gurukulas - slaughter houses

[Guest guest]

> > > Trayimaya wrote:

> > >

> > > > I agree with Janaka prabhu. This child-abuse is the biggest stain on

> > > > the white cloth of ISKCON. It is THE mother of all our problems.

> >

> > Jahnu Prabu wrote:

> >

> > > Wrong! THE mother of all our problems is that we didn't

> > > follow

> > > the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave us. The child-abuse is merely

> > > an effect of that.

> >

> > Please Prabhu, give the proper chance to all other sincere

> > devotees to stress their opinion freely concerning this case.

 

Jahnu Prabhu wrote:

 

> So why do you complain when I freely stress my opinion, o wise

> one?

 

You have the right to your own opinion like everybody else, but not in the

way to impose it on others as the apsolute truth.Also you dont have the

right to bully everybody around just because they brought up the subject of

GBC responsibility for the gurukula case.

 

Y.s. Janaka das

[Guest guest]

> Where are the

> parents of all the abused kids now? Why don't they do something

> now?

 

Damned they because their children were abused and they were

doing nothing about then. Damned they because they are not

doing "something" now, after their children had been bused

in ISCKON.

 

And damned will they be if they go doing "something" now.

 

What the parents of "all abused kids" should have been doing

now (besides "following Prabhupada's instructions, of course),

it seems to be up to Jahnu to acknowledge and senction it.

 

 

 

> In fact I am getting fed up with people

> like you who do nothing but whine and wail and complain about how ISKCON

> is bad. What do _you _ do for the kids except whine on COM? Don't you have

> something useful to do.. like some devotional service?

 

Low class ad hominy attacks.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> However, there are still millions and millions of people who

> have never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression

> "brahminical culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that,

> and still they don't rape their children.

 

But they do. Here in Sweden where I live I have heard that 1 out

of 7 boys and 1 out of 4 girls are being sexually molested by

their parents or relatives or teachers. These are the official

statistics. Imagine all the unreported cases.

 

> How to explain to

> them these reasons

> for Krsna's children having been obnoxiously abused by Hare

> Krsna teachers in the spiritual society ISCKON?

> "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

 

So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one? What do _you_ do about

the problems of child-abuse in ISKCON except whining about it on

COM? Do you think that helps the children?

[Guest guest]

> I would make this person suffer very badly.

Sounds easy. But if this person is in power he might turn it right back

into the face of you and your family and makes things even worse for you.

There is a difference between being mister old and important devotee and

miss floorsweeper just walked in the door a few years ago.

Thats why leaders are supposed to protect those they rule over and who

serve them in good faith. That includes parents too ofcourse, they are also

supposed to protect their children. But if a thief breaks in and murder the

child would you blame the parents? They will blame themselves eternally dont

worry.

[Guest guest]

Janaka wrote:

 

> Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

did I do to them?

[Guest guest]

Hey guys, I think you both need to take a time out. I don't think

either of you are far enough apart in your ideas that you need to get

so emotional and all name calling about it. Chill out for a little

while, I think we all agree we need to deal with the abuse.

 

Please also notice I have deleted Prabhupada Said as a reciepient as per

their request.

 

"COM: Jahnu (das) (Almviks Gard - S)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2735725 from COM]

>

> Janaka wrote:

>

> > Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> > is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

> your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

> parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

> did I do to them?

[Guest guest]

>

> So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one? What do _you_ do about the

> problems of child-abuse in ISKCON except whining about it on COM? Do you

> think that helps the children?

 

Well, I go whining about it on COM, not to be ever forgotten.

I hope that is sufficient from me at the moment, and OK with

you, Jahnu. If not, can't help you. Sorry.

 

..

[Guest guest]

> > "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

>

> So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one?

 

Since you are sending me e-mail calling me stupid in private,

and in public you are addressing me as "wise one", I have my

sincere doubts in your honest interest to hear my explanation.

So, don't bother.

 

 

However, if you are already demonstrating such a high degree

of philosophical understanding regarding the abuse of children,

i.e. that it is all due to our not following properly Prabhupada's

instructions, so you laconically conclude: "The child-abuse is

merely an effect of that", then...

 

Then please keep consistent and make the next conclusion how

the reaction of some abused children and parents (for example

those who are suing ISCKON now) is -- merely an effect of a mare

effect of our not properly following Prabhupada's instructions

(to protect cows, apparently). Then please do not lunch your

furious and uncontrolled attacks on anybody here. Keep your

tranquility, even more firmly than in the case of understanding/

explaining the child abuse itself. After all, what ISCKON (that's

we, Jahnu), compared to the abused children, might loose? Some

millions of some US dollars, only. So, don't worry, be happy.

It's all merely still just some mare effect's echo... Not even

worthy of your attention, what to speak of trying to kill people

through these COM messages of yours.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > However, there are still millions and millions of people who

> > have never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression

> > "brahminical culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that,

> > and still they don't rape their children.

>

> But they do.

 

There are still millions and millions who don't.

Don't twist my clear point.

 

The point is that it is quite possible to not became a child

molester, even without knowing just any of Srila Prabhupada's

instructions, even without not being on the platform of a brahminical

culture. Not all animals, for example, are know for raping their

offspring, if I am not wrong. Please correct me, Jahnu, you seem to

be well researched and in possession of fitting statistics. How

about male elks in Sweden? How stands their ratio? Better or worse?

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

Per their request, I have deleted Prabhupada Said as a reciepient.

 

>

> >

> > Lack of following Srila Prabhupada's instructions on cow protection is the

> > mother of all our problems.

 

> > Gurukula abuse is a failure of maintaining brahminical standards, as will

> > happen if cow protection is not there.

>

> Cool comment. Nothing else but the unfulfillment of

> the aim of life (due to lack of cow protection) is the explanation

> for sexual abuse of children.

 

That is neither what I said nor what I meant so I won't address your comment.

 

> Either "we" make it back to

> Godhead, or "our" children will be raped by "us", Krsna's devotees

> who missed to follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction on cow

> protection.

 

Sorry Mahaniddhi, nothing is quite that simple. Cow protection is the basis

of

VAD. Without VAD, we are operating in an inferior social order, which will

have all kinds of problems, one of which is, as history has shown us, the

abuse of children.

 

>

>

> However, there are still millions and millions of people who have

> never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression "brahminical

> culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that, and still they

> don't rape their children. How to explain to them these reasons

> for Krsna's children having been obnoxiously abused by Hare Krsna

> teachers in the spiritual society ISCKON?

> "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

>

> - mnd

 

First, not all devotees abused children, not all teachers abused children.

Some teachers abused children, just like happens in regular society. Maybe

worse, because in regular society, the system at least acknowledges that

imperfection exists and tries to deal with it.

 

In ISKCON, a very simplistic view of the world, us the devotees the good

guys, and them the karmis the bad guys led to a situation where the delusions

of grandeur amongst the leaders wouldn't let them see that we are just ordinary

like everybody else. thus, with an unrealistic view of the world, the

cheaters had freer rein to cheat.

[Guest guest]

> Why don't they do something

> now? Nothing it seems since these kids need crazy people like

> Pratyatosa and Puranjana to speak their case.

 

See it as an indicatin of where "our children" prefer to put

their trust to, after getting the chance to brake from. Remember,

"we" used to be proud about "our next generation of leaders" that

were being produced in gurukulas.

 

The difference now is that they have become grown up. They

used to be children, ISCKON children. Look for the causes,

you presented yourself to be expert in it.

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > Cool comment. Nothing else but the unfulfillment of

> > the aim of life (due to lack of cow protection) is the explanation for

> > sexual abuse of children.

>

> That is neither what I said nor what I meant so I won't address your

> comment.

 

I know you didn't say, however such oversimplified conclusions

do have their impact even if you yourself might not have it.

Something like one of those "sutras" - "It's all the karma".

Perhaps.

 

I appreciated Sriram prabhu's presentation. He took the time and

energy upon himself to look closer to the problem, helping everybody

to try to think and understand what and where actually it went wrong.

Now, he like you could also make his analysis so laconic like you

did: "We failed to take care of cows". But he didn't, on contrary he

even pointed in his letter on effects of such an approach. Then

seeing, right after his letter, again exactly some of these

oversimplifications (Jahnu's and yours), I couldn't help but not

appreciate it, out of different reasons. Sorry.

 

 

 

>

> Sorry Mahaniddhi, nothing is quite that simple. Cow protection is the

> basis of VAD. Without VAD, we are operating in an inferior social order,

> which will have all kinds of problems, one of which is, as history has

> shown us, the abuse of children.

 

I do agree with you, the difference is only that I, in this moment,

recognize the possibility of operating even on that an inferior social

order and yet trying to prevent the abuse of children. Establishment

of VAD as the remedy to child abuse is, as far as I am concerned,

a cake in the sky. A promised ice-cream to a frustrated child.

 

Now, regardless of any kind of social order, you got no guaranty

that some individuals wouldn't go nuts and do horrible acts of

abusing/killing children. You will still have some Ashvatamas eve

if you would be Yudhistira, even in the presence of Krsna Himself.

 

 

>

> First, not all devotees abused children, not all teachers abused

> children. Some teachers abused children, just like happens in regular

> society. Maybe worse, because in regular society, the system at least

> acknowledges that imperfection exists and tries to deal with it.

>

 

The social system is the reflection of general community's

consciousness. Now, having advertised ourselves to the world as

the spiritual society, the international society for Krsna

consciousness, we seem only to be proving to be almost up to

"normal" society. The society that is being bashed on the morning

and evening classes millions of times as a demoniac.

 

But I do accept your message that on the highest level of social

arrangement, in VAD system, it would be better. Thanks for the

information.

 

 

 

> In ISKCON, a very simplistic view of the world, us the devotees the good

> guys, and them the karmis the bad guys led to a situation where the

> delusions of grandeur amongst the leaders wouldn't let them see that we

> are just ordinary like everybody else. thus, with an unrealistic view of

> the world, the cheaters had freer rein to cheat.

 

 

That is exactly my point, Madhava Gosh prabhu. With such an

over simplistic "analyses" of the cause of child abuse: "The

lack of cow protection", you are leaving out there an entire

uncovered field of activities, where the same cheaters will

still have their freer reins to cheat. Though you might neither

say nor mean it so.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Janaka wrote:

>

> > Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> > is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Jahnu Prabhu wrote:

 

> Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

> your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

> parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

> did I do to them?

 

For no reason, you are calling them " ZOMBIES " and " STUPID " , which is

very offencive.I dont mind when you call me names, but I do mind when you do

that to other innocent vaisnavas.

 

Y.s. Janaka das

[Guest guest]

> > > "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

> >

> > So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one?

>

> Since you are sending me e-mail calling me stupid in private,

> and in public you are addressing me as "wise one", I have my

> sincere doubts in your honest interest to hear my explanation.

> So, don't bother.

 

ok. I won't

[Guest guest]

If somebody is wondering why I am adding the public conference

to it:

 

 

 

I will always make it public whenever an abuser is on his march.

Putting aside the vulgarity (that's Jahnu's personal quality),

and not considering for a moment his mindless attempts to insult

me personally (he couldn't digg out no other dirt in my life, but

my birth), I will nevertheless point out publicly the abuser.

 

 

Jahnu's being a chauvinist here, he is insulting millions of

people who by birth happen to be from "Yugo-land". He is insulting

the millions of people who were the victims of the war atrocities

and who didn't become killers and rapists. For Jahnu a person born

in "Yugo-land" is by default an idiot, a murderer and a rapist.

Jahnu is thus insulting my parents, my brothers, all my family

members... and everybody else who by birth happen to be form

"Yugo-land" and is not rubber-stamped by Jahnu as a "bona fide"

ISCKON-iate.

I will never tolerate these kind of abuses, especially if they

come from pretenders that hide behind Srila Prabhupada's image,

who act in Prabhupada's name as so-called defenders of him and

ISCKON. But simply perversiveness and sect mentality poorly

disguised.

 

 

I can't do much about at the moment but simply make it

public; keeping abusers and abuses in private is what gave to

child abusers the dark and quiet room to act in, to go abusing

one after another...

Besides, Jahnu's obvious self-confidence in his mad attacks on

anybody that his sick mind directs him on, discloses to me that

he feels quite secure. He's not afraid of any sanction from the

side of those who are his masters, who supply him with his paycheck/

maintenance, who keep him engaged in such "service" to ISCKON.

He knows. So, in the absence of any system of justice (chauvinistic

attacks against personal integrity of people are against law and

are punishable, as it is a form of abuse), I can only make it

public.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Why the fuck do you write me then? Where would you be without

> ISKCON, huh? Over there in Yugo-land killing and raping like all

> the other idiots over there.

 

 

YOU, dear sir, are way out of line here.

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why Mahaniddhi sends my private letters to him

in a public conference.

[Guest guest]

> I can't do much about at the moment but simply make it

> public; keeping abusers and abuses in private is what gave to

> child abusers the dark and quiet room to act in, to go abusing

> one after another...

> Besides, Jahnu's obvious self-confidence in his mad attacks on

> anybody that his sick mind directs him on, discloses to me that

> he feels quite secure. He's not afraid of any sanction from the

> side of those who are his masters, who supply him with his

> paycheck/ maintenance, who keep him engaged in such "service"

> to ISCKON.

 

What are you speaking of? What pay-check are you speaking of? I

don't receive any paychecks from ISKCON. For the last two months

I have been working for the BBT and is NOT being maintained. but

receive a tiny salery. I am being maintained by the Danish state

and earn extra by going out and distributing prasadam. You on the

other hand have been maintained by the BBT for the last 18 years

while at the same time receiving money from the Swedish

government as a refugee from Yugoslavia. Who are you to speak? I

have never, ever been maintained by the temple except for my

first 5 years as a brahmacari when I gave all my social welfare

to the temple. And don't give me this hype that I condemn all

Yogoslavians. That was a private statement which I blurted out

in the heat of the moment because I felt deeply offended by you,

and because I felt you were such a dishonest hypocrite. Some of

my best friends are yogoslavians like Janakarsi and Jaggy who are

also your friends.

[Guest guest]

> I don't understand why Mahaniddhi sends my private letters to him

> in a public conference.

 

 

 

 

Acha! So sorry. Seems like lots of private email ends up on public forums.

 

What I try to do (not too successfully, I might add) is expect any private

correspondence to eventually end up in public; so discretion is

the............

[Guest guest]

> Why the ,,,,..do you write me then? Where would you be without

> ISKCON, huh? Over there in Yugo-land killing and raping like all

> the other idiots over there.

 

Dear Jahnu, "chant Hare Krishna and be Happy"

 

Good luck

 

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

>

> What are you speaking of? What pay-check are you speaking of? I

> don't receive any paychecks from ISKCON.

 

Your name, and the amount of the money to be paid out next to

it, used also to be on the VT's list of payments. This at least

a accounter/book-keeper got to know, or not?

The particular service that you were then assigned to by Harikesa,

and that you were paid for, was to be a "watchdog" for ISCKON. You

were (and you did) to be surfing around through the cyberspace and

tracing down everybody and anybody that you could consider to be a

(potential) enemy to ISCKON, those who speak bad about ISCKON and

the GBC and the authorities... Than you would bring the collected

"material" to the higher authorities.

 

However, I could expect that you might be doing now that

service even without being paid. Quite possible.

 

 

> I have been working for the BBT and is NOT being maintained. but

> receive a tiny salery. I am being maintained by the Danish state

> and earn extra by going out and distributing prasadam.

 

The maintenance in the BBT is according to how much you work

for it. We all know it, don't we? You work a full time, you get

a full time maintenance. You work a tiny time, you get "a tiny

salary". More simple than that can't be.

 

 

> You on the other

> hand have been maintained by the BBT for the last 18 years while at the

> same time receiving money from the Swedish

> government as a refugee from Yugoslavia.

 

False. I even don't have a refugee status nor I ever had it,

because I've never been a refugee from Yugoslavia, neither

actually nor officially. But, again, what do you know.

Somebody did tell you a lie, and you keep telling it to

others.

I wasn't in the BBT "last 18 years", but 12.

It is hilarious to say that someone is "in the same time" (for

18 years!) receiving a money as a refugee from Yu. But it

is Jahnu who is telling "facts" about another person to the

world, so it all makes sense.

 

 

But yes, you can keep receiving the social money from the

government all the time, you are the one declaring yourself

to be a full time ISCKON member, aren't you? Be proud of it.

 

 

 

> That was a private statement which I blurted out

> in the heat of the moment because I felt deeply offended by you,

> and because I felt you were such a dishonest hypocrite.

 

Yes, when one abuses, he always makes for himself a good

justification for doing it. I really belive you. That doesn't

mean, however, that you may go on as freely as you like. I feel

sorry, but in the same time I don't compromise on these. Notice

that at the moment you are on the march against several persons

here. And there was no kind of "plot" aginst you. Don't get paranoic,

so you will spare people from your abuse. It's up to state of your

conciousness.

 

If you have had the moments that you felt deeply offended by

me and you "felt I were such a dishonest hypocrite", I would

expect that to be pointed out, not to go chauvinistic abuses

(you just confirmed your chauvinistic emotions again: "Why do

you think I live out in nowhere up in Sweden - even though I'm

Danish and hate the puffed up Swedes").

 

And notice, you got in the same time several persons here lining

down with your extremely abusive and insulting words.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> I don't understand why Mahaniddhi sends my private letters to him in a

> public conference.

 

You mean, your private abuses.

 

I explained already. At the moment I see no other way to try to

stop you, but make it public. I know that you are doing it to

other devotees also. You think you got a right for a privacy when

sending vulgar and abusive messages to other people? Well, you

are wrong. The abuses, at one point always go public, don't

be in such illusion. So better to make it sooner than later.

 

 

 

> Mahanidhi is

> such a coward that he has to post what I say to him privately

 

Yes.

 

Personally, I will have it as my policy to make it publicly

known *any* abusive or threatening "private letter" that I

might be receiving from anybody. I will not be swallowing

it "privately", but will share with everybody. I don't want

to get a cancer in my stomach. Thanks. I prefer to be a coward.

 

Now expect that some your "private letters" might go public.

Now think twice before you send anything of a kind to someone.

Think like it is the public who is witnessing what you do to

others in "private" (since Krsna as a witness doesn't help nor

mean to you just anything, apparently).

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> Is that the point?? Excuse me, what's the point of that? What are you

> trying to say? That we shouldn't follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions

> because then we become child-abusers, is that what

> you are saying?

 

What else I could be "trying to say", Jahnu? More crazy than that

can't be, so give it the first place on your scale of possibilities.

 

 

Can it be more clear to say that even millions of people who

have never heard for Prabhupada's name and his instructions,

still are quite capable of not sinking to the level of raping

the "offspring"? Elks are, for example, capable.

 

Prabhupada often stated that the temples are not for crazy and

mentally disoriented people. That's where it begins "to follow

Prabhupada's instructions". From some sane platform. Let's be

more keen on how to detect this perverseness and craziness, and

then eliminate it from the rest of the society. Not some vague

"we failed to follow Prabhupada's instructions, therefore child

abuses". Yes, you are actually right, I agree. The instruction

to not let mad and perversive people operate in the society is

that one instruction that wasn't properly followed, and still is

not properly followed. We can agree on something, after all,

can't we?

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Prabhupada often stated that the temples are not for crazy and

> mentally disoriented people. That's where it begins "to follow

> Prabhupada's instructions". From some sane platform. Let's be

> more keen on how to detect this perverseness and craziness, and

> then eliminate it from the rest of the society.

 

I agree completely. We should be more keen to eliminate the

child-abuse.

 

> Not some vague

> "we failed to follow Prabhupada's instructions, therefore child

> abuses". Yes, you are actually right, I agree. The instruction

> to not let mad and perversive people operate in the society is

> that one instruction that wasn't properly followed, and still

> is

> not properly followed. We can agree on something, after all,

> can't we?

 

Yes, we can.

 

Ys, Jahnu das

[Guest guest]

> I apologize deeply. I regret that I said it.

 

Thank you.

 

 

- mnd