Guest guest Posted December 16, 1998 Report Share Posted December 16, 1998 COM: Ajamila (das) ACBSP (Goloka Books - GB) wrote: > [Text 1938803 from COM] > > >Nowadays, it is quite absurd that the sanyassis are far richer > >than the average grhasthas in the movement. I think today, if > >you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a sanyassi, and a > >guru, and be very charismatic. > > I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand the > devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order. > > ys ada Do you object to the factual observation or to the characterisation of that observation as being an absurdity? While it is changing, it was certainly true at New Vrindaban for 2 decades that the swamis were the wealthiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 1998 Report Share Posted December 16, 1998 Ajamila prabhu wrote: > >Nowadays, it is quite absurd that the sanyassis are far richer > >than the average grhasthas in the movement. I think today, if > >you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a sanyassi, and a > >guru, and be very charismatic. > > I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand the > devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order. Why is it out of order? Though there are certainly some renounced sannyasis (like brahmacaris and grhastas as well) in ISKCON, the sannyas asrama (and guru post, as well) in ISKCON *is* the post of the social position of the highest rank, the position of social power and control. Includes the best facilities for the economical development also (that not all utilize, of course). ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 1998 Report Share Posted December 16, 1998 No doubt some sannyasis may have (or may still do, I have no first hand knowledge) utilised donations given to them, for their own sense gratification. But I do not think it is correct to say that guru daksina should be automatically surrendered by the sannyasi to some temple. Guru daksina is a voluntary donation given by someone to his/her guru. If he/she wanted the money to go to the temple, he would have done that himself in the first place. How can someone else infringe on the desires of the donor to give to his guru, by making a rule that the guru should give it to the temple? I, for one, would strongly object if someone tried to divert my donations by such rules. The proper method is to make sure, by rules and checks (if these do not already exist) that the sannyasis use the donations only for preaching, including travelling, and minimal maintenance. Maybe even prescribe the style of residences. Our yatra, being 100% congregation, consists of many regular donors. We use everything for preaching, and send donations to temples/ temple resident devotees, who inspire us to do so by their devotional service. We have also come across and heard of potential donors who live near Iskcon temples but do not want to donate because they do not find the devotees there inspiring - some are supercilious to non-residents, some are just spaced out. There are also very rich Iskcon temples in India, which have successfully cultivated the congregation,and also earn a lot of money through sale counters at the temples. At least one of them has built five star facilities for the brahmacaris (like independent rooms with attached bath-rooms, and luxurious offices for each brahmacari, unlimited vehicles, sumptuous prasadam etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 >>> Nowadays, it is quite absurd that the sanyassis are far >>> richer than the average grhasthas in the movement. I think >>> today, if you want to become rich in Iskcon, become a >>> sanyassi, and a guru, and be very charismatic. >> I think the organizer of this conference should reprimand >> the devotee who posted this comment, it is out of order. >Why is it out of order? Its just that all the ISKCON sannyasis I know do utilize their donations for their ISKCON preaching projects. I feel they are trustworthy. We do have many, many honest sannyasis in our Society and to tar them all with the mistakes of the past fallen is clearly wrong. Besides that, temple leaders are also prone to mispending money, more so than sannyasis. Why single out the sannyasis who on the whole are trustworthy? ys ada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 > Do you object to the factual observation or to the > characterisation of that observation as being an absurdity? > While it is changing, it was certainly true at New Vrindaban > for 2 decades that the swamis were the wealthiest. All the ISKCON sannyasis I know do utilize their donations for their ISKCON preaching projects. I feel they are trustworthy. We do have many, many honest hard-working preaching sannyasis in our Society and to tar them all with the mistakes of the past fallen is clearly wrong. Besides that, temple leaders are also prone to mispending money, the records speak for themselves. ys ada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 Recently here in India, one sanyassi (guru), just declared that he has $100,000, in private accounts, amid the cries of financial accountablities of the Iskcon leaders. This sanyassi only declares $100,000, but in reality, he has much more than that. Many grihasta devotees, myself included, who spent several years collecting lots of money for the movement, can hardly claim 100,000 rupees ($2,500), to their name. I knew one particular devotee, who was one of the biggest collectors in America (collecting over $100,000 a year), for several years, all for Iskcon projects, today, this devotee is just like a typical struglling Iskcon grihastas to make ends meet. On the other hand, the sanyassis are living a very luxurious life of fat bank accounts, first class accomodations (in Vrindavana, the best houses are owned by Iskcon sanyassis). Many sanyassi gurus are set for life financially. In fact they prefer danda to money. > > There are also very rich Iskcon temples in India, which have successfully > cultivated the congregation,and also earn a lot of money through sale > counters at the temples. At least one of them has built five star > facilities for the brahmacaris (like independent rooms with attached > bath-rooms, and luxurious offices for each brahmacari, unlimited vehicles, > sumptuous prasadam etc). I live in India. There is no such temple in India as specified by you. You are portraying us as spiritual organisation whose members live in comfort. Guru daksina is not the property of a sanyassi. As long as he is preaching on behalf of the movement and making disciples, whatever money or asset given to him, ought to be giving to particular temple the donation comes from. Or into a central Iskcon account to govern all daksinas that were collected. I suggest Iskcon contacts Swiss authourities and find out how many accounts are held by the Iskcon leaders (sanyassis mainly), how much mooney, and try to get this money and give it as loan to grihasthas to establish business, and thereby improve varnasrama development in Iskcon. (A wild suggestion I suppose). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 On 17 Dec 1998, Isvara das wrote: > Guru daksina is not the property of a sanyassi. As long as he is preaching > on behalf of the movement and making disciples, whatever money or asset > given to him, ought to be giving to particular temple the donation comes > from. Or into a central Iskcon account to govern all daksinas that were > collected. > > I suggest Iskcon contacts Swiss authourities and find out how many accounts > are held by the Iskcon leaders (sanyassis mainly), how much mooney, and try > to get this money and give it as loan to grihasthas to establish business, > and thereby improve varnasrama development in Iskcon. (A wild suggestion I > suppose). All the sannyasis I know here in America (at least the ones I've had contact with) live extremeley austere lives. I have never seen them with opulent clothes or cars or jewelry. They use everything in Krsna's service. As matter of fact, one maharaj is always begging me for money to fix his broken-down automobile. Don't know what its like in India, havn't been over there since '92. This Swiss bank account think is scary, however. Americans always have to live in fear of the dreaded IRS. New laws have been recently passed instructing banks to report any suspicious activities re: cash and transactions with them. A five-page report is filled out and sent to a database clearing house in Detroit. The database is shared with: CIA, NSA, IRS, Treasury dept., Secret Service, DOJ and DEA. The bank DOES NOT tell you when they forward the info. So if anyone does bank lots of cash, they better be pretty pukka with come April 15th (Tax day)...... yfs,bbd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 >Thanks for the suggestion. > >Its against the conference rules to criticize ISKCON >authorities, and therefore I suggested the conference organiser >address the person concerned. I understand. It's certainly a challenging task to try to affect change in ISKCON without criticizing authorities, given that they are primarily responsible for the status quo. The Social and Economic development and Varnasrama development conferences are focused on improving our Society. I agree that certain types of criticism can be very detrimental. Maybe we just need to be careful providing *constructive* criticism and suggesting solutions without breaking conference or COM rules? >I come to a conference to hear >something positive, not to hear the negative stuff we get so >much of eleswhere. Respectful constructive suggestions on how >we can improve are welcome but disrespectfully insinuating that >every sannyasi in our Society is living like an enjoyer on >others' money when they are honestly sacrificing so much for >Srila Prabhupada by carrying on the preaching is clearly >blasphemy. True. It's not fair to overgeneralize. I too know several honest sannyasis who have given much more than they have taken from Srila Prabhupada's society. It's probably also not fair to single people out and name names. Maybe we can simply describe the problem, say it occurs among some and then discuss how to handle it? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 > >Why is it out of order? > > Its just that all the ISKCON sannyasis I know do utilize their > donations for their ISKCON preaching projects. I feel they are > trustworthy. We do have many, many honest sannyasis in our > Society and to tar them all with the mistakes of the past > fallen is clearly wrong. Besides that, temple leaders are also > prone to mispending money, more so than sannyasis. Why single > out the sannyasis who on the whole are trustworthy? It is the great asset to have many honest sannyasis in the society, as well as many honest brahmacaris and grhstas. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 > All I'm saying is that I don't want to hear from > someone who is recklessly disrespectful and foolishly concludes > that all our sannyasis are rascals because of a few. > > ys ada The conclution is not that all the sanyassis are sense enjoyers. I know lots lots of honest sanyassis who even repulsed the idea of taking disciples not to talk of accepting guru daksina. Why are you calling someone disrespectful and foolish. You already cast your judgements before even presenting any convincing arguements to validate the acceptance of guru daksina to use it according to one's whims. It is because of the devotee like yourself that has encouraged the many sanyassis misusing the whatever facilities or opulences that are in Iskcon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 Ajamila prabhu wrote: > Its against the conference rules to criticize ISKCON > authorities, and therefore I suggested the conference organiser > address the person concerned. I come to a conference to hear > something positive, not to hear the negative stuff we get so > much of eleswhere. Respectful constructive suggestions on how > we can improve are welcome but disrespectfully insinuating that > every sannyasi in our Society is living like an enjoyer on > others' money when they are honestly sacrificing so much for > Srila Prabhupada by carrying on the preaching is clearly > blasphemy. I don't know for others, but as far as I am concerned, there is need to re-evaluate the function and the purpose of the sannyas asram in ISKCON. I do not know what the approach to any issue in term of "constructive suggestions on how we can improve" may be there on the first place if the people don't tell their opinions and realization in regard what they perceive as to be wrong. A sannyas asrama in ISKCON has lost a lot of its original purpose in regard to how it is being perceived from "folks", i.e. to be "the perfection of the human life." The bright light to look upon. Don't ask me why, I might tell it. Well, one may do it on a "positive" way also, though. Like, "A sannyas should (a quote form sastra): "So and so and so and ........." Which ISKCON authorities had been criticized here, that you are complaining for? EVEREBYDY, not only sannyasis, may be categorized as those who sacrificed so much for Srila Prabhupada. On the end, it is the question of personal approach and evaluation. Not the "status" approach. "Oh, he's a sannyasi, he sacrificed so much for Prabhupada". I don't agree on with this "cast" vision. Why not start cultivating the understanding that if somebody accepts the sannyas asrama, he does it for the sake of his personal interests for becoming renounced from all the social and wordily affairs in this world, for the interest of his own spiritual advancement. > All I'm saying is that I don't want to hear from > someone who is recklessly disrespectful and foolishly concludes > that all our sannyasis are rascals because of a few. I am on your side here. Please indicate someone who does that, so that we also may know. ys mnd PS. You know that joke from gurukulis, "How can you recognize whether an ISKCON brahmacari, or ISKCON sannyasi, or a renounciate was visiting your home?" Well, if in the fridge something is missing, than it was a brahmacari. If nothing is missing, then it was a renounciate. If the best is missing, then it was a sannyasi. Just a joke, from gurukulis. No need to take it to seriously, as the blasphemy against our authorities. Gurukilis are simply innocent children, what do they know about the snnyas asrama in ISKCON. Got no experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 >I live in India. There is no such temple in India as specified by you. Maybe I should take you there next time I visit! (:-) >You >are portraying us as spiritual organisation whose members live in comfort. Sorry, that's not my intention. My intention is just the opposite. I wanted to say that it is wrong to characterise an entire group of devotees based on the actions of a few. So, while a few brahmacaris and grhasthas do have a lot of comparative luxuries at their disposal, most members live in austerity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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