Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 On 30 Jul 1999, Ajamila das wrote: > This is called loyalty. > > It appears that some feel loyalty is only useful for ISKCON neophytes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 On 30 Jul 1999, Ajamila das wrote: > > This is called loyalty. > It appears that some feel loyalty is only useful for ISKCON neophytes. Sthita-dhi The American philosopher Pierce wrote that loyalty to any cause was to be appreciated and not discouraged, because he considered loyalty a virtue in itself. However, unexamined loyalty also has its downside. Otherwise, we see all varieties of perversions where people become BLINDLY loyal to their particular cause, at the cost of progressive understanding. Witness all the violence and bloodshed that has been perpetrated in the name of such *loyalty* to their country, religion or doctrine. Northern Ireland, Israel and Palestine, etc. Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is good because by that *process* one can gradually advance. The critical point, however, is that one's faith or loyalty has to be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over time. Circumstances change. A policy from one era becomes obsolete or counter-productive in another. Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* - philosophy is eternal while its particular application (policy) is contingent on time and circumstance (desa, kala, patra). "Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." -- (Bh.gita 4.34. purpt.) So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte or fanatical if it is not balanced by proper discrimination and philosophical inquiry. If we are not being philosophical and *self-critical*, we are not understanding the process. If we are not understanding the process, then what is the value of our "following"? Faith must be progressive. This is what we mean by subjective evolution. In terms of our philosophy and what Srila Prabhupada desired, my understanding of this point regarding Gaudiya Math is nicely confirmed in a comment by Hrdayananda Maharaja recently published on VNN: "Srila Prabhupada also intensely desired to unite the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and made many efforts in that regard, efforts that I often personally witnessed and even participated in as Srila Prabhupada's secretary." Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas. But in order for that to happen, the institutional and individual practices of discrimination, fueled by long-held collective misunderstandings, have to cease. Srila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 > > Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is good because > by that *process* one can gradually advance. The critical point, however, > is that one's faith or loyalty has to be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over > time. The real critical point here is the one when your PROGRESSIVE faith/loyalty in your spiritual authority manifests on the way that you become not closer to him, but indeed more distanced, due to having found the replacement. Thus the relationship with your spiritual authority becomes -- progressively regressive. > Circumstances change. A policy from one era becomes obsolete or > counter-productive in another. You mean, the policy of following the spiritual master? What "another era"? What "circumstances"? You speak vague. No clear reference to anything, no clear point. > > Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* - philosophy is > eternal while its particular application (policy) is contingent on time > and circumstance (desa, kala, patra). > What are you talking about actually? > "Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." -- (Bh.gita 4.34. > purpt.) So, what is your point? Does this says just anything about who is guilty of blind following and who is not? It is a general statement. I could quote the wole Bhagavad-gita for you, no problem. > > So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte or fanatical > if it is not balanced by proper discrimination and philosophical inquiry. But why aren't you able to accept or understand that many of those ISCKON devotees who have decided to rather stay in ISCKON, with their gurus and/or with Srila Prabhupada, instead of going to Gaudiya Math gurus, that they have balanced their loyalty by proper discrimination and philosophical inquiry? > If we are not being philosophical and *self-critical*, we are not > understanding the process. If we are not understanding the process, then > what is the value of our "following"? This question you got to ask -- yourself. But I assume that you have made yourself confident in your own self-criticisam and understanding the process, as well as in the value of your following. But you don't leave others at piece. That's all I know about your "following" at the present: How to pursue ISCKON devotees that they are failing to follow Srila Prabhupada properly because they don't go to the Gaudiya Math authorities, to follow them. > Faith must be progressive. This is what we mean by subjective evolution. So what does this mean? That our "subjective evolution" got to be demonstrated by collective acceptance of Gaudiya Matha acaryas as our gurus? Is that "progressive faith" that you are advocating here? I have never really understood how those Prabhupada's disciples/ granddisciples who went over to different gurus in GM, are now serving better Srila Prabhupada than those who have not done like them. That if you go to some GM guru, that means your faith/loyalty in Prabhupada/guru has become proved as progressive. > > Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas. But in order > for that to happen, the institutional and individual practices of > discrimination, fueled by long-held collective misunderstandings, have to > cease. These are simply some political speeches. Look, you got your way of understanding. And anybody who doesn't go along with you is being blasted away by all kinds of ill names (not so much particularly in this text but you have been well experienced as such, so far). This is typical. Calling for "peace and understanding" by accusing only one side for the crime of sabotaging the same. You have NEVER acknowledged that "the institutional and individual practices of discrimination" do *well* exist in Gaudiya Math, even more strongly than in ISCKON. Why? Because you yourself are in the thick Gaudiya Math institutional consciousness. Your "progressive faith/loyalty" has brought you to the "managerial" point of accepting/following another spiritual authorities (in accordance to "desa, kala, patra"). Hence, logically, you got to be judgmental/critical of only one institution. You are proving it again and again. ------ But what is the use of accusing and contracusing for blindness, not following, not understanding the process, for being immature, for institutional consciousness, for sectarianism, non-loyalty, and so on and so on?? Why don't you simply live your spiritual life on the way you think you ought to, and you leave others do the same? Isn't that simple? Notice that the real issue here is not really KC philosophy. It's *who* is supposed/expected to be the authority of *whom*. That makes it into a -- political issue. A "progressive" shift of the authoritiship. And very particular one. Not just "let's get some another, better authorities, folk". You are clear with whom to ISCKON devotees are supposed to "progress" towards in their faith/loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and their respective present spiritual authorities, aren't you? But, again, this may not be surprise, since some of the authorities you might be following now, do not themselves care for what relationship ISCKON devotees got with their present spiritual masters/authorities, they ignore it. So do you. In the name of "peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas". What an irony, Srila prabhu. - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 > On 30 Jul 1999, Ajamila das wrote: > > > This is called loyalty. > > > It appears that some feel loyalty is only useful for ISKCON > > neophytes. > Sthita-dhi > > The American philosopher Pierce wrote that loyalty to any > cause was to be appreciated and not discouraged, because he > considered loyalty a virtue in itself. Great to hear some confirmation coming from your great "sadhu" Mr Pierce!!!! > However, unexamined > loyalty also has its downside. Otherwise, we see all varieties > of perversions where people become BLINDLY loyal to their > particular cause, at the cost of progressive understanding. Sounds like too much emphasis on jnana at the expense of bhakti. > Witness all the violence and bloodshed that has been > perpetrated in the name of such *loyalty* to their country, > religion or doctrine. Northern Ireland, Israel and Palestine, > etc. Irrelevant example. > Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is > good because by that *process* one can gradually advance. The > critical point, however, is that one's faith or loyalty has to > be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over time. Circumstances change. > A policy from one era becomes obsolete or counter-productive > in another. You are waffling, perhaps reading too many newspapers. Srila Prabhupada's policy of remaining loyal to his ISKCON is never negotiable. > Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* - > philosophy is eternal while its particular application > (policy) is contingent on time and circumstance (desa, kala, > patra). Remaining loyal to the institution that Srila Prabhupada created with so much endeavour is philosohical not managerial. > "Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." -- > (Bh.gita 4.34. purpt.) Wrong context. Way of course!!! > So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte > or fanatical if it is not balanced by proper discrimination > and philosophical inquiry. You are trying to weasel your way out of being loyal to Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON, rationalizing with all your points 'back to front'. > If we are not being philosophical > and *self-critical*, we are not understanding the process. You are wrongly insinuating that staying in ISKCON is not being philosophical or self-critical. Go to Mayapura and speak to Jananivas who only wants to take birth in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON birth after birth and see if he is not philosophical or self-critical. If you do go you'll see your argument is completely wrong. In fact the core of ISKCON is made up of many thousands of devotees who are like Jananivas which proves a thousand times over you are wrong, wrong, wrong. > If we are not understanding the process, then what is the > value of our "following"? Faith must be progressive. This is > what we mean by subjective evolution. The process Srila Prabhupada gave us was to chant Hare Krishna and stay in ISKCON. You are saying devotees are better off outside ISKCON. This is a deviation, not progressive faith. > In terms of our philosophy and what Srila Prabhupada desired, > my understanding of this point regarding Gaudiya Math is > nicely confirmed in a comment by Hrdayananda Maharaja recently > published on VNN: > "Srila Prabhupada also intensely desired to unite the Gaudiya > Vaishnavas, and made many efforts in that regard, efforts that > I often personally witnessed and even participated in as Srila > Prabhupada's secretary." That is part of what he said. The conclusion he and Srila Prabhupada gave was that it is best if we avoid GM association since Srila Prabhupada REALLT DID give us EVERYTHING. > Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas. So why do you preach to satisifed devotees to leave ISKCON? Any why are you disobeying your spiritual orders not to leave ISKCON? Without pleasing your spiritual master you are going nowhere. > But in order for that to happen, the institutional and > individual practices of discrimination, fueled by long-held > collective misunderstandings, have to cease. Why are you so hung up on "discrimination"? Who's discriminating against who? What are you on about? The only person stopping you from doing something for ISKCON is you. > Srila dasa Hare Krishna!! ys ada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 On 30 Jul 1999, Irvin H Collins wrote: > However, unexamined loyalty also has its downside. Fortunately, we have our lovable Srila to critically dissect every sentiment ever expressed by the itty bitty ISKCON neophytes. Surely, he is but another example of Krsna's unlimited mercy on the misguided 'eternally' conditioned fallen souls. Who needs to go outside of ISKCON when Krsna is obviously engaging his intimate associates to come to us with the straight sauce. .. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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