New York death

[Guest guest]

> > How vengeful of the Arab hijackers to kill so many innocent people.

>

> It may be a kind of global reaction for the American terror arround the

> world. What happened yesterday was more or less exactly the same that NATO

> has done in Yugoslavia -- bombing the Serbian TV, thus killing many

> civilians, bombing hospitals, camps of refugies etc. But I wander whether

> there can be such a thing as global reaction, i.e. a nation that has to

> suffer for the sins of its leaders.

 

Holy Simplicity, what more can we add to the mentioned above.

ys, Manohari dasa.

[Guest guest]

> What happened yesterday was more or less exactly the same that NATO

> has done in Yugoslavia

 

??????????????????????/ There is absolutely no comparison.

 

>But I wander whether

> there can be such a thing as global reaction, i.e. a nation that has to

> suffer for the sins of its leaders

 

I though Prabhupada said it was the other way around, i.e. leaders suffer

for the actions of its people.

 

Madhu

[Guest guest]

> >But I wander whether

> >there can be such a thing as global reaction, i.e. a nation that has to

> >suffer for the sins of its leaders

>

> I though Prabhupada said it was the other way around, i.e. leaders suffer

> for the actions of its people.

 

It goes both ways. The first option is obvious:

 

 

“The nyaya-sastra confirms, bhrtyaparadhe svamino dandah: ‘If a servant

makes an offense, the master is punishable.’”

 

(The Second Chance, Chapter 22)

 

 

However, there is also evidence to substantiate the second option. Let us

have a look at the Caitanya Caritamrta, Antya-lila, and the third chapter:

 

 

mahantera apamana ye desa-grame haya

eka janara dose saba desa upajaya

 

"Wherever an advanced devotee is insulted, for one man’s fault the

entire town or place is afflicted."

 

Now, the surroundings of this verse are very interesting.

 

Sri Nityananda Prabhu along with his associates moved throughout the land of

Bengal, and arrived at the place of a person called Ramacandra Khan.

However, as the crowd began to gather at the Durga-mantapa in the outer

regions of his residence, he sent a servant to send away the crowd of

Vaisnavas, not bothering to even meet Sri Nityananda Prabhu in person. Now,

Nitai became outraged, and laughing loudly, spoke as follows:

 

“Ramacandra Khan has spoken rightly. This place is unfit for Me. It is fit

for cow-killing meat-eaters.” Having said this, he stood up and left in an

angry mood. To chastise Ramacandra Khan, He did not even stay in that

village. Ramacandra Khan then ordered to dig up the ground from where the

Vaisnavas had been, in order to purify the place.

 

Not much later, a muslim minister discovered the Khan's being guilty for a

long-term tax fraud, and enraged, arrived to this very same Durga Mandapa.

He made his residence there, and killed a cow and ate its flesh on the very

same spot. Then he arrested Ramacandra Khan, along with his wife and sons,

and then continuously plundered the house and village for three days.

 

On the fourth day, the minister left with his associates, having destroyed

everything. For many days the village remained deserted.

 

Having related this history, Sri Krishnadasa Kaviraja wrote the verse,

 

mahantera apamana ye desa-grame haya

eka janara dose saba desa upajaya

 

"Wherever an advanced devotee is insulted, for one man’s fault the

entire town or place is afflicted."

 

(Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Antya-lila, 3.164)

 

 

It is noteworthy to observe that the reaction for the aparadha struck not

only Ramacandra Khan, but everyone related with him, and moreover, that the

reaction was a complete backslash in all ways, both material and spiritual.

Severe aparadha not only uproots and destroys the creeper of devotion, but

additionally destroys all of one's pious merits, leaving only a vast stock

of sinful reactions to be suffered.

 

To enter into an in-depth analysis on the “why” of the USA incident is way

beyond the scope of this letter. It is only written to demonstrate the

principle of one individual's sins' and offences' contaminating others who

maintain the offender's association.

 

 

Vaishnavadasanudas,

Atul Krishna das

[Guest guest]

>

> > What happened yesterday was more or less exactly the same that NATO

> > has done in Yugoslavia

>

> ??????????????????????/ There is absolutely no comparison.

 

What do you mean there is no comparison? Over 1000 civilian victims just to

show one's power. Bombing the Serbian TV saying that it was a "legitimate

millitary object". Bombing hospitals, trains, refugy camps, saying it was

done by mistake?! Creating a terrorist army (the KLA, which emptied out

Kosovo of Serbs and is now terrorising Macedonia) just to bring one man down

(Miloshevich). Etc.

 

And shall we mention Viatnam, Panama, inocent children duying of

insufficient nutrition due to the sanctions on Iraq...

 

Ah yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

[Guest guest]

> What do you mean there is no comparison? Over 1000 civilian victims just

> to show one's power.

 

The violent death of a non combatant is a terribly sad event no matter who

is the perpetrator and what excuses are given. Two wrongs don't make a right

(if the bombing of Yugoslavia is considered a wrong). Ironically, the

bombing was done in defence of the Muslims.

 

We feel sad because thousands of people, most of whom probably had not

received the Holy Name, died brutally, in fear and pain. We feel the utter

sorrow of their relatives, who have to live for the rest of their lives with

this loss. I saw on BBc TV a person sobbing about 700 people of his software

company who were missing, and now he had to carry on the business, otherwise

how would the 700 families be provided for. Just an example.

 

Srila Prabhupada has saved us with his compassion. At this time, the shocked

Americans must be in a much more receptive state for His message, and I hope

the many devotees in New York and nearby places spend some of their time to

comfort the sufferers, and gently teach them how to get hope and happiness

through Lord Caitanya and the Holy Names. Surely the thousands of rescuers,

many of them unpaid volunteers, slogging in the cold rain would very much

appreciate receiving hot prasadam, and understand that the Hare Krsnas are

not cold hearted freaks but servants of the merciful Supreme Lord.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Sep 2001, at 17:11, Vijaya-venugopala (das) JPS (Persian Gulf wrote:

 

> We feel sad because thousands of people, most of whom probably had not

> received the Holy Name, died brutally, in fear and pain. We feel the utter

> sorrow of their relatives, who have to live for the rest of their lives with

> this loss. I saw on BBc TV a person sobbing about 700 people of his software

> company who were missing, and now he had to carry on the business, otherwise

> how would the 700 families be provided for. Just an example.

>

 

Just a few points of information. There are some involved in this

disaster who may have heard the Holy Name. I saw a list of 300 people

who are still alive from that same company which 700 were lost. A very

significant number of Indian Hindu names in the survivors, dozens. So

we can anticipate that the 700 who perished also had many dozens of

Indian Hindus.

There is an Indian embassy site listing severely injured Indian survivors

in NYC hospitals:

http://www.indiacgny.org/listhospital.html

 

So it would seem that perhaps there were members of our own

Indian congregation who were injured or died in this tragedy. This

brings it very much into our own temples. I would also expect that

there are members of our congregations who have friends and

relatives who were victims in this tragedy.

Your servant,

Ramiya dasa

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > What happened yesterday was more or less exactly the same that NATO

> > > has done in Yugoslavia

> >

> > ??????????????????????/ There is absolutely no comparison.

>

> What do you mean there is no comparison? Over 1000 civilian victims just

> to show one's power. Bombing the Serbian TV saying that it was a

> "legitimate millitary object". Bombing hospitals, trains, refugy camps,

> saying it was done by mistake?! Creating a terrorist army (the KLA, which

> emptied out Kosovo of Serbs and is now terrorising Macedonia) just to

> bring one man down (Miloshevich). Etc.

>

> And shall we mention Viatnam, Panama, inocent children duying of

> insufficient nutrition due to the sanctions on Iraq...

>

> Ah yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

 

This sounds much like the old European nationalism. The national concept was

repeatedly proven as THE malign disease, old more than 150 years, causing

the Europe suffering. Then other people from the world have used to come to

help to cure this cancer time by time. Furtunatelly enough, main part of

Europe get enlighten and try to get free from this national concepts now.

Some other parts are still involved, due to the people who nourish this

national ideas.

>From the spiritual point of view classifying people regarding their flesh is

pure materialism, isn't it?

ys, Manohari dasa.

[Guest guest]

> At 07:54 AM 9/15/01 +0200, Atmarama (das) BVS (Skopje - MAC) wrote:

>

> >What do you mean there is no comparison?

>

> Just realized this was the "Krsna Katha" conference and thus inappropriate

> for this discussion. I'd be glad to continue it elsewhere and to show you

> why I think there is a huge difference between the two situations. You can

> pick the conference, or we can bring it to "Topical Discussions"

 

Yes, it also came to my mind that the conference is inappropriate. But I

would not continue the discussion. There may be differences in the two

instances of violence, in fact there are, but in both cases innocent,

unarmed civilians were murdered, and by all standards (spiritual and

material) this is innapropriate and has to bring reactions. Besides, there

is a gulf of difference between what goes on on the spot and what is being

reported by CNN and other news services, therefore I suspect that you might

have a wrong impression about Kosovo or any other place that the Americans

were involved in. That's from my personall experience.

 

Any way, it is a usseless discussion, unless we can change something about

it. And I am more and more pessimistic that we (or anyone else) can. Better

we immerge ourselves in the Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Holy Name.

 

ys Atmarama das

[Guest guest]

Well, although the topic is definitely worth discussing, it is not for Krsna

Katha conference. I am very sorry that I interfere so late, it just happened

that I was moving from one flat to another and didn't have time to pay the

necessary attention to my duties as the organiser of the Katha conference.

 

Dear devotees, please be careful. Other rs want KRSNA Katha, nothing

else.

 

Your servant

Ganga dd, the organiser.