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Women in ISKCON from Padyavali ACBSP

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Dec. 10, 1998

news (AT) chakra (DOT) org

Sita Devi Dasi <btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>

Re: Women in ISKCON from Padyavali ACBSP

 

Dear Mother Padyavali,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and all

glories to his followers.

 

I must admit I was surprised to read your letter on Chakra, which is, in

part, a letter to me. I hope we can eventually clear whatever

misunderstandings are there between us because you (and your sister) have

always been very dear to me. However, I do not feel that this public forum

is the best place to be discussing my (or your) personal and spiritual

life. I do have many realizations on the brahmacarini asrama which I'd like

to share with you but feel it is better done in a more personal way than

this present form of communication. Perhaps I can phone you this weekend to

discuss things further? If so, please e-mail me your telephone number. My

e-mail address is btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net

 

With regards to the GHQ conference which I had some limited involvement

with, please realize that it was only extracts of texts and discussions

that were posted on VNN by someone who hides behind the name "Ardhabuddhi".

They do not accurately represent what the GHQ members stand for and about

what the members are appealing to the GBC. Certain controversial words were

used which would not have been used in public. For a devotee to have posted

these

statements to VNN would have gone against COM and ISKCON rules but obviously,

"Ardhabuddhi" is not someone who has imbibed the Vaisnava qualities of

truthfulness and fearlessness. I know that you have yourself said many

things to me about devotees, even leaders, in ISKCON, which if they were

repeated here would cause much controversy! 8-)

 

I have noticed that the Women's Ministry's (WM) primary objective is to

achieve complete material equality with the men, similar to the nondevotee

feminist agenda. Though the WM is supposed to represent all ISKCON women

the majority of representatives of the NA Women's Ministry are divorced and

remarried or single women. There are also no husbands or other male

authority figures present on the private Women's Ministry conference on

COM. I ask you, how can all the serious concerns of women in ISKCON be

addressed when there is such an imbalanced representation? Once-married,

non-abused women who are aspiring to remain chaste to their one and only

husband also need role models for inspiration and training of our second

and third generation daughters. Do you think this is too much to ask?

 

I have no argument with your presentation of Advaita Acharya's request to

Lord Caitanya to distribute his mercy to everyone, including women, poor

people, etc but I don't exactly know what you are implying in your

highlighted excerpt from Varsana Swami's book:

 

>*****"When you distribute this pure love of God, don't give it to those who

>are envious, to those who are malicious toward the devotees, because if

>You give this sweet nectar to those who are like envious snakes, they will

>simply become more venomous. They will use its potency simply to impede

>this movement. They must first become free of their >pride by burning

>their own envy. So You don't give it to them."******

 

I will have to assume what you are saying here is that I am bereft of the

Lord's mercy because I (we) am like an envious snake. Is this correct? Do

you think that my/our objection to Malati's being appointed GBC candidate

is due to envy?

 

>Why are the women of the world trying to band together and create some

>measure of safety for themselves and their children? Because this is the

>Age of Kali and the women and children of this age are most unfortunate.

 

Why do we not follow Draupadi's example of appealing to her authorities

when she was abused instead of taking it into our own hands? Why did you

not approach my/our authorities about your concerns instead of passing

premature judgement about our attitude, intentions and convictions in

public? Is this the new trend for resolving conflicts amongst devotees?

 

>What are they trying to do with Lord Caitanya's mercy? Stop its flow or

>control the flow so that it reaches only those who they deem fit to

>receive it?

 

I'll assume I am included in the "they" you refer to here. No, of course

"we" are not trying to do such a thing. The Lord's mercy is available to

everyone, regardless of gender, age, race, etc.. Who are we to restrict it?

What was being discussed was simply whether certain individuals should be

given certain leadership roles in ISKCON.

 

I have always encouraged your efforts to train women. I do, however, have

some personal realizations on how the training in brahmacarini asramas

could be improved. Since you have been working on a book on this topic,

perhaps you would like to discuss this some more. If you uphold the

principle that single women are to live separately from men, how can you

endorse the association of single women (unprotected by fathers, husbands

and sons) with men, including sannyasis. If women take up the service of

TP's or GBC's or Ministers, is it not practically impossible to avoid close

association with men? As you will note in the letters posted below,

Prabhupada did not want such women sewing clothes for sannyasis what to

speak of managerial discussions.

 

"You may check that they are chanting and following the rules but do not get

involved with their management. So far your suggestion that they sew

clothes for the sannyasis Deities it is not possible. Sannyasis may have no

connection with women." (Letter to: Jayatirtha Calcutta 13 January, 1976)

 

It is an ISKCON Law that:

 

[LAW] 620. THAT the following is added to GBC resolution 413-96: "Standards

of a temple

president: A female temple president should;

- see all men as son except her husband.

- never be alone with a man except one's husband.

- avoid intimate dealings with men.

- as far as possible appoint a senior man to deal with men's affairs.

- in certain conditions it may be prudent for a female president to

have her husband deal with the men, or for a male president to have his wife

deal with the women. The general principle is that the temple president should

avoid intimate dealings with the opposite sex.

 

It is also a GBC resolution that:

 

26.4.5 Whereas it is against Vedic and Vaisnava principles for women to take

sannyas, and whereas it is not authorized by Srila Prabhupada, it is resolved

that those women rejoining ISKCON after taking sannyas are free to rejoin

their families. If any woman devotee is internally committed to celibacy

they are welcome to follow that decision in ISKCON in white cloth and to render

devotional service up to their full capacity and dedicate themselves to the

sankirtan movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They are to be encouraged

and respected as preachers. (94)

 

I find it discouraging when women leaders/role models do not follow these

guidelines.

 

>******Prabhupada DOESN'T DESCRIBE AN ASHRAM OF MARRIED

>WOMEN MIXED WITH UNMARRIED WOMEN. (So for the grhastas to look after the

>women's affairs is not Srila Prabhupada's instruction.)

 

What was being proposed by GHQ'ers was not that grhasthas take charge of

women's asramas but that the women's ministry (which is not just for

brahmacarinis) be supervised by grhasthas rather than sannyasis.

 

>Don't try to twist things to suit your personal concoctions of His mercy. This

>is not good. I am very surprised that you would speak and act in such a

>fashion.

 

Can you please elaborate and be more specific?

 

>That others have joined you is even more shocking. There is no

>mercy in what you say and no love in what you do. I personally have no

>interest in pursuing your line of thinking as it is wrong for this age

>and for the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

 

Can you please elaborate and be more specific?

 

>You see what will happen if the Grhastas take over the women's ashrams.

>Jiva prabhu (who was found shot to death after he took over the women's

>program in Berkeley), and Dharmatma Dasa in New Vrindama ended up with 4

>wives.

 

No one has ever proposed such a thing, Mother Padyavali. We have discussed

the necessity of women's asramas on the Dharma conference and the members

there know our views and have seen how we have encouraged Malati in this

regard. I would be interested in your thoughts on the following GBC

resolution:

 

26.4.2 ISKCON does not support an independent all-women's asrama,

because in every case a woman should be protected by a man.(76)

 

>You often state that your years as a Brahmacharini prepared you for the

>austerities of Grhasta ashram where you have four children.

 

This is true (and I have another on the way). But my particular experience

in the brahmacharini ashrama didn't prepare me for my household duties. I was

often hearing that babies were "stool bags" and grhastha women were "in

maya". I was told, when the Indian life-member ladies made some objection

to our going to sell flowers in bars on New Year's Eve that they had no

taste for or experience of Lord Caitanya's mercy. I was told, when I

wanted to learn how to cook and do aratis on the altar, that only devotees

who couldn't do anything else but "ring the bells in the temple" should do

those services. Do you remember having said these things? Do you still

hold those views? Do you think that the methods Prabhupada recommended for

training brahmacarinis are identical to those he instructed for training

our second generation daughters?

 

I know you preferred straight book distribution to collecting but we ended

up collecting laksmi from paraphernalia sales and then distributing

books for free. I preferred selling stickers in Chinatown, partly because

the Chinese didn't like their bodies being "pinned" with a sticker, neither

did I like doing this. I couldn't bring myself to do the "change-up" which

other Mothers were expert at. I was so naive at seventeen that it took me

awhile to figure out what kind of bar I was selling roses in on Valentine's

Day, where the women were dancing with other women.

 

When I lived with you in Montreal, there was a time when my health had

weakened to the point where I stopped my monthly cycle. When I approached

you with this concern, you flatly told me not to talk to you about such

things, since you were a renunciate (a few years later, you remarried). I

began to pace myself more and took regular breaks while doing the "pin-up".

I happened to buy some almonds once on a break and found that it helped my

energy. As I continued eating almonds every day, I found my leg cramps

disappeared. Later, I discovered in a health book that leg cramps were a

sign of calcium deficiency.

 

>Because you have this experience in your own life why are you now acting

>as a spy for those male devotees who are trying to make the women's

>ministry a villain and blame everything going wrong in ISKCON on it. They

>are using you as their token women in their crazy schemes. You know this

>is nonsense.

 

What you say here is not true. Has someone told you this or are these your

own conclusions?

 

>You are being used to collect all "the dirt" on all the women leaders so

>as to vilify them and have people disrespect them. You are spying on

>their conference and reporting back to these men. Why? This is wrong

>Sita.

 

What you are saying here is also incorrect.

 

>You are also a woman in this movement and you are raising three daughters

>and a >son.

 

What do you mean? This is not a matter of men against women. It's a matter

of understanding the cultural goals of ISKCON. Do you think that my being a

woman obliges me to support all the philosophical conclusions and social

objectives of the Women's Ministry?

 

>Jivan Mukta sounds like some wild fanatic.

 

No, he is definitely not a "wild fanatic" but I never thought I'd see the

day that you would criticize my husband (pati-guru) like this, not only to

me directly, but to the whole world via the Internet! You have known my

husband longer than I have. He and Bhakti Marga Swami, as brahmacaris, were

practically single-handedly maintaining the entire Toronto temple. As a

grhastha he made many sacrifices to assist in helping the crises which

arose in the temple management. You also know well how he is, and always

has been, a very responsible husband and father. I am deeply offended by

your accusation.

 

>What is happening with him? He must calm down or his own name calling of

>senior devotees will bring him down.

 

Why not be specific in what "name calling of senior devotees" you are

referring to? Also, why did you not pose your concerns to a senior male

devotee to speak to my husband? If not for the strength of our marriage,

this type of criticism is something which could easily destroy it. I wonder

how many marriages in ISKCON have been ruined by similar interference.

 

Always your servant, Sita dd

PS- Here are a few letters from Prabhupada on the subject of Yamuna's

women's asrama which you may find inspiring/educational.

 

Letter to: Yamuna

--

Los Angeles

26 July, 1970

70-07-26

London

My Dear Yamuna,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 12

July, 1970, and noted the contents. I have also received the pera and it is

very nice. I know that you prepare everything very carefully for the

Deities. You can offer the Deities as many varieties of sweetmeats as

possible.

I am very glad to learn that your training program is going on and the

result is that now men are trained for opening and maintaining new

branches. This is very much encouraging to me. So there are many things to

be trained up and I am sure both yourself and Gurudasa are competent to

execute them. So your program of study is very nice and regulated. Try to

chant the mantras. It will not be difficult because the transliterations

are there. In Los Angeles temple they are doing it very nicely every

morning.

Yes, I am glad to learn that the brahmacarinis are engaged in assisting

work and cleaning. These are the most important duties for the

brahmacarinis--namely cleansing. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally used to

inspect temple cleaning and if He would see a little particle of dust He

would remark, ``O, you have not done very nice.'' So try to follow His

footsteps in the matter of cleansing. By nicely cleansing one can get

promotion in the spiritual kingdom in some of the Vaikuntha planets--it is

so nice.

So your program for training your Godsisters is very nice, so do it nicely

as you have got experience in arcana. There is no matter if there is a

little change here and there--the real duty is love and devotion. But you

say that the women with children make their schedules around their

children. That is the difficulty for family men, their first worshipable

object becomes the children. What can be done? You are fortunate that you

have got Krsna as your son.

The slides which you have sent of recent temple innovations is very, very

excellent. One Bengali gentleman from London has sent me a letter praising

your decoration of the Deities. The exact words he has used are that one

cannot turn his face once turning towards the Deities. I have also seen the

slides and my opinion is also the same. Please, therefore, go on getting

credit for your service to the Lord. I am very much happy to learn it. Does

your husband sometimes help you in this connection or not? I think he

should be also trained up so that one day in a week he may also take charge

of the Deities although he has got many other duties.

Yes, I have received the article from the Swedish newspaper. I could not

read it, but it appears to be very nice. I have also received the two

articles on the Rathayatra festival. Thank you very much.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS:dm

 

Letter to: Yamuna

--

Johannesburg

22 October, 1975

75-10-22

P.O. Box 65

Murphy, Oregon

My dear Yamuna devi dasi,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated

October 11, 1975 and I have noted the contents with care. The picture of

the cows shows that they are very nice and friendly.

You have my consent to go ahead with your plan of pratistha for Sri-Sri

Radha-Krishna arca vigrahah. You may call them Radha-Banabihari.

The idea of a woman's asrama is good. Those not married, if there is not

provision for separate living quarters for them in the temples, they can go

there. It is very risky having single women living in the temples,

especially where there is no suitable living quarters.

I hope that this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/pks

 

Letter to: Jayatirtha

--

Calcutta

13 January, 1976

76-01-13

Berkeley

My dear Jayatirtha,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated

December 24th, 1975.

The $1900 payment should be used half for Gurukula and half for the Temple.

Regarding Yamuna and Dinatarine, they want to live independently, that is

the defect. A woman cannot live independent. According the the Vedic

culture a woman is always to be protected by a man. Why they should

purchase a house? We already have Los Angeles. If they want they can have a

separate asrama supported independently of ISKCON. Every woman in America

has money, so why do they want support? No, the BBT cannot give them loan.

You may check that they are chanting and following the rules but do not get

involved with their management. So far your suggestion that they sew

clothes for the sannyasis Deities it is not possible. Sannyasis may have no

connection with women.

I hope this meets you well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/tkg

 

Letter to: Yamuna, Dinatarine

--

Calcutta

13 January, 1976

76-01-13

 

My Dear Yamuna and Dinatarine,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated

December 24th, 1976.

I am very pleased to see the nice photos of your Deities Radha Vanebehari.

The singasana has also come out very nicely.

You can attract the fair sex community. Most of them are frustrated being

without any home or husband. If you can organize all these girls they will

get a transcendental engagement and may not be allured to the frustration

of life. Your engagement should be chanting and worship of the Deity Jiva

Goswami advises that in the Kali-yuga sankirtana is the principle worship.

Even if one chants many mantras it must be preceded by glorious sankirtana.

Sankirtana is the maha-mantra.

Yes, you are right, women are generally after sense gratification. That is

the disease. Chant 24 hours a day and don't dress nicely to attract men. It

is better that you don't make a large program. Remain a humble program. In

bhakti there is no grotesque program. A humble program is better. We are

doing all these grotesque programs to allure the masses. My Guru Maharaja

used to say that no one hears from a person coming from a humble, simple

life. You remain always very humble.

So far as giving loans, I think it won't be possible because in India we

require a huge amount of money for Bombay and Mayapur. We also have to

build nice Temples at Kuruksetra and Jagannatha Puri. The Americans are

accused of being C.I.A., so counteract this. We want to prove how Americans

have constructed very large temples. Certainly it is not for C.I.A.

propaganda.

Sita Devi, Mother Laksmi, wife of Lord Ramacandra, went to live with

Valmiki Muni in a cottage. Although she was a King's daughter and a King's

wife, she preferred to live very humbly in the cottage of Valmiki Muni with

two sons in the absence of Ramacandra. That should be the ideal example.

Women when not with husband must live very very humbly and simple life.

I hope this meets you well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/tkg

 

Letter to: Yamuna, Dinatarine

--

Mayapur

21 February, 1976

76-02-21

Murphy, Oregon

My dear Yamuna and Dinatarine,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter

dated February 4, 1976.

Enclosed please find a true copy of my reply to your letter dated December

24th, 1976.

The thing is cow protection is not possible for women. You can keep two or

three cows, but on larger scale it is not possible. You should not try to

take care of more. It is not women's business. Women's business is getting

milk and making milk preparations. On the whole larger scale is not to be

attempted by women. Manage a small asram, but don't try bigger scale, then

you require the help of men.

Don't try manual exertion, then again there is mixture and that is not

desired. Simply keep yourself aloof from men--chanting, many more times as

possible, read books, worship the deity. I am very much pleased with this

girl Svati--she has adopted this white dress. She must not be attractive at

all. A widow is forbidden to use ornaments, nice sari, decoration, combing

the hair nicely. These are forbidden for the woman who is not with husband.

I hope this meets you well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

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