Vedic India?

[Guest guest]

> > All of this has come into being literally after I

> > came here to India in 1974.

>

> Ah, yes, finally a reality check.

> >

> > It DOES NOT teach that women should be abused/battered/locked away in a

> > room or whatever apprehensions in this regard you have presented so far.

> > Far from that... females were to be shown the highest regard as "devis"

> > or goddesses...

>

> Thank you for a much more realistic response.

>

> I too am no fan of modern society. Unfortunately, the whole world is,

> as has been pointed out, becoming, or trying to become, Westernized.

> so while it is important for preservation efforts to go on to try and

> salvage what is left of Vedic culture in India, it is also important to

> face reality and think of how Krsna consciousness can not only survive,

> but thrive in modern culture. Idealistically clinging to some remnant of

> past glory may not be effective.

>

> Spirituality is not dependent on any material standard. Yes, wouldn't it

> be wonderful if all the women were first class. But we have seen that

> the women, who were submissive to the instruction to send their children

> away, then saw them abused Is it any wonder that the women might not

> consider the men first class?

>

> As men, let's worry about being first class men. Even as big a feminist

> as Jane Fonda, once she met a man who was appropriate for her... So

> let's not wait for the women to become submissive village women while the

> men live urban lifestyles, dependent on others for the very food they

> eat. First let's see what kind of a system we can evolve that makes

> ISKCON a land based society in the modern world of current reality. It

> may mean that some of the old customs aren't as viable as they once were

> in order to accomplish that.

 

Thank YOU for the balanced response, Prabhu. In my most humble opinion it's

quite a change from the "oppose everything tooth & nail" mood that you've

displayed in past messages.

 

Still... I find it hard to agree with the last sentence above... but I'll

drop any discussion on it. Actually, I can agree with it to some extent...

but don't want to get into quibbling over the details...

[Guest guest]

>I thought we were talking about the incident at the Krishna Balaram Mandir

>in Vrindavan where Western ISKCON Matajis have demanded & seemingly been

>awarded "equal rights" with the men.

 

OK. Here are some relevant words from Srila Prabhupda on the topic of equal

spiritual rights.

 

*****************************************

Morning walk Dec 10 1975:

 

Indian man: Women are subordinate.

Prabhupada: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are

different. It does not mean... That is another mistake.

 

**********************

 

Prabhupada: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our

society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Krsna

consciousness. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is

some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's

all. Otherwise, the rights are the same.

 

Prof. O'Connell: Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in

the line of disciplic succession?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Jahnava devi was -- Nityananda's wife. She

became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it

is not possible to become guru?

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal

 

****************************

 

Who has introduced these things, that women cannot have

chanting japa in the temple, they cannot perform the arati and so

many things? If they become agitated, then let the brahmacaris go

to the forest, I have never introduced these things. The brahmacaris

cannot remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they

may go to the forest, not remaining in New York City, because in

New York there are so many women, so how they can avoid

seeing?

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Ekayani -- Bombay 3 December,

1972

***********************************

Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with

women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do

not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away

from the women."

 

Prabhupada: That means he has got distinction between men and

women. He is not yet pandit. Panditah sama-darsinah [bg. 5.18].

He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his

words? He is a fool.

 

Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make...

 

Prabhupada: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's

all. She is my mother." That's all. Matrvat para-daresu. Then what

is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What

is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the

forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city?

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi

[Guest guest]

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Dear Madhusudani Radha Prabhu:

 

> We just need to be careful before we preach to devotees that everything

> Indian is good and everything Western is bad. It's obviously more complex

> than that.

 

Actually, anything and everything that is bad with India is due to Western

influence, and everything good in India is so due to its Vedic heritage.

 

It's a pity that after so much time in India and Indian clinics, as well as

clinics in other parts of the world, you did not appreciate (or enquire?)

the reason for India's glory as well as its present-day ignominy. For then

you would have arrived at the conclusion I have stated above.

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Nayan.

[Guest guest]

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Madhusudani Radha Prabhu:

 

> I agree completely. If the issue is that we need to focus on those aspects

> of Indian culture

 

ALL aspects of Indian culture are good! It is the western influence in India

that is bad. The same goes for ISKCON.

 

> And I just don't seee how imitating those

> aspects of Indian culture that are associated with alcoholism, domestic

> violence and STDs are going to get us any closer to Krsna.

 

Huh? Do you honestly think alcoholism, illicit sex, etc. are aspects of

Indian culture? Think again, please! If anything, they are western

'culture'. Besides, I had the good fortune to see at first hand -- even as a

second generation Indian -- the application and adherence of a Vedic

Vaisnava culture, not only in my family but in the whole Indian community. I

never came across such things as alcoholism or illicit sex. Indian culture

(the meaning of culture is 'form or type of civilization') is entirely Vedic

in character; problems such as alcoholism and illicit sex are currently part

of Indian society (not culture) due the influence of the West. It is sad,

and needs correcting desperately.

 

A dead elephant is worth just as much as when it is alive. This was a

proverb Srila Prabhupada quoted. Similarly, Indian culture is dying (or is

practically dead) due to the influence of the West. But it still is just as

valuable to imbibe.

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Nayan.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/25/99 6:14:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

julie.bernstein (AT) gwl (DOT) com writes:

 

<<

WOW! Thank you Madhusudani for opening our eyes!

 

The influences of the age are everywhere! I wish we could all read what you

wrote and feel a communal urgency to spread the Holy Name as a team;

women/men/children/bramacari/bramacarini/ householder /sanyasi/etc.

 

How strong can our army be if the soldiers are fighting?

 

Jagarini dd

 

>>

GOOD POINT!

 

YS, Kusha mata

[Guest guest]

> well. Before that, already, I have heard horrible facts regarding

> homosexuality in bengal. Your hair will erect still on your head if you

> knew about them.

>

> Ys

As far as I heard it is ONLY 80%. ISKCON will really have to endeavor to

achieve that ideal, even after all those child-abuse cases.

[Guest guest]

> Hmm? "Prabhupada was quite deceived with the Indian mentality?" What are

> you saying? Did you mean to use a word other than "deceived?" If so, what

> should the word have been????

>

 

Ahhh! the words. Disappointed I meant. Thank you.

 

In case, more clarification is needed, I will say that when Srila Prabhupada

came to America he did not praise much the enthusiasm of his compatriots for

KC. Also, in more than one occasion, he revealed his dissatisfaction towards

his godbrothers who did not help him much. He actually made a rule for us to

not go and associate with the Gaudhya math. They were the highest spiritual

personalities in India! What to speak of associating with the regular karmi!

He even sometime glorified the English when they were managing India.

 

Does that make any sense? What Madhusudani gave is important if we want to

have a good understanding of the situation in India. It will allow us to be

more mature in our presentation of the philosophy. We need more of such

qualified devotees, thousands of them, and we should also "learn" to respect

them a little bit more for their dedication.

 

Now if we want only the back of the chicken and not the head, yes we should

silence her; and all the ones that do not enter into the ISKCON paradigm

that no one has yet defined clearly.

Ys

[Guest guest]

>Also, in more than one occasion, he revealed his dissatisfaction towards

>his godbrothers who did not help him much.

 

This is not relevant. Srila Prabhuapda was dissatisfied with somethings,

but he was also satisfied with others. Marriage, as it is generally

practiced in India, is one of the aspects of contemporary society he had

high regard for.

[Guest guest]

> >Also, in more than one occasion, he revealed his dissatisfaction towards

> >his godbrothers who did not help him much.

>

> This is not relevant. Srila Prabhuapda was dissatisfied with somethings,

> but he was also satisfied with others. Marriage, as it is generally

> practiced in India, is one of the aspects of contemporary society he had

> high regard for.

 

I have hard time to follow you.

Anyway, if marriage is your main concern, here is a little equation which

you seem to be fond of.

Good Marriage = good children.

Good children = cultured persons

Cultured persons = favorable to sadhus

Favorable to sadhus = Srila Prabhupada followers

Srila Prabhupada followers = A movement in India

A movement in India = Big money

 

He came without money, because of one -woman- who was in charge of a big

enterprise and for whom he had lot of respect.

 

So in regard to this history and its social consequenses, which we can say

it is truly ours, in what sense do you consider that men and women in India

are superior to us, who have given our best years in sacrifice for Srila

Prabhupada?

Ys

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Thank YOU for the balanced response, Prabhu. In my most humble opinion it's

> quite a change from the "oppose everything tooth & nail" mood that you've

> displayed in past messages.

 

Actually, I was going to say the same thing to you. I felt I was simply

mirroring back your more reasonable approach.

 

>

>

> Still... I find it hard to agree with the last sentence above... but I'll

> drop any discussion on it. Actually, I can agree with it to some extent...

> but don't want to get into quibbling over the details...

 

Because, for one thing, the details that work in India may not work in

America, and vice versa.

[Guest guest]

>So in regard to this history and its social consequenses, which we can say

>it is truly ours, in what sense do you consider that men and women in India

>are superior to us, who have given our best years in sacrifice for Srila

>Prabhupada?

 

Please dont think I am saying that Indians are superior to western devotees,

particularly with regard to spiritual life. However, western devotees

should not think that they have nothing to learn from Indians, particularly

when Srila Prabhupada points out an aspect of Indian life that he feels is

something his disciples should adopt.

 

Marriage, in and of itself, is NOT spiritual. Obviously, you do not need to

be married to be a devotee.

 

Nonetheless, many devotees (if not most) get married, because they have to

work through some desires (usually material desires--desire for a nuptial

relationship, children, etc.--none of which are essential to bhakti).

 

The devotional service of devotees who are not pure (have some lingering

material conditioning) will necessarily be favorably or unfavorably affected

by one's environemnt, circumstances, association, and, to a greater or

lesser degree, because one of the symptoms of pure bhakti is that it is

uninterrupted by any material circumstance.

 

Therefore, in order to help devotees in their devotional service, a

favorable material circumstance (arrangement) will minimize (but not

eradicate) the problems that distract a devotee from his (or her) service.

Marriage is one such arrangement.

 

"Similarly, a sannyasi may perform a marriage ceremony to help his disciple

in the advancement of Krsna consciousness. If one renounces such activities,

it is to be understood that he is acting in the mode of darkness." (BG 18.7

purport)

 

[The above is not the best quote for this, but I don't think anyone will

disagree that marriage is meant to help devotees with their service]

 

Certainly, as Mataji Madhusudani Radha pointed out, Kali-yuga has progressed

in India. But marriage, as it is in India today, is still quite the

respected institution Srila Prabhupada had regard for, and yes, Indian

marriages in general are something western devotees can learn from, even if

the Indians are spiritually inferior to them.

 

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das

[Guest guest]

> >I thought we were talking about the incident at the Krishna Balaram

> >Mandir in Vrindavan where Western ISKCON Matajis have demanded &

> >seemingly been awarded "equal rights" with the men.

>

> OK. Here are some relevant words from Srila Prabhupda on the topic of

> equal spiritual rights.

 

OK. Good quotes Mataji. You may kindly note in the 2nd quote below SP says

"so we keep women separately from men".

 

And what about the myriad other quotes where SP says that equality is

artifical? And that marriage can only be happy (read the article I posted

from the Chicago Tribune about the broken families in the USA) if the wife

is subordinate to the husband?

 

But yes, on the absolute level, we have BG 9.34, where Lord Krishna clearly

says that even women, shudras and friends of the twice born, who have taken

lower births (the word in Samskrita used by the Lord is "papa-yonayaha" or

literally "sinful wombs") can attain the supreme destination if they

surrender unto Him.

 

The thing is that surrender unto Him means adopting vedic culture and

morality too. Which I know that you'll agree with; at least in part (the

morality part... or at least part of the morality part... so that people

won't get STD's, etc., right?)

 

 

> *****************************************

> Morning walk Dec 10 1975:

>

> Indian man: Women are subordinate.

> Prabhupada: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are

> different. It does not mean... That is another mistake.

>

> **********************

>

> Prabhupada: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our

> society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Krsna

> consciousness. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is

> some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's

> all. Otherwise, the rights are the same.

>

> Prof. O'Connell: Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in

> the line of disciplic succession?

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. Jahnava devi was -- Nityananda's wife. She

> became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it

> is not possible to become guru?

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal

>

> ****************************

>

> Who has introduced these things, that women cannot have

> chanting japa in the temple, they cannot perform the arati and so

> many things? If they become agitated, then let the brahmacaris go

> to the forest, I have never introduced these things. The brahmacaris

> cannot remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they

> may go to the forest, not remaining in New York City, because in

> New York there are so many women, so how they can avoid

> seeing?

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Ekayani -- Bombay 3 December,

> 1972

> ***********************************

> Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with

> women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do

> not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away

> from the women."

>

> Prabhupada: That means he has got distinction between men and

> women. He is not yet pandit. Panditah sama-darsinah [bg. 5.18].

> He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his

> words? He is a fool.

>

> Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make...

>

> Prabhupada: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's

> all. She is my mother." That's all. Matrvat para-daresu. Then what

> is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What

> is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the

> forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city?

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi

[Guest guest]

> Basu Ghosh wrote:

> The thing is that surrender unto Him means adopting vedic culture and

> morality too. Which I know that you'll agree with; at least in part (the

> morality part... or at least part of the morality part... so that people

> won't get STD's, etc., right?)

 

 

I was wondering what you propose we do with all these devotees who don't

stack up to the 'moral' and 'Vedic' standards as you see them? Shall we

shuffle them off the train going back Home? How are they to become cleansed?

Did you start your devotional service clean? Or were you in the shower for

awhile, too?

 

Personally, I think we will all be in the shower for a long, long time to

come and I really don't think we are in any position to say how long a

person will be in the shower. No one can expedite their advancement without

the causeless mercy of the Lord.

 

We will always find so many variations of devotees all of whom the Lord

loves very much. He considers them as mahatmas, even those who come to Him

for nothing more than money or out of distress, what to speak of coming into

the temple to worship Him.

 

We find many great devotee prostitutes in "Vedic India" along with society

girl devotees who would greet the Lord in the streets personally and mixing

freely with the Lord and His associates. Sometimes they would celebrate and

throw yogurt and liquids at each other and the womens bodies would show

through their wet clothes. They were devotees of the Lord.

 

The men did not corral these women and force them to the roofs where some

other women chose voluntarily to go. The Lord nor the other men did not

chastise these women or physically restrain them in any way from associating

with the Lord. If there were men who chose voluntarily not to be in

proximity to women due to vows of celibacy and penance I'm sure they chose

other places to associate with the Lord. And I'm sure the Lord also makes

Himself available to those men in places which are conducive for their

particular choices of worship. The Lord can be found everywhere, not only in

the temples and churches.

 

Certainly the many women of ISKCON are not prostitutes and many are not the

type that would choose to go to the roofs to associate with the Lord either.

But somewhere in between both of those types of devotees of the Lord they

find themselves. They are mahatmas.

 

Personally, I think the Pandavas would have behaved entirely differently in

the Vrindavana temple. While they certainly understood material nature and

its inequities between the sexes, they would more often put women and others

on pedestals of honor because they were in no way threatened by them or in

fear of not being able to associate with the Lord in any circumstance.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/25/99 1:18:23 PM Central Standard Time,

Nayan.Ruparelia (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<<

Actually, anything and everything that is bad with India is due to Western

influence, and everything good in India is so due to its Vedic heritage.

>>

I spent three years in Vrndavana and it never dawned on me that the problems

of deforestation, pollution of the Yamuna and general unsanitation and

uncleanliness were imported from the West. I saw this simply as the influence

of Kali yuga. So perhaps you could elaborate on your above statement and give

your comments on my observations.

 

 

Your servant,

 

Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

> I spent three years in Vrndavana and it never dawned on me that the

> problems of deforestation, pollution of the Yamuna and general

> unsanitation and uncleanliness were imported from the West.

 

Pollution of the Yamuna started with the British introducing their 'sewage

system' which essentially means to pollute the rivers and oceans with

sewage. Then the industries send their wastage to the rivers. This also

causes pollution. Vedic civilization, on the whole, is geared towards simple

living: you wouldn't have massive factories polluting the rivers in such a

civilization.

 

But you seem to have digressed. The subject matter under discussion was

social ills such as illicit sex, aids, smoking, etc. To this effect, I

submit a quote of Srila Prabhupada giving a lecture on S.B. 7.6.4 in Toronto

(June 20, 1976):

 

Therefore my request to persons who have joined this Krsna consciousness

movement, they should very carefully keep them as first-class men. People

will appreciate and they will try to follow. Yad yad acarati sresthas tat

tad evetaro janah. If there is a class of men first class, then people will

appreciate. At least, they will try to follow, even though are unable to

become first class. They will try to follow. Tat tad eva, sa yat pramanam

kurute lokas tad anuvartate. So that is first-class man required. If he

acts, then others will follow. If a teacher does not smoke, the students

also will stop smoking naturally. But if the teacher is smoking, how the

students...? They are also smoking in the class. I have seen in New York. At

least in India this is not yet begun. It will begin. Because they are also

making progress. (laughter) These rascals are making progress, going to

hell.

 

> I saw this simply as the influence of Kali yuga. So perhaps you could

elaborate on

> your above statement and give your comments on my observations.

 

Actually, present day "civilization" is global. You are right. I have seen

documentaries where the women here in England did not even drink alcohol

about fifty or sixty years ago. They then started to join in with their

peers, and also due to vast advertisements targeted at them. So, generally,

society everywhere is definitely becoming degraded due to the influence of

Kali. However, before the remnants of Vedic culture die in India, it is upon

us to at least understand the culture and imbibe it within ISKCON, as Srila

Prabhupada says:

 

S.B. 6.7.13 PURPORT

Such is the conduct visible in the Vedic civilization. A civilization in

which the people do not know how the representative of Narada and Krsna

should be respected, how society should be formed and how one should advance

in Krsna consciousness—a society concerned only with manufacturing new cars

and new skyscrapers every year and then breaking them to pieces and making

new ones—may be technologically advanced, but it is not a human

civilization. A human civilization is advanced when its people follow the

catur-varnya system, the system of four orders of life. There must be ideal,

first-class men to act as advisors, second-class men to act as

administrators, third-class men to produce food and protect cows, and

fourth-class men who obey the three higher classes of society. One who does

not follow the standard system of society should be considered a fifth-class

man. A society without Vedic laws and regulations will not be very helpful

to humanity. As stated in this verse, dharmam te na param viduh: such a

society does not know the aim of life and the highest principle of religion.

 

And also:

 

Pandal Lecture: S.B. 2.3.18-19

March 23, 1977.

 

It is not possible, of course, to realize Brahman by everyone. That is not

possible. But there must be an ideal institution. Unfortunately, at the

present moment it is very difficult to find out where is that ideal

brähmaëa, but there must be. Krsna says. Our Krsna consciousness movement

includes this, that c€tur-varŠyaˆ maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. There

must be division. There may be only a few number of brähmaëas, but there

must be ideal brahmanas so that people may learn that “Here is the

first-class brahmana. Here is the first-class man. Let us take instruction

from him, not from so-called politicians.” This is Indian civilization.

Don’t think... Formerly even Lord Ramacandra, who was the king... He is God

Himself. Still, He used to consult learned brahmanas, sages, saintly

persons, for governmental duties. The division must be there.

 

So there are so many things to be done in Krsna consciousness movement.

Don’t take it that it is simply chanting Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna chanting is

the prime factor because if you chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra, then gradually

everything will be clear in your mind. Ceto-darpana-marjanam

bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Whole world is suffering on account of all

contaminated things accumulated within our heart. So the Bhagavata process

is to hear from the right person.

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Nayan.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada said:

> Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very

>peacefully.

>From Conversation, May 14 1975 Perth

 

So Prabhupada was relying on 1975 statistics. It's therefore offensive to

him to assume that he would still make the same statement today when the

statistics are different.

 

Prabhupada said:

>However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation.

 

Now "quarrelsome" is one thing, physical abuse, rape, alcoholism and

adultery another. Do you really think Prabhupada would refer to such

serious issues as merely quarrel? I find that insulting to our ever

well-wisher.

 

The bottom line is that you still have not provided any instances of

Prabhupada's holding up *all* Indian couples as role models, or of his

endorsing any of the immoral, criminal activities, just because they

occurred in India. He was not a racist.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>The bottom line is that you still have not provided any instances of

>Prabhupada's holding up *all* Indian couples as role models,

 

With all due respect, please read the quote I am now posting for a third

time, and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

 

"Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very

peacefully. And in

the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce." (May 14, 1975

Perth)

[Guest guest]

> >The bottom line is that you still have not provided any instances of

> >Prabhupada's holding up *all* Indian couples as role models,

>

> With all due respect, please read the quote I am now posting for a third

> time, and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

>

> "Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very

> peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage,

> divorce." (May 14, 1975 Perth)

 

 

Dear Krsna Kirti, if you really wish to demonstrate to everybody

that Srila Prabhupada is *holding up* (The Simple Continuos Tense

being used here) how all Indian couples are to be our role models

now, I guess you would succeed only by going now and asking him

about. What I consider quite an impossible task for you.

 

 

 

The difficulties arise constantly when some SP's relative quote is

viewed as of absolute meaning, as if relevant to all people, and in

all times. It might note have been absolute even then, 25 years ago.

Namely, in the country where I am coming from (it's a Western country),

25 years ago a divorce "after six months' marriage" was exceptionally

rare. So using the same way Srila Prabhupada did, in order to emphasis

a particular point, one could say nowadays: "... And in India

after six month's marriage, set a wife on a fire to get a dowry". But

this is not even the issue, how much Prabhupada was accurate in his

generalizations in term of social facts (like "after six months, divorce"),

or wether he was simply emphasizing certain points. Point is, you

can't simply grab for such a relative quote from some past and keep

"proving" how, "See, this confirms the present social situation.

Prabhupada is saying". No. Prabhupada is not saying. It's nice to read

what he said and understand that his lasting message to us was to

strive for a peieceful marriage and without divorce.

 

 

When we observe what's currently happening with the particular

society, taking some SP's quotes from a quarter of a century ago

as our present "bookmarks" is hopeless. The India of nowadays is a

place of a big mess, more or less like the rest of the world. Watch

out not to step on a stool or get stubbed by a knife when walking in

dark. In Mayapur, the naive Western devotees wisitors (esspecially

girls!) are better to be adviced not to step otside the gates in

evening. Yes, sure, we know it, it's not the fault of India and

Indians, but of Margareth Thatcher, but still - watch out. You can

still be robed, raped, cheated, beaten up, murdered, and everything

else, in no time. In the "Vedic" India.

 

Yes, in India you can still encounter far lesser percents of divorce

rates, but I find it to be a time to start acknowledging some practical

differences in between the position of a female population in India,

and the one on the West. You simply can't expect from a woman grown in

the West to not dare to go for a divorce option even under the

circumstances when her man brings her some venereal disease picked

out on the street from the prostitutes, or beats her black&blue, or is

even planing to set her on a fire. Yes, somebody might certainly bring

here the old good phrases "vedic culture" and "vedic woman" and then

try with it to impress the rest of the world with the "model-to-follow".

See, all you have to say is "an Indian couple" and everybody

got to fall over in owe and reverence (opps.. you got SP's quote.

 

Those who are somewhat familiar with this eternal cyber space issue

"Indian Vedic versus Western Feminizi" might certainly be aware

what the corner stone of this entire "pro-Vedic movement" (read

"GHQ") was/is: *a Vedic women*. Like in India, right? All the social

problems are due to women being unsubmissive to men (there is SP quote,

yes, Prabhupada said it, not Mahanidhi nor GHQ). And see, India is an

ocean of social problems of the worst imaginable kind, from stepping

on a stool on a street till child&woman slavery&murder. Yeah, it must

be that feminist Margaret Thatcher, she is an indepedent woman, isn't

she?. But nevertheless, if even the chastity of the Vedic women of

India don't help India even an inch to get rid of one percent of the

social problems that India is drowning in, then what is for us, the

Western falk, to look upon? Get India's social problems in order first,

then go conquering the World, preaching to the Westerners how to solve

all their social problems "Sirs, you got to have obedient vedic women

only, like we got, and you will be solving all your social problems,

just like we do". Laughing is healthy.

 

---------------------

 

 

Actually, my main intention was to point how hopeless and meaningless

is this application of the kind of SP's words. These are occasional.

All one needs is to look through the window in order to see what kind

of a wether outside is at the moment.

 

 

 

- Mahanidhi d.

[Guest guest]

At 11:45 PM 11/28/99 -0500, Christopher Shannon wrote:

>>The bottom line is that you still have not provided any instances of

>>Prabhupada's holding up *all* Indian couples as role models,

>

>With all due respect, please read the quote I am now posting for a third

>time, and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

>

>"Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very

>peacefully. And in

>the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce." (May 14, 1975

>Perth)

 

In Kali-yuga one has to say certain things at the very minimum 3 times

before it is heard. Say it 3 lacs times if necessary. Don't let that

shameless madwoman squirm away without addressing that quote!!!

 

All glories to KKP!

[Guest guest]

Krsna-Kirti wrote:

>With all due respect, please read the quote I am now posting for a third

>time, and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

 

Please re-read my comment: This statement was made in 1975. Do you really

think Srila Prabhupada would be so stupid as to quote statistics that was

quarter of a century old today if they were no longer true? Of course he

wouldn't! It's an insult to say that. Prabhupada was on top of things in

the world and did not share your obsession with making India look like

something it wasn't.

 

>and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

 

You still have not provided any such quotes.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

ps. about Guru-Krsna's "madwoman" comment: Guess he is finally showing his

true self here. It's good and for the benefit of all readers, who might

have mistaken him for a gentleman in his previous, more carefully crafted

texts.

[Guest guest]

>Please re-read my comment: This statement was made in 1975. Do you really

>think Srila Prabhupada would be so stupid as to quote statistics that was

>quarter of a century old today if they were no longer true?

 

And what statistics, study, report, etc. was Srila Prabhupada quoting? He

wasn't. He was speaking from his personal experience. If you want to take

that 95% as a statistic, then you are trying to read something that is not

there. Srila Prabhupada is making a point that, and certainly at that time,

most all Indian couples were quite sober with regard to their married life.

 

Today, this is still quite true--most Indian couples are still quite sober

with regard to their married lives.

 

Don't you agree?

[Guest guest]

>>Today, this is still quite true--most Indian couples are still quite sober

with regard to their married lives.>>

 

This is going nowhere. Believe what you want. if you're happy believing that

India is perfect then that's your right. It doesn't jive with everyone else's

experience, but I guess that's irrelevant to you. Just don't accuse others of

being offensive to Srila Prabhupada for saying that India has its share of the

good, the bad and the ugly. That's unfair and untrue.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> In Kali-yuga one has to say certain things at the very minimum 3 times

> before it is heard. Say it 3 lacs times if necessary. Don't let that

> shameless madwoman squirm away without addressing that quote!!!

>

> All glories to KKP!

 

Guru-Krishna prabhu, this kind of writing shows just unculture and not a

vedic culture. In the vedic culture women were highly respected. Besides

that, calling other persons bad names doesn't belong to the Vaishnava

etiquette. If you don't like her point of vew, atleast you could agree that

you disagree about certain things, show respect and stop arguing forever.

It is geting boring. All this arguing back and force. We are the same

persons who have been already arguing about this for long time before, and I

don't think that anybody of us would change opinion about certain things.

So, further arguing is going to be just waste of time.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

>>>Today, this is still quite true--most Indian couples are still quite

sober

>with regard to their married lives.>>

>

>This is going nowhere. Believe what you want. if you're happy believing

that

>India is perfect then that's your right. It doesn't jive with everyone

else's

>experience, but I guess that's irrelevant to you.

 

Who said "India was perfect"? Show me where I said that? So far, I have

only been talking on one point: that a statement Srila Prabhupada made about

Indian couples, in general, is still quite true to day, despite the changes

India has undergone.

 

>Just don't accuse others of

>being offensive to Srila Prabhupada for saying that India has its share of

the

>good, the bad and the ugly.

 

Even Srila Prabhupada had his criticisms of India, and Indians, even in his

day. But he did also have his praise for India, and he was quite definite

about what was good and what was bad. Marriage was one of the aspects of

Indian society he lauded. My experience has been that his statements are

still quite true.

 

I have personally learned a lot from Indians, devotees and non-devotees

even, while living among them in India. Those things I have learned have

been valuable in demonstrating some of the points of Vedic culture Srila

Prabhupada speaks about in his books. And yes, that includes marriage.

 

It is one thing to read about Vedic culture, but it is quite a different

thing to get to see it first hand, particularly after having read about

Srila Prabhupada's description of Vedic culture and India. For these

reasons, although you and others may be annoyed with my lauding Vedic

culture, I do so out of gratitude.

 

You can see the bad side, but for what purpose? To get inspiration for

preaching, and to somehow or other, as far as possible, rescue and restore

Vedic culture, and make India what it should be, a spiritual guide for the

rest of the world. But you won't do that by introducing western customs

there (as have a section of western ladies in Vrindavan have been doing).

 

And there should be no question of discrediting the positive aspects, of

which marriage continues to be one of them.

 

I hope you get a chance to visit India and stay there for some time--not

with regard to some AIDS clinic, but to actually go there with the primary

purpose being culturally and spiritually enriched. Then, perhaps, you can

understand why I and others who have spent an extended duration in India

have so much appreciation for India.

 

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das

[Guest guest]

On 28 Nov 1999, Christopher Shannon wrote:

 

> >The bottom line is that you still have not provided any instances of

> >Prabhupada's holding up *all* Indian couples as role models,

>

> With all due respect, please read the quote I am now posting for a third

time, and then tell me that I have not provided such quotes:

>

> "Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very

peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce."

(May 14, 1975 Perth)

>

 

 

 

Hmmm. My folks divorced after about 18 years -- does that means 6 months of

the demigod. I mean, if they had me as a kid, they must be demigods, or

something.

 

In any event, to me it appears obvious that Prabhupada was using this

'statistic' as an off the cuff sound bite to make a more significant point

during what seems most likely to be a class or casual conversation. I am

doubtful it was his intention to be launching any carears by utilizing this

statement alone.

 

ys,

 

Sthita