Call Off The Dogs!

[Guest guest]

In text 2219733 Janesvara dasa wrote:

 

> It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

> juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

Ruff Ruff, I am listening.

 

YS RK Mex

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Madhava Ghosh, such innunedo as you have not so subtly expressed above is

> unacceptable on this conference. Please refrain from dragging this discussion

> any lower than it has already gone.

 

I believe it only qualifies as innuendo if it is subtle , which it wasn't

intended

to be.

 

>

>

> I think you owe us and Virender an apology (as much as he may be an irritant

> in this whole polemic). You only reveal your own lower nature (and varna?)

by

> resorting to such vulgar responses.

>

> Srila dasa

 

Yes, lower than the lowest. I apologise for not wrapping my point in the

flowery

words of the Vedas.

 

The inability of a jivatma to distinguish between the aggregate of his upper 7

gates and the rearmost of his lower gates constitutes a greater dilema than

the

false conception that a society can thrive without competent leadership by

example.

[Guest guest]

At 17:41 -0800 4/8/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

 

>It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

>operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

>juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

While it is true that the (former?) organizer of this conference has not

been actively participating in this discussion, I don't think it's fair to

make such a comment. Living in a body which does not match one's own

perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable. The level of pain

someone must be experiencing before deciding to go ahead and transition is

intense, (especially as an ISKCON member!). That kind of decision is never

lightly taken and by the time someone has been approved by physicians,

psychologists etc. it is very serious. Let's not make fun or light of

someone's pain. If she had been born with a defective leg, I'm sure no one

here would have said "it's just the body, that's how Krsna meant for you to

be, it's your karma, live with it". Yet, if someone is born with

mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem to feel at

liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you, Janesvara).

 

Let's not discourage other devotees. It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a devotee

to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni dasa would be wonderful.

 

Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> While it is true that the (former?) organizer of this conference has not

> been actively participating in this discussion, I don't think it's fair to

> make such a comment. Living in a body which does not match one's own

> perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable. The level of pain

> someone must be experiencing before deciding to go ahead and transition is

> intense, (especially as an ISKCON member!). That kind of decision is

> never lightly taken and by the time someone has been approved by

> physicians, psychologists etc. it is very serious. Let's not make fun or

> light of someone's pain. If she had been born with a defective leg, I'm

> sure no one here would have said "it's just the body, that's how Krsna

> meant for you to be, it's your karma, live with it". Yet, if someone is

> born with mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem

> to feel at liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you,

> Janesvara).

>

> Let's not discourage other devotees. It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

> we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

> assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a

> devotee to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni dasa would be

> wonderful.

 

To change gender for a devotee, is not peanuts. I will think two times

before I go out an redicule such a move, because it is obvious that it

happened after a lot of forethought, otherwise how would someone in ISKCON

do such a thing? (It does not make one popular in ISKCON, that is for sure,

so I guess it was not exectly a olitical move).

 

To me it is hard to relate to that a devotee changes gender, that I have to

admit, but I will be careful to judge Prisni for this.

[Guest guest]

At 22:48 -0800 4/8/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

wrote:

 

>To change gender for a devotee, is not peanuts. I will think two times

>before I go out an redicule such a move, because it is obvious that it

>happened after a lot of forethought, otherwise how would someone in ISKCON

>do such a thing? (It does not make one popular in ISKCON, that is for sure,

>so I guess it was not exectly a political move).

 

Exactly, especially if we consider the direction of the change

(male->female, not female->male). No one changes to a position where she

will be treated as having half a brain, have less access to positions, have

to stand behind the men in some temples etc., simply on a whim.

 

>To me it is hard to relate to that a devotee changes gender, that I have to

>admit, but I will be careful to judge Prisni for this.

 

That is a great attitude. I don't think we can expect that everyone will

understand or approve of *any* of our actions, but as long as we're not

hurting other devotees, we can at least ask for their tolerance and not to

be judged.

 

We need to spend more time and energy encouraging each other in devotional

service. If we don't - who will?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> Yet, if someone is born with

> mismatched internal gender and external genitalia, devotees seem to feel at

liberty to make such comments (I'm not just talking about you, Janesvara).

>

 

 

 

And I thought figuring out my varna was a mind-blower. Seems we might think it

a good idea to get a moderator who isn't going through such a dramatic

transition.

[Guest guest]

>

> Artificially changing one's body from male to female because of some

contrived

> speculative Western psychology will not help this man in any way except

> perhaps the presumed desired pursuit of a different kind of sexual

> satisfaction. I am not against that nor his desire to stay in touch with his

> spiritual life, but I am not for calling it a sensible "cure".

 

 

On a more serious note from me, I am not sure what difference changing one's

physical gender makes, really. We all have our 'male' and 'female' sides.

After all we've all experienced both 'male' and 'female' countless billions of

times. (But what about earthworms, which they say are both male and female at

the same time?)

 

I have heard there are many sensitive men, and then there are many macho

females (like Xena, I suppose). It kind of seems to me like an overly drastic

approach regarding one's dealing with one's inner emotional life.

 

Seems like it might be preferable to hang tough for a few more decades and

then cash in your chips for some more attractive bodily designation, possibly

on a higher realm of existance. That might seem to be the easier, more natural

method.

 

In any event, I hope Prsna has good medical coverage and that it all works out

for the best. I've heard rumors from the bramancaris that women can't chant

Hare Krsna, too!

[Guest guest]

>

> In any event, I hope Prsna has good medical coverage and that it all works

out for the best. I've heard rumors from the bramancaris that women can't

chant Hare Krsna, too!

>

 

 

That was supposed to read 'woman CAN chant Hare Krsna, too'

 

In any event, we might consider it worthwhile getting settled with a new

moderator before the whole conference gets labled as being over the edge. It

would seem someone should try to arrange things with Raktambara, like that.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Madhava Ghosh, such innunedo as you have not so subtly expressed above

> > is unacceptable on this conference. Please refrain from dragging this

> > discussion any lower than it has already gone.

>

> I believe it only qualifies as innuendo if it is subtle , which it wasn't

> intended to be.

 

Come on Srila Prabhu, it was a pun. No one was specificaly mentioned. I

agree with Janesvara prabhu that one of the refreshing things about this

conference is the ability of the devotees on it to be humorous, and not on

some kind of pedestal.

 

Varnasrama is for all. An essential part is to put people in their place. If

someone with a very neophyte understanding, continues to innapropriately

admonish seniors, with misunderstood philosophy, it is up to the elders to

admonish him. There are no traditional precedents for doing this in

cyberspace, but in the flesh and blood world this would have to be done for

a persons own sake. He has continued to be defiant, and unhumble (?) despite

the fact that many of his seniors have berated him for it.

 

I would imagine that in vedic society he would have been more severely

reprimanded for such breach of etiquette (a good yell, or some other 'up

close and personal' directive).

 

We are brought up in western culture, so some of our innuendo (or whatever)

may be a little gross. What can we do! I think it is far worse to directly

criticise an older devotee, and brandish misunderstood philosophy, than to

indirectly poo poo a foolish new person, who cant take a hint. (is poo poo

allowed?)

 

In real life, an admonition of a persons foolish contribution, to a senior

discussion, could have brought about a lot of embarrasing glances, and could

be a good deal more humiliating. A few comments on com, could be perceived

as far less effective, and therefore maybe they need to be stronger?

 

It is very difficult to communicate fully on this medium, and maybe Virender

is feeling bad about the response he is getting. Personaly I was not at all

bothered about his attack on my contribution, but rather I was amused that

he should be so bold, without being possessed of more wisdom in his

assumptions. He really shows his lack of mature understanding up, and may be

somewhat embarrased to read his own texts ten years down the line.

 

As Janesvara mentioned (regarding himself) I was also possesed of similar

opinions regarding ISKCONS 'infallable' leadership, 15 or so years ago, but

slowly, slowly, the painful truth was revealed. It is a fact that we cannot

*unquestioningly* rely on others to decide on ultimate policy for this

movement, unless we are 100% convinced that those directives come from a

person who is completely transcendental to duality. There should be no doubt

whatsoever. Such people, such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja,

and our own Srila Prabhupada, are perceived as such by all serious and

sensitive men. Such people can be trusted. Others although they may be

possesed of goodwill, should be prepared to accept the criticism or

suggestions from other seniors. Until we actualy have an INDEPENDANT

brahminical class (and hence a proper varnasrama society), we can only

expect more of these problems

 

A humble person, especialy a person with only a few short years of

association under his belt, should be prepared to stand down when faced with

almost unanimous dissaproval of his conduct. Instead of blustering on

accusing other more senior people of misunderstanding.

 

In proper physical association, a person would understand that those that

admonish him have his best welfare at heart, but he needs to understand when

it is time to halt the argument, and listen and try to learn from the other

perspectives.

 

The trouble with cyberspace is that these personal dealings are absent, and

so stark text can often be misread.

 

I apologise to Virender if he feels we have been too harsh, but it would

also be good to hear a little humility from his side.

 

YS Samba das

[Guest guest]

On 08 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

> Janesvara wrote:

> >It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> >operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's some

> >juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

 

Hmmm -- eunuchs and transvestites are definitely an acceptable (and,

arguably, necessary) element of any functioning varNAzrama society,

but it's hard to understand the benefit of such an operation.

 

> Living in a body which does not match one's own

> perceived gender is not a joke. It is miserable.

 

Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature

of the material world. Why take matters into one's own hands?

At most, one will be in the mismatched body for 75 or 80 years.

It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a blip in

_real_ time. Just as depression shouldn't cause one to commit

suicide, neither should transgenderism cause one to undergo

bodily mutilation.

 

Of course, this all makes sense only if the transgendered person

really believes "dehino 'smin yathA dehe..." If one doesn't

accept it, then patience makes no sense and the Ginsu knife is

the way to go. If one does accept it, then that person might just

consider going transvestite instead of taking such a drastic step.

 

As a side note, I know many white-skinned and black-skinned American

devotees who have taken on many Indian cultural aspects, and

identify more with the East rather than the West. Nevertheless,

such transracial people leave their skin color and physical

features unaltered -- nobody repigments their skin brown or

changes his or her nose and cheekbones to look more Eastern.

I don't see how this is substantially different from the

problems faced by the transgendered.

 

> Let's not discourage other devotees.

 

Let's never discourage them from service or association with

devotees, but let's discourage them from doing such things. Let's

encourage them to show some patience. Devotees are supposed to set

an example for society -- yad yad acarati zreSThas -- so, let's hope

that that example is about the qualities of patience, honesty,

study, cleanliness, charity, etc.

 

> It's so hard to be a devotee anyway,

> we don't need to make it any harder. Some compassion would be nice and the

> assurance that we will welcome Prsni dasi into our association as a devotee

> to serve guru and Krsna, just like we did Prsni[garbha] dasa would be

wonderful.

 

Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

to change appropriately.

 

Regards,

 

Vijay S. Pai

[Guest guest]

> >Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

> >his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

> >such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

> >called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

> >"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

> >to change appropriately.

 

> Prisni was always his and her nickname.

 

Fine, as long as it's understood to be a reference to Prsnigarbha (the

name of an incarnation of Vishnu) and not just Prsni (the name of His

mother). If it is understood to be the latter, then it's an

unacceptable self-modification of a received name.

 

Yours,

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

>Incidentally, I don't think anybody has the right to change

>his or her devotee name anymore than one can give oneself

>such a name in the first place. Thus, this individual should be

>called "Prsnigarbha" regardless of his final gender. Of course,

>"dAsa" or "dAsI" is an improper noun, not a name, so it would have

>to change appropriately.

 

Prisni was always his and her nickname. Just like most of my friends call

me Madhu.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Look, if Prsna wants to be a girl, that's a personal decision. Still,

> comparing mechanical gender changes to dealing with clubfoot or a

> brahmancari taking to grhasta life could be a bit of a stretch.

>

 

The comparation was meant to be partial, not general. That

means, there are a lot of differences, but I hinted on that

what I find to be common in both these cases. That is, if

a brahmacari is very much disturbed, then don't force him

to stay as such. Better let him change his situation,

and "feel better". So, if a person is so much disturbed

with his present bodily gender, on the same way, don't

force him to stay in such disturbed condition. Let him

change it, if that would make him "feel better".

 

 

> If it helps you chant Hare Krsna, then who can argue it's anything but

> auspicious. Those who wish to 'judge' the value of an activity can do so

> by examining the results -- it's a scientific process, as they say.

 

If the cause of the great disturbance is being removed, then

I would expect that it helps to that person. Wether it is

a brahmacari who is greatly disturbed whenever he hears that

an another girl got married (not to him), or wether it is

somebody who is greatly disturbed with his type of the bodily

gender, the basic idea is the same. And the basic motivation,

as well as - to feel better.

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> One thing this "gender" change has done for Prsni is given him an

> active

> tongue. I've never seen so many posts from him. Does that come with

> being a

> woman? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

So anyone with an active tongue has the qualification of a woman? Let

me count my e mails and see who has the most (hmmm, could it be

Janesh?). Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

>

>

> Personally, while I am sure you have been going through a lot of heavy

>

> emotional and mental disturbances over this thing, I would recommend a

> little

> more humility and discretion.

 

Those are good recommendations for anyone, but let us not confuse or

equate humility with silence. I think Prsni is doing a fairly good job

of presenting her postion in a balanced way, using a slight qmount of

humor to make the situation a bit less awkward. As for discretion, I

am noting that she didn't bring up the topic at all, and seems to

simply be responding to questions. My guess is if the whole topic were

dropped, she would be fine with that.