RE: Vedic Agenda, Samba in Spain, Vrindavan Goshalla

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhus,

PAMHO AGTSP

 

I seem to remember a quote where Srila Prabhupada answered that "village

means 15 families" - has anyone seen this too?

 

What are the 25 trades required for self-sufficiency?

 

100 families seems a lot for a 'village'. When I was growing up I lived

in much smaller villages. But I suppose you could argue that the fuel to

make the tractors work was not produced in the village.

 

Has anyone looked into the Amish to see their notions of village size

and when new villages are created?

 

Kripamoya das

 

 

Prabhupadacarya (das) (New Delhi - IN)

[Prabhupadacarya (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

15 November 2004 02:05

Modern Culture in Relation to Varnashrama

Vedic Agenda, Samba in Spain, Vrindavan Goshalla

 

 

 

Dear Prabhupadaacarya Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

We have read the Vedic Agenda and found it valuable and thank you for

submitting it. However, the real work is in the implementation on a

practical level. This is the greatest challenge. How is this to be done?

 

Your servant,

Chayadevi

 

************************************************************

 

Dear Mataji,

PAMHO AGTSP

 

Thanks for the encouragement. Somehow I never received this. I just sent

a command to download all texts from Cow Conference and it appeared. I

think I must have had an error in downloading it when it originally

came.

 

Anyway, these are eternal topics, so I will answer you now 7 months

late.

 

The Vedic Agenda is divided into 2 phases: 1) preparation and 2)

implementation. The first three agenda items constitute preparation,

namely:

 

Vedic Agenda Item #1) To establish self-realization/spiritual

development as the goal of human society.

 

This is THE MOST IMPORTANT 1st step. Without the members of the society

agreeing on this point, varnasrama and cow protection won't make

socio-economic sense. When this point is firmly understood and accepted

then varnasrama and cow protection become the optimal socio-economic

solution.

 

I congratulate Samba Prabhu for sticking to his varnasrama-guns for his

decision to depend on the natural resources for meeting his basic

economic necessities, but I suggest that he will not be able to do so

indefinitely until he has at least 100 families who possess the

requisite minimal skills (approx 25 trades) needed for self-suffiency.

 

I would not want to contemplate starting a varnasrama village project

with anything less. "First bring money then talk business" certainly

applies here. Until you begin with the requisite capital, like in any

business, you are asking for trouble and endangering the reputation of

the concept. For example, Srila Prabhupada refused to open a Govinda's

restaurant until it was adequately capitalized with "decorations" and so

on.

 

Undercapitalization is one of the major causes of business failures and

if we analyze our history of varnasrama failures, I suspect we will find

this to be the major culprit. I recall Samba telling me this was the

cause of the termination of his previous efforts in Mauritius, etc.

History repeats.

 

Until a project has the requisite resources to make a successful go at

developing a truly self-sufficient village, I suggest we not qualify it

as anything other than a modern rural housing settlement and leave out

names like "varnasrama village" etc. until the project is in a position

to actualy attempt one. Otherwise, devotees and leaders develop negative

attitudes towards the VA village concept thinking "It never works" or it

"will never work".

 

As I see it Samba has two choices, 1) bring money from outside by fund

raising or doing business. 2) engage the ample resources he already has

to attract the needed capital to him. I suggest the later since I don't

imagine there are too many people who are going to appreciate the value

of contributing to a farm project these days, whereas people would want

the benefit of having a cottage/home in a quiet natural setting in a

spiritual community.

 

I question whether ISKCON has ever made a REAL effort to develop a

village from the perspective of capitalization. I question whether we

have ever been in a position to do so. Face it, we lack the skilled

devotees, at least in any given project. My awareness of New Vrindavan

is almost nil, so perhaps we had/have something there. I hear the same

story being repeated globally "Not enough men and not enough money".

 

The GBC resolutions state, if I recall, that "no new farms will be

approved unless and until they are "fully self-sufficient" from the

beginning". I initially resisted this as a serious obstacle to

development, but have come to realize that it addresses our actual major

obstacle to development, i.e. undercapitalization. Capital here is

understood as "the means of production", or people with skills, land,

animals, water, etc. I now have to agree with the wisdom of that GBC

resolution.

 

Practical implementation of varnasrama cannot be entertained unless and

until we acquire the knowledge resources. The Vedic Agenda addresses

this need in the next two items of the preparation phase:

 

2) Establish Vedic literatures as the philosophical basis for society.

3) Establish Vedic educational institutions (i.e. gurukulas and

varnasrama colleges).

 

There really is no question about it. This was Srila Prabhupada's

strategy and it makes perfect sense when we do the practical analysis.

He created a society for like-minded people on the basis of spiritual

development, published books, and opened gurukulas and then tried to

establish colleges.

 

Establish varnasrama colleges wherever we have a center, IMMEDIATELY.

Somehow this isn't sinking in. I would rather see Samba developing

curriculum for the first true varnasrama college, than what he is doing

in what appears as another frustrating economic struggle with two

families. He has to bring knowledge and capital to the project from the

outside to be able to recruit, train and engage the 100+ families he

will require to achieve self-sufficiency. I say this to protect Samba

(one of ISKCON's most valuable assets in relation with VAD) from VA

Burn-out, not to put him or his great efforts down. If Samba burns out

and gives up on VA development because ISKCON is not fully capitalizing

his efforts, then ISKCON has lost a significant asset. I suggest ISKCON

serious take up an assessment of his needs and work cooperatively to

meet them.

 

Without skilled devotees we have no hope. With skilled devotees you can

achieve all the resources you need. I suggest that going after land,

developing land, breeding cows, etc. before preparing the devotees is

putting the cart before the horse.

 

Ok, land is already there is many places, so in those areas, before

building any significant development projects, the first project should

be developing the gurukula/varnasrama college. I have not read all his

texts, so surely that is one of his aims.

 

If Samba can make those straw bale houses and invite some brahmanas to

teach essential subjects, then we are moving in Srila Prabhupada's

direction. This will require outside capitalization in the beginning

until your vaisya engine is running and outputing grains and milk. You

need an engine and ISKCON's efforts have always depended on book

distribution and then paintings.

 

 

For Spain, who already has a great headstart with paid land, I can't

really comment without knowing all the constraints, but perhaps I will

suggest (condsider this nothing more than brainstorming) involving

wealthy donors and investors who are not looking for a significant

return. The money is already there in the hands of many favorable

devotees and friends of ISKCON, so we just need to engage it with a

reasonable plan and approach. Devotees are buying land, so why not at

your place?

 

But until the skilled devotees are there, all the finances in the world

are not going to help you become self-sufficient.

 

I propose ISKCON brahmanas cooperate on developing first a complete

outline for an online varnasrama college. A website that trains devotees

in all four varnas and necessary trades to conduct a self-sufficient

community. In this way, overnight, every temple with an internet

connection has a varnasrama college, to some degree. ISKCON should

invest in this.

 

Unfortunately there is no ISKCON in a collective sense, and Srila

Prabhupada wanted it that way. There is a federation of otherwise

independent temples. Which temple will bear the brunt? That every temple

is expected to develop its own curriculum is unreasonable and why it has

never happened. So Srila Prabhupada's idea was some brahmanas learn a

subject and travel around and train others.

 

Ok. Clearly we are talking about brahmacaris here and sannyasis who will

require the temple to pay for their transportation and given them

facilities when they arrive. But they need people to teach, who will in

turn train others. If these people move or leave, there goes your

efforts. We need a way to maintain the knowledge and the internet

appears viable. But first temples have to learn the value of sponsoring

this. Unless there is a farm nearby for these trained devotees to

implement this, where is the hope/scope and value in learning how to

make cow dung cakes if I live in the inner-city and sell stickers all

day at the stop lights?

 

I question how many travelling brahmanas we have that have relevant

knowledge in requisite skills for VA training since ISKCON has developed

over the years as brahminically-top-heavy. Meaning that devotees have

not been valuing other branches of knowledge enough to invest in their

study. I don't see any VIHE course on basket making, kartala making,

cloth weaving, etc. YET Srila Prabhupada invested $1000s to send

devotees to India to learn these skills and then go and train others in

various centers.

 

I suggest that if temples are ready to collect and contribute millions

to fund court cases, they should be willing to collect and contribute at

least as much to educational development along these lines. That ISKCON

hasn't done this, I suggest, has given rise to such court cases. Had the

gurukulis been trained and engaged within ISKCON in a varna and asrama,

how likely would they be to sign on to a court case against ISKCON? You

either pay upfront and implement the guru's order, or you pay later in

the form of court cases, seems to be the painful lesson.

 

India is where the knowledge is, to a greater extent, and is relatively

a cheap place to live. We need to collect, compile and translate the

required knowledge into course material and upload it on a website with

video clips, and other how-to tips. That will take many researchers and

a significant amount of time and capital. We have wasted so many decades

and now millions of dollars. Why can't Vrindavan temple take those 60

village brahmacaris and teach them English and prepare them for teaching

self-sufficiency skills? During Srila Prabhupada's time we didn't have

such brahmacaris in India. Why not utilize them?

 

What do we have available to us now? VIHE has only brahminical courses.

Same for RVC I believe. What has ISCOWP developed in the form of

curriculum for vaisyas? I am developing a training course for ksatriyas.

We have many brahmacaris from Indian villages who I suggest may prove to

be a wealth of untapped knowledge for vaisya and sudra trades that I

imagine far surpasses the VAD value of the IIT and JNU class

India-ISKCON is hankering after.

 

These are the guys perhaps with the knowledge who actually WANT to

travel to foreign countries, and all they require is to learn how to

speak English, in most cases. Many already do speak English. They don't

value their, what India calls "Backward" knowledge and skills, and

neither is ISKCON, other than persons like Samba and others who have

implemented the first item of the Vedic Agenda and thus value the Vedic

socio-economic model.

 

Brahmacaris/inis can take courses online (to some degree) and then go to

some farm to complete the theoretical teaching with some hands on

apprenticeship/workshops, etc. Vrindavana dn Mayapur should have such

global VAD learning centers for hands-on practical training.

 

To get properly capitalized I suggest Samba gives land to those who are

in a position to meet his interests. In other words, allow wealthy

devotees to come build their house and tie up a little plot of land for

their lifetime, but also require them to donate to building your

varnasrama college facilities (asrama, classrooms residential quarters

for teachers, etc), and residential quarters for those 100 families you

are going to train and engage after graduation to achieve

self-sufficiency. If you don't have enough land to accomodate the

investors and the 100 families, then you need to make a plan for

acquiring more land unless you can get outright donations. Try for cash

donations, and if tht doesnt work, offer land packages.

 

This will prevent Samba from having to go outside to bring in the needed

capital. Just put your modern housing development off to the side and

try to engage them as best as you can to achieve your agenda. Make sure

they are fairly wealthy and cultivate them so they can help you in the

ongoing development of the project.

 

In short, you need knowledgable people and wealthy people at this point.

Bring the wealthy people in such a way that they will facilitate the

knowledgable people. You might have to make some temporary

bio-compromises to bring the wealthy people, but that beats selling

stickers and paintings. It also brings potential wealth to your

community for future development. Think estate planning.

 

You should also have a monthly membership fee for these people to meet

your monthly expenses until the first batch of graduates starts meeting

the economic needs of the village. Thereafter you can stop leasing plots

and use the monthly dues for acquiring more land, etc. Of course this

all depends upon the amount of land you have. I suggest any project with

anything less than 1000 acres, or 500 at the least, that wants to talk

about self-sufficiency, is asking for trouble over the mid to long term.

 

Remember, according to Canakya, a village is defined as 100-500

families. Less than 100 is not sustainable, and more than 500 is not

manageable. If you can't see it, you can't manage it. You can't know and

interact with more than 500 families as a ksatriya responsible for a

village. Beyond 500 you start creating anonymity, where you have people

living in your village who you don't even know. This impersonalism and

relationship disconnect between praja and ruler gives scope for theft,

unemployment, prostitution, gambling, illegal slaughter, and drug

dealing. In other words, you'll start having "city-problems".

 

In time Samba's cottage-plots will be converted to the self-sufficient

model as the children of these cottage-plots attend your college and

settle into a self-sufficient occupation within the village. That of

course depends on the depth of your vision and your preaching ability.

 

Whatever you do, don't sell the land outright.

 

Here is a summary of some things we can practically do towards

implementation:

 

1) Achieving Capitalization for Self-Sufficient Villages: Lifeleases on

cottage-plots to wealthy families on condition that they contribute a

one-time lump sum for the VA college and a monthly community membership

fee to meet the college opeating expenses. This model could be tested n

and then applies to all our farm projects.

 

2) Developing VA College in Every Center: organize global consortium to

develop VA college curriculum on Net. Along with 3) Hands-on VAD

training villages in Vrindavan and Mayapur for those taking online

courses.

 

4) Leveraging our Knowledge Resources: Identify our knowledge resources

and make a global cooperative plan to tap those resources (i.e.

travelling village-brahmacaris, etc) Along with 5) Educating ISKCON

leaders (GBC. TP, gurus, Sannyasis, etc) on the importance and value of

VAD and the Vedic Agenda.

 

6) Broader course development by VIHE, RVC, and others for ksatriya,

vaisya and sudra skills, trades, etc.

 

 

 

 

Village means two villages, and two means four. As the thing grows,

people marry, children are produced, then you need another village in

time. This is government work, and governments need land. When they run

out of land they try to annex more. If you are getting into the village

business, you need land.

 

The culture of stagnant development ISKCON management culture suffers

from in many areas that "lowers its sites to one temple building that

has a fixed number of rooms, and after it is purchased, that is it-- "No

more room for more devotees", and the ensuing facilities-politics over

the limited resources like we recently saw in Vrindavan with the

brahmacaris, and the recent posting about the Vrindavan goshalla and its

land requirements.

 

Face it, a society can't stop growing. We must always be acquiring

resources as we acquire devotees. You can't just say we are going to buy

this 500 acres, make a village, and our job is done. I'd guess ISKCON

outgrew its facilities decades ago and we have never caught up. I

suggest we need to define models for temples, villages, etc. with

people, cow and space requirements and develop to that standard. Once a

project reaches capacity, we start another one and send the overflow

there instead of just "packing them in like sardines" to watch them

"fight like dogs", and then "run away like chickens".

 

ISKCON needs to invest in land and facilities. Of course, we should

properly utilize what we already have. For example, I daily see a sign

on a parcel of land on the way to the Vrindavan temple that says "Owned

by ISKCON Vrindavan", so why aren't the goshalla cows allowed to go

there until some other arrangement is made to reduce the number of cow

deaths attributed to over-crowding? Maybe there is a good reason for

leavng this land lying vacant and unutilized?

 

Useless Servant of the Vaishnavas,

PAD

(Text PAMHO:9008320) ------

 

------- End of Forwarded Message ------

(Text 54) -----------------

 

------- End of Forwarded Message ------

[Guest guest]

Canakya defines village as 100-500 families in Artha Sastra.

 

I was always wondering about the unit of measure for a village and went

about trying to calculate it on the basis of self-sufficiency. I consideed

all the bare minimal objects people would require to live a simple naturally

sustainable existence and the various services they would require

(brahminical, ksatriya, etc).

 

I came up with around 25 trades and 100 families. This was before I came

across Arthasastra. In Artha-sastra I found the reference to 100-500

families as the defining unit of village to my happiness more than surprise,

at that point, having already done the calculations.

 

With all respect, I am unhappy to see calls to "look" outside of Vedic

culture for solutions and guidance to defining and developing Vedic cultural

institutions like villages. Everything we require is there in Krishna and

the culture He created. Such conviction is defined as faith. We should

expend all efforts to look to Krishna and His representatives for guidance.

 

To combat a local problem we might learn from locals, but don't believe it

is prudent to go outside on fundamental principles. I suggest the Amish have

more to learn from Vedic authorities than otherwise, and it is up to us to

become Vedic, not Amish, authorities.

[Guest guest]

PAMHO AGTSP!

 

> With all respect, I am unhappy to see calls to "look" outside of Vedic

> culture for solutions and guidance to defining and developing Vedic

> cultural institutions like villages. Everything we require is there in

> Krishna and the culture He created. Such conviction is defined as faith.

> We should expend all efforts to look to Krishna and His representatives

> for guidance.

 

thank you for pointing this out.

 

> To combat a local problem we might learn from locals, but don't believe it

> is prudent to go outside on fundamental principles. I suggest the Amish

> have more to learn from Vedic authorities than otherwise, and it is up to

> us to become Vedic, not Amish, authorities.

 

is it possible that initially the amish got their ideas from vedic

scriptures but didn't want to say it? i don't know much about them.

 

Hare Krishna,

 

ys, bbd

[Guest guest]

> To combat a local problem we might learn from locals, but don't believe it

> is prudent to go outside on fundamental principles. I suggest the Amish

> have more to learn from Vedic authorities than otherwise, and it is up to

> us to become Vedic, not Amish, authorities.

 

[[[is it possible that initially the amish got their ideas from vedic

scriptures but didn't want to say it? i don't know much about them.]]]

 

 

Well, according to us, the original human culture on this planet is based on

the knowledge of Veda originally imparted by Lord Govinda to Lord Brahma.

I believe the Amish were originally from Germany. The case was made that

they are descendents of Aryan Ksatriyas chased out of India by Sri

Parashuram.

 

As far as ideas of living on the land and being self-sufficient within their

community, that is a universal idea practiced by most human beings since

time immemorial. In fact it is not that the Amish had any unique ideas.

 

They are now unique based on their idea NOT to embrace any new ideas. They

have become a novelty by the process of elimination. In other words, there

is nothing unique about their approach excepting the fact that they are the

only ones left taking the traditional approach in America.

 

The problem I especially have with them is that they are a cow slaughter

economy and culture. They eat beef and their economic model is based on cow

slaughter. So I am not at all inclined to study them. Prabhupada challenges

us "Why go to a cheater in the first place?"

 

Yes, you can learn languages and arts from anyone, but there are so many

things to learn from the Vedic culture, as well as, those in India who have

managed to preserve some of it, and thee is so little time to absorb it all.

 

So far no one has made a reasonable case why we should divert our efforts

away from Vedic culture to any other. The form of the objects not only plays

a functional role, but also a spiritual one, as well.

 

For example, the form of the Deity must be authorized. I suggest the form of

the drum must also be authorized (i.e. mridunga), as well as, the form of

every other object we produce like our dhotis and saris.

 

Why? Because they are fashioned in the image of the eternal objects in the

spiritual realm and that helps to remind one of Lord Krishna or Lord

Caitanya's leelas. There are many ways to form a pot, but we all know what a

Brajabsi red clay fired butter pot looks like. Does a black clay Navaho

Indian pot invoke the same sentiments as the butter pot when you see it?

Same with grinding mortars, rolling pins, lotas, you name it.

 

There is an inherent rasa contained within the form of objects that we will

lose if we don't preserve them. Now ISKCON devotees are introducing African

drums, trumpets, and other forms of musical instruments into the temple

kirtans, and this concerns me for all these reasons.

 

While I accept the Mahamantra can be chanted in any circumstance, I

experience that these new external forms of music do not enhance the kirtan

internally.

 

The only thing I can imagine why a person would choose the Amish to learn

from is their physical proximity. Certainly not for their culture or

philosophy. Just because the Amish are locally situated and we can therefore

save transportation costs associated with going to India to learn arts

apparently wasn't considered a hindrance for Srila Prabhupada, who spent

thousands of dollars to send devotees to India for training in such arts.

 

I therefore call on all devotees to represent and thus preserve Srila

Prabhupada's approach to our cultural and socio-economic development. I

guarantee you the Amish have not preserved their culture by going over to

learn how the American Indians do things.

 

The Amish were around from 1965-1977 and I don't recall Srila Prabhupada

sending even one devotee to learn anything from them. There is no precendent

for this that I am aware of. Why now?

 

We don't lack a culture, knowledge or examples. Certainly, no one joined

ISKCON to learn about Amish culture. Those with a fascination for it can

contemplate what inspires them to slaughter so many bulls, and then realize

its intrinsic worth. At most they serve to shame us for not sticking to our

cultural methods as fastiduously as they stick to theirs. That is what I

have learned from them without even approaching them and I sincerely

appreciate them for that.

 

I would characterize any attachment to any form of their culture as

"wrongful affection for material objects" or "maintaining material

attachments even after understanding so many instructions on this matter".

Cow killing culture has no place in a Krishna conscious village.

 

At the same time, they should be considered objects of the Vaishnava's mercy

and shown the true path to developing love of God. If we can engage them in

Krishna's service, then I am open to all varieties of ideas and strategies

that allows us to give our association without taking theirs for their

spiritual benefit.

 

With faith, discipline and desire we will be able to understand, value and

implement such a wonderful culture that will cause the Amish to cry in love

of God one day when they come to see our village.

 

At least we need to work towards that end. We need everyone's coopertion to

make this a reality. Hare Krishna.

 

Servant of all,

Prabhupadacarya Dasa

[Guest guest]

PAMHO AGTSP!

 

> There is an inherent rasa contained within the form of objects that we

> will lose if we don't preserve them. Now ISKCON devotees are introducing

> African drums, trumpets, and other forms of musical instruments into the

> temple kirtans, and this concerns me for all these reasons.

>

> While I accept the Mahamantra can be chanted in any circumstance, I

> experience that these new external forms of music do not enhance the

> kirtan internally.

 

-------from forwarded--------

 

"The harmonium may be played during bhajana if there

is someone who an play melodiously. But it is not for

kirtana and arati." (Letter 1976)

 

Prabhupada was present during a kirtana performed by

his disciples in the Brooklyn temple. For the

devotees, it was the perfection of their singing and

playing, to do it for Prabhupada's personal pleasure.

The mrdanga player had been practicing to learn

complicated beats, and he was demonstrating his rapid

and intricate abilities in the kirtana. But

Prabhupada stopped the music and said to the drummer,

a devotee named Dhira Krsna, that he should follow the

leader. Then he started the kirtana again, but it

happened again, and again Prabhupada stopped the

kirtana and asked the drummer to follow the leader.

On another occasion Prabhupada said, "The drum should

not be louder than the voice."

In 1966 in New York City, a boy came by with a record

of a famous Indian musician playing a sitar. As soon

as the music began, Srila Prabhupada started to smile.

The boy asked, "Do you like this music?" Srila

Prabhupada said, "This is sense gratification music."

The boy was hurt and said, "What do you mean? They

play this in the temples in India." So Prabhupada

insisted, "No, this is sense gratification music and

this musician is just a businessman." The boy then

replied, "Well, you used to be a businessman."

Prabhupada, laughed and said, "Because I went naked

then, I should go naked now?"

"Well, what if this musician wanted to become a

devotee?" asked the boy.

"Oh, that would be very nice," said Prabhupada, "if he

can come. But this is sense gratification music."

- From the Nectar by HH Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami

-------------------

Hare Krishna.

ys, bbd

[Guest guest]

> Dear Prabhus,

> PAMHO AGTSP

 

Dear Kripamoya prabhu. I hope all is well within your extensive preaching

field!

 

> I seem to remember a quote where Srila Prabhupada answered that "village

> means 15 families" - has anyone seen this too?

 

I looked in the vedabase, but could not find it. There was a reference to

one village with 36 families. It seems that there can be villages of all

sizes, but as you allude, you cannot have all the necesary trades and

services in such a small village, such villages being dependant on other

villages to one degree or another. I remember Srila Prabhupada mentioning

somewhere that trade may be done with villages within 3 days bullock cart

ride. I imagine that some things may come from even further afield, salt for

instance, or how about conches, camaras, bell metal? There have always been

trading caravans, so I imagine these items may have come from such caravans.

 

> What are the 25 trades required for self-sufficiency?

 

Yes Prabhupadacaryaji, could you list those for us? I have gone over the

required trades myself on some ocaisions, but it would be good to see what

you were thinking of.

 

Off the top of my head, to have your own clothes you need: A farmer to grow

the crop, and to harvest it. A family to process the crop, card it, spin it

etc. Another family to weave the spun yarn, and then a family to sew it all

up into clothes (which I think is required in colder climates). For woolen

products you need a sheep farmer/shepherd, who will shear the sheep, then

another spinner, then someone to knit or weave. For your shoes you need a

family who will skin the naturaly dead cows, that family will need not only

to tan the leather, but to deal with all the other parts of the animal, to

make glue, etc. From that we spin off to a shoe maker, a mridunga maker, a

glue maker etc. Once the wheat is harvested, it has to be milled. You can

have each family with a mill, but often there would be a village mill,

another livlihood. A person to make tools. A potter, A physician. A wheel

wright. A blacksmith.

 

I think there about about 17 different trades in the above. You can add,

flower grower, paper maker, musical instrument maker, thatcher, carpenter

this is off the top of my head, and I'm sure I must have missed out some

fundamentals.

>

> 100 families seems a lot for a 'village'. When I was growing up I lived

> in much smaller villages. But I suppose you could argue that the fuel to

> make the tractors work was not produced in the village.

 

Yes that is the point I think, at least in terms of creating our first

varnasrama village. We need to be able to produce as much of what we need as

we can.

>

> Has anyone looked into the Amish to see their notions of village size

> and when new villages are created?

 

As far as I remember, the Amish start a new community when their families

reach about 60 (this is really a hazy memory). But this is more for

ecclesiastical reasons. In their villages they dont have any church, rather

each house has its own chapel, and they take turns to host the sunday

service. If the congregation got too big, then each of their houses would

need to have a huge chapel. Apart from this, they also have issues with

being able to deal personaly with each other, which is difficult when there

are too many in the congregation. They do have a specific limiting number,

above which they will start a new congregation. Besides the Amish do rely on

the outside world for some of their requirements in terms of tools,

equipment etc. They also do not have any Ksatriya or medical facility, and

they rely on the outside world for those things too.

 

Apart from Canakyas teaching, the suggestion of villages of 100 people or

more is found in Greek town planning as far as I remember. In 'A Pattern

Language' Christopher Alexander quotes from the Greeks, they probably got it

from India originaly, but it does make logical sense. It is a fact that once

you go beyond 500 families, the sense of local identity starts to break

down, and the place becomes more of a city. In Cities people live very

closely packed. Interestingly we find that even people in the cities tend to

group together into identifiable neighborhoods (these communities probably

being the original villages that merged into the city). Many lamented in the

'60s in England when their neighborhoods were demolished and they were

herded into impersonal tower blocks effectively destroying their community.

Even though all the same people were living in a similar amount of square

feet, their community was destroyed. This book ('A Pattern Language') was

the result of the work of a team of planners who travelled the world

studying what it was in the built form of many cultures that created a

community that worked well in terms of human relationships. Its quite an eye

opener. Interestingly many of the ways in which built form lent itself to

intimate community can be found in traditional built forms of India.

 

Your servant

Samba das

[Guest guest]

Re: Prabhupadacarya prabhu and The Amish

 

> At most they serve to shame us for not

> sticking to our cultural methods as fastiduously as they stick to theirs.

> That is what I have learned from them without even approaching them and I

> sincerely appreciate them for that.

 

It seems you know quite a bit about them! Maybe some devotees have not had

the time to study them to the extent that you have, and so may find some

value in studying them, having heard something about their life.

 

Personaly speaking it is the aspects that you have considered to be positive

that I find positive about them, especialy that fact that they are so

fastidious and cautious to accept any new trend. I also sincerely appreciate

them for that. I also heard from book distributors that many of them are

impressed by our philosophy. Apparently some of them had great things to say

about our devotees after visiting the LA Temple recently.

 

The fact that they are economicaly dependent on cow slaughter, not unlike

the rest of society, certainly (imho) disqualifies them from being helpfull

in any but the most basic of ways...for instance, how to get hold of

difficult to find tools, or other things that devotees might need to get

started with simple living in the west. Srila Prabhupada understood that to

get westerners started with simple life might mean using a tractor for a

while to get things going. He cautioned us not to become dependant on such

things, but utility is the principle.

 

In general I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is the cultural heritage

of Vraja that we should be eager to introduce to the west. I am finding that

many devotees who have not spent considerable time in India are often

ignorant of the associations represented by the various cultural

paraphernalia that make up our spiritual heritage.

 

The Navaho pot you mention may be aestheticaly pleasing, but cannot convey

the mellows hinted at by seeing some paraphernalia intimately connected with

our Lord. But for those devotees who have not been exposed to such cultural

associations (other than a brief glance at some Krsna Art), there may not

appear to be much difference. You have been priveledged to live in India for

many years, and because of that these associations are obvious to you. Just

recently I have been at a loss to try to intimate to some devotees the

importance of these associations...why it is better to have motifs of -say-

peackocks or elephants in our village, as opposed to dolphins, whales or

geese!

 

There is one area in which I find a lack of information, and that is how to

live simply in very cold climates without somehow compromising on some

aspects of brahminical cleanliness. I guess the brahmanas in the Himalayas

must have figured it out, although I heard that the namboodripad brahmanas

who run the Badrinath Temple go home to Kerala in the 7 or more months of

the snowy season! (they also have very convenient hot springs up there right

next to the temple!).

 

To suggest to some people (women and children included) to use bathing and

toilet facilities not connected to your house when it is minus 16 outside

can be quite a challenge, cries of 'no way' are often heard when such

suggestions are made. Dhoties are also not the most practical garments in

such conditions. So it is a challenge, how to practicaly implement Vraja

culture in western conditions!

 

Your servant

Samba das