killing of these animals is so

abhorable that we should show outrage lest someone not get the deep deep

IMPORTANCE of never allowing the cows to be harmed. They are not just cows

but Krishna's cows. Special souls taking shelter of Lord Caitanya. Even

they wern't beautiful enough to satisfy the senses of Drumilla. I guess he

wanted surabhi cows for his holiness pleasure. Anyway I pray that I don't

create any offense but I can't help but show how bad it is what he has done.

I know some could say what about this cow getting stuck, or this one falling

etc, but to knowingly participate in sending them to the slaughter house. NO

NO it should never even enter the mine of a devotee. So Drumilla is sick of

course, so in that way I guess you could see him like a criminally insane.

YS

Dvibhuja Das

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net

<laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:20 PM

Re: Murari Update

>[Text 2787823 from COM]

>

>Martin wrote:

>

>> [Text 2786351 from COM]

>>

>> In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be

guilty

>> of sending innocent animals to slaughter.

>

>Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We

certainly

>can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing.

>

>But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think

about

>how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case.

>

November 18, 1999