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On 30 Jul 1999, Ajamila das wrote:

> > This is called loyalty.

 

> It appears that some feel loyalty is only useful for ISKCON neophytes.

Sthita-dhi

 

The American philosopher Pierce wrote that loyalty to any cause was to be

appreciated and not discouraged, because he considered loyalty a virtue in

itself. However, unexamined loyalty also has its downside. Otherwise, we

see all varieties of perversions where people become BLINDLY loyal to their

particular cause, at the cost of progressive understanding. Witness all

the violence and bloodshed that has been perpetrated in the name of such

*loyalty* to their country, religion or doctrine. Northern Ireland, Israel

and Palestine, etc.

 

Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is good because

by that *process* one can gradually advance. The critical point, however,

is that one's faith or loyalty has to be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over

time. Circumstances change. A policy from one era becomes obsolete or

counter-productive in another.

 

Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* - philosophy is

eternal while its particular application (policy) is contingent on time and

circumstance (desa, kala, patra).

 

"Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." -- (Bh.gita 4.34.

purpt.)

 

So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte or fanatical

if it is not balanced by proper discrimination and philosophical inquiry.

If we are not being philosophical and *self-critical*, we are not

understanding the process. If we are not understanding the process, then

what is the value of our "following"?

Faith must be progressive. This is what we mean by subjective evolution.

 

In terms of our philosophy and what Srila Prabhupada desired, my

understanding of this point regarding Gaudiya Math is nicely confirmed in a

comment by Hrdayananda Maharaja recently published on VNN:

"Srila Prabhupada also intensely desired to unite the Gaudiya Vaishnavas,

and made many efforts in that regard, efforts that I often personally

witnessed and even participated in as Srila Prabhupada's secretary."

 

Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas. But in order

for that to happen, the institutional and individual practices of

discrimination, fueled by long-held collective misunderstandings, have to

cease.

 

Srila dasa

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>

> Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is good because

> by that *process* one can gradually advance. The critical point, however,

> is that one's faith or loyalty has to be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over

> time.

 

The real critical point here is the one when your PROGRESSIVE

faith/loyalty in your spiritual authority manifests on the way

that you become not closer to him, but indeed more distanced,

due to having found the replacement. Thus the relationship with

your spiritual authority becomes -- progressively regressive.

 

> Circumstances change. A policy from one era becomes obsolete or

> counter-productive in another.

 

You mean, the policy of following the spiritual master? What

"another era"? What "circumstances"?

 

You speak vague. No clear reference to anything, no clear point.

 

 

>

> Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* - philosophy is

> eternal while its particular application (policy) is contingent on time

> and circumstance (desa, kala, patra).

>

 

What are you talking about actually?

 

 

> "Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." -- (Bh.gita 4.34.

> purpt.)

 

So, what is your point? Does this says just anything about who

is guilty of blind following and who is not? It is a general

statement. I could quote the wole Bhagavad-gita for you, no

problem.

 

 

>

> So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte or fanatical

> if it is not balanced by proper discrimination and philosophical inquiry.

 

But why aren't you able to accept or understand that many of those

ISCKON devotees who have decided to rather stay in ISCKON, with their

gurus and/or with Srila Prabhupada, instead of going to Gaudiya Math

gurus, that they have balanced their loyalty by proper discrimination

and philosophical inquiry?

 

> If we are not being philosophical and *self-critical*, we are not

> understanding the process. If we are not understanding the process, then

> what is the value of our "following"?

 

This question you got to ask -- yourself.

 

But I assume that you have made yourself confident in your own

self-criticisam and understanding the process, as well as in

the value of your following. But you don't leave others at

piece. That's all I know about your "following" at the present:

How to pursue ISCKON devotees that they are failing to follow

Srila Prabhupada properly because they don't go to the Gaudiya Math

authorities, to follow them.

 

 

> Faith must be progressive. This is what we mean by subjective evolution.

 

So what does this mean? That our "subjective evolution" got to be

demonstrated by collective acceptance of Gaudiya Matha acaryas

as our gurus? Is that "progressive faith" that you are advocating

here?

 

I have never really understood how those Prabhupada's disciples/

granddisciples who went over to different gurus in GM, are now

serving better Srila Prabhupada than those who have not done like

them. That if you go to some GM guru, that means your faith/loyalty

in Prabhupada/guru has become proved as progressive.

 

 

 

>

> Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas. But in order

> for that to happen, the institutional and individual practices of

> discrimination, fueled by long-held collective misunderstandings, have to

> cease.

 

These are simply some political speeches. Look, you got your way of

understanding. And anybody who doesn't go along with you is being

blasted away by all kinds of ill names (not so much particularly

in this text but you have been well experienced as such, so far).

 

This is typical. Calling for "peace and understanding" by accusing

only one side for the crime of sabotaging the same. You have NEVER

acknowledged that "the institutional and individual practices of

discrimination" do *well* exist in Gaudiya Math, even more strongly

than in ISCKON. Why? Because you yourself are in the thick Gaudiya

Math institutional consciousness. Your "progressive faith/loyalty"

has brought you to the "managerial" point of accepting/following

another spiritual authorities (in accordance to "desa, kala, patra").

Hence, logically, you got to be judgmental/critical of only one

institution. You are proving it again and again.

 

 

------

 

But what is the use of accusing and contracusing for blindness,

not following, not understanding the process, for being immature,

for institutional consciousness, for sectarianism, non-loyalty,

and so on and so on?? Why don't you simply live your spiritual

life on the way you think you ought to, and you leave others do

the same? Isn't that simple?

 

Notice that the real issue here is not really KC philosophy.

It's *who* is supposed/expected to be the authority of *whom*.

That makes it into a -- political issue. A "progressive" shift

of the authoritiship. And very particular one. Not just "let's

get some another, better authorities, folk". You are clear

with whom to ISCKON devotees are supposed to "progress" towards

in their faith/loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and their respective

present spiritual authorities, aren't you? But, again, this may

not be surprise, since some of the authorities you might be following

now, do not themselves care for what relationship ISCKON devotees

got with their present spiritual masters/authorities, they

ignore it. So do you. In the name of "peace and understanding

between all Vaisnavas". What an irony, Srila prabhu.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

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> On 30 Jul 1999, Ajamila das wrote:

> > > This is called loyalty.

>

> > It appears that some feel loyalty is only useful for ISKCON

> > neophytes.

> Sthita-dhi

>

> The American philosopher Pierce wrote that loyalty to any

> cause was to be appreciated and not discouraged, because he

> considered loyalty a virtue in itself.

 

Great to hear some confirmation coming from your great "sadhu"

Mr Pierce!!!!

 

> However, unexamined

> loyalty also has its downside. Otherwise, we see all varieties

> of perversions where people become BLINDLY loyal to their

> particular cause, at the cost of progressive understanding.

 

Sounds like too much emphasis on jnana at the expense of bhakti.

 

> Witness all the violence and bloodshed that has been

> perpetrated in the name of such *loyalty* to their country,

> religion or doctrine. Northern Ireland, Israel and Palestine,

> etc.

 

Irrelevant example.

 

> Prabhupada states the principle of following an authority is

> good because by that *process* one can gradually advance. The

> critical point, however, is that one's faith or loyalty has to

> be PROGRESSIVE, not stagnant over time. Circumstances change.

> A policy from one era becomes obsolete or counter-productive

> in another.

 

You are waffling, perhaps reading too many newspapers. Srila

Prabhupada's policy of remaining loyal to his ISKCON is never

negotiable.

 

> Let us not confuse *philosophy* with managerial *policy* -

> philosophy is eternal while its particular application

> (policy) is contingent on time and circumstance (desa, kala,

> patra).

 

Remaining loyal to the institution that Srila Prabhupada created

with so much endeavour is philosohical not managerial.

 

> "Blind following [viz, *loyalty*] is to be condemned." --

> (Bh.gita 4.34. purpt.)

 

Wrong context. Way of course!!!

 

 

> So on this note, loyalty can certainly be considered neophyte

> or fanatical if it is not balanced by proper discrimination

> and philosophical inquiry.

 

You are trying to weasel your way out of being loyal to Srila

Prabhupada's ISKCON, rationalizing with all your points 'back to

front'.

 

> If we are not being philosophical

> and *self-critical*, we are not understanding the process.

 

You are wrongly insinuating that staying in ISKCON is not being

philosophical or self-critical. Go to Mayapura and speak to

Jananivas who only wants to take birth in Srila Prabhupada's

ISKCON birth after birth and see if he is not philosophical or

self-critical. If you do go you'll see your argument is

completely wrong. In fact the core of ISKCON is made up of many

thousands of devotees who are like Jananivas which proves a

thousand times over you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

> If we are not understanding the process, then what is the

> value of our "following"? Faith must be progressive. This is

> what we mean by subjective evolution.

 

The process Srila Prabhupada gave us was to chant Hare Krishna

and stay in ISKCON. You are saying devotees are better off

outside ISKCON. This is a deviation, not progressive faith.

 

> In terms of our philosophy and what Srila Prabhupada desired,

> my understanding of this point regarding Gaudiya Math is

> nicely confirmed in a comment by Hrdayananda Maharaja recently

> published on VNN:

> "Srila Prabhupada also intensely desired to unite the Gaudiya

> Vaishnavas, and made many efforts in that regard, efforts that

> I often personally witnessed and even participated in as Srila

> Prabhupada's secretary."

 

That is part of what he said. The conclusion he and Srila

Prabhupada gave was that it is best if we avoid GM association

since Srila Prabhupada REALLT DID give us EVERYTHING.

 

> Let there be peace and understanding between all Vaisnavas.

 

So why do you preach to satisifed devotees to leave ISKCON? Any

why are you disobeying your spiritual orders not to leave

ISKCON? Without pleasing your spiritual master you are going

nowhere.

 

> But in order for that to happen, the institutional and

> individual practices of discrimination, fueled by long-held

> collective misunderstandings, have to cease.

 

Why are you so hung up on "discrimination"? Who's discriminating

against who? What are you on about?

 

The only person stopping you from doing something for ISKCON is

you.

 

> Srila dasa

 

Hare Krishna!!

 

ys

 

ada

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On 30 Jul 1999, Irvin H Collins wrote:

 

> However, unexamined loyalty also has its downside.

 

 

 

Fortunately, we have our lovable Srila to critically dissect every sentiment

ever expressed by the itty bitty ISKCON neophytes. Surely, he is but another

example of Krsna's unlimited mercy on the misguided 'eternally' conditioned

fallen souls.

 

Who needs to go outside of ISKCON when Krsna is obviously engaging his

intimate associates to come to us with the straight sauce.

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

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