Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Dear Krishna Dharma Prabhu, Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Bhaktivignavinasa Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan kijaya! > Dear Shyamasundara prabhu, > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Thank you for your responses to my points, which I found most interesting. It is always pleasant to engage in discussions that are not polemical. In polemical discussions sometimes, in order to avoid defeat, a person will paint themselves into a corner and can't get out. But if we simply discuss to ascertain the truth then it is really enjoyable. > I do have some more thoughts, however, which I would like to share. > Forgive me if they seem foolish or uninformed. I am by no means an expert > on dharma or anything else for that matter, but I have some doubts with > regard to what you have said. I would not consider myself an expert either. All I can say is that I have read it. I especially like the edition of Dr. R. N. Sharma (Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratishthan) that includes the Devanagari and many commentaries. Probably the most learned person in ISKCON concerning Manu Smriti would be His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Swami. It was the digital edition that he uses at the gurukula that I forwarded to the forum. It is the Buhler edition. I asked him why he was using the Buhler edition? Buhler was a racist and extremely derogatory to Vedic culture and wanted to destroy it. Maharaja replied that he thought it poetic justice to use the translation meant to destroy Vedic culture as a tool to re-establish it. > > You wrote: > > > Manu Smriti is not exactly like the Gita or Vedanta sutras, it is codes > > of law. There are about 7-8 commentaries on them. Fairly straight > > forward. The version I sent is the one used at the guru kula in > > Mayapura. > > I also have a couple of versions of Manu - the one by Muller (God rest his > soul :-) I didn't know Muller did one too. I thought only Buhler did for the Sacred Texts of the East series. >and another translation by Arthur Coke Burnell. Having read them > a couple of times I am not so sure that applying their codes is that > straightforward. Here is the original text of our correspondence: You said: > Of course. But applying dharma, even sanatana dharma, according to time, > place and circumstance is another thing. That usually takes an empowered > person. Srila Prabhupada, for example, was able to expertly distinguish > between eternal principles and details, and thus he was able to present > the principles in a way appropriate to his preaching field, but without > any compromise. Not everyone can do that, and I think we need to be very > careful when we start talking about dharma sastras such as the Manu > Smriti, especially as we do not have an authorised version presented by a > person like Prabhupada. (And I do recognise that Srila Prabhupada wanted > these sastras to be applied) I said: Manu Smriti is not exactly like the Gita or Vedanta sutras, it is codes of law. There are about 7-8 commentaries on them. Fairly straight forward. The version I sent is the one used at the guru kula in Mayapura. And, if there is any controversy then we always fall back on our standard that Srila Prabhupada gave us. Sort of like the fact that Srila Prabhupada used some translation of the Gita verses by Mayavadis because the Sanskrit was so simple that even they could not get it wrong. But it was the mayavadi commentaries that are dangerous and it is the Bhaktivedanta purports that saved us. Anyway you would have to read it to see what I mean. <end quote> When I said "straight forward" I was responding to your earlier comment about "authorized Vaisnava version". My response therefore was that the translation of the Sanskrit is straightforward. I didn't say applying the codes was straightforward. There is a big difference. As Srila Prabhupada said "Krsna Consciousness is simple, doing it is hard." (-: As with any system of law, laws must be adjudicated so that they are properly applied. Governments have three branches: the legislative branch makes the laws, the executive branch enforces the laws, and the judicial branch decides or interprets how the laws are to be applied. The qualification for judges, witnesses, etc is also mentioned by Manu. I hope that this is now clear that my meaning was that the translation was straightforward not the application. > > Furthermore, there are lengthy sections of rules and regulations for the > different castes and orders of life that, for me at least, bring to mind > Srila Prabhupada's famous statement that "if I introduced all the rules of > cleanliness you would never come out of the bathroom". I don't recall that statement. Could you send it to me privately? >Do you feel that > all the stipulations of Manu will have full application in our current > age? > Since I am not a member of this forum I am not sure if all my texts are getting to the "Modern Culture in Relationship to Varnashrama" conference. If they are then in a recent text responding to Antardvipa Prabhu I quoted the following text by Srila Prabhupada: "Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he was a great brahmana politician, and it is by his name that the quarter of New Delhi where all the foreign embassies are grouped together is called Canakya Puri. Canakya Pandita was a great politician and brahmana. He was vastly learned. His moral instructions are still valuable. In India, schoolchildren are taught Canakya Pandita's instructions. Although he was the prime minister, Canakya Pandita maintained his brahmana spirit; he did not accept any salary. If a brahmana accepts a salary, it is understood that he has become a dog. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. He can advise, but he cannot accept employment. So Canakya Pandita was living in a cottage, but he was actually the prime minister. This brahminical culture and the brahminical brain is the standard of Vedic civilization. The Manu-smrti is an example of the standard of brahminical culture. You cannot trace out from history when the Manu-smrti was written, but it is considered so perfect that it is the Hindu law. There is no need for the legislature to pass a new law daily to adjust social order. THE LAW GIVEN BY MANU IS SO PERFECT THAT IT CAN BE APPLICABLE FOR ALL TIME. IT IS STATED IN SANSKRIT TO BE TRI-KALADAU, WHICH MEANS "GOOD FOR THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE." SSR 6 So Srila Prabhupada, my guru maharaja, has said that the edicts of Manu are for all time, past present and future. Also in Manu Smriti 2.6-9 it states: "The whole Veda is the (first) source of the sacred law, next the tradition and the virtuous conduct of those who know the (Veda further), also the customs of holy men, and (finally) self-satisfaction. [2.6.] "Whatever law has been ordained for any (person) by Manu, that has been fully declared in the Veda: for that (sage was) omniscient. [2.7.] "But a learned man after fully scrutinising all this with the eye of knowledge, should, in accordance with the authority of the revealed texts, be intent on (the performance of) his duties. [2.8.] "For that man who obeys the law prescribed in the revealed texts and in the sacred tradition, gains fame in this (world) and after death unsurpassable bliss." [2.9.] In MS 2.7 Brghu tells us that all laws contained in Manu Smriti are from the Vedas. The Vedas are eternal, hence Their laws are eternal and applicable for ALL time, just as Srila Prabhupada said. In their commentaries of the first verse of Manu learned scholars such as Kullaka quote the smritis "Whatever Manu said is medicine to those who need medicine for their impiety." Chandogya Brahmana. This again indicates the eternal nature and applicability of Manu Smriti. So it is not a question of what I feel, it is a question of what do the sastras and acaryas say about their applicability. The conclusion is that codes of Manu are eternally true. Whether I or you or ISKCON are able to enforce the codes of Manu is another thing. As I previously said a government has three divisions, the executive branch is the one that enforces the laws. So for enforcement of the codes of Manu would, as stated by Manu, require the existence of a powerful King who is the embodiment of the rod of chastisement. Such a king by chastising the people takes away their bad karma. Since such a king is not found then the edicts of Manu will be enforced in that whatever karmavipaka is associated with the crimes will come to pass in another life. So there is no escaping Manu. > Then there are the more controversial sections dealing with atonements, > such as the following for an adulteress and her violator, and for a > brahmin who has drunk liquor: > > "If a wife, proud of the greatness of her relatives or (her own) > excellence, violates the duty which she owes to her lord, the king shall > cause her to be devoured by dogs in a place frequented by many. [v.8.371.] > Let him cause the male offender to be burnt on a red-hot iron bed; they > shall put logs under it, (until) the sinner is burned (to death). > [v.8.372.]" > > "A twice-born man who has (intentionally) drunk, through delusion of mind, > (the spirituous liquor called) Sura shall drink that liquor boiling-hot; > when his body has been completely scalded by that, he is freed from his > guilt; [v.11.91.] > Or he may drink cow's urine, water, milk, clarified butter or (liquid) > cowdung boiling-hot, until he dies; [v.11.92.]" > > Can you see these being applied in this way today? As I said above the Law of Manu is very correct regarding what the punishment should be. How the punishment should be judged would require proper adjudication. But, more importantly the executive branch that will enforce the punishments must also exist. Such a branch doesn't exist. But that in no way nullifies the Codes of Manu. For example Manu is very clear about feticide, which today goes by the euphemism of abortion. Killers of children are to be severely punished, and by so doing they will be absolved of the karma of such sin. It should be noted that the reason for the punishment is to benefit the criminal so that they do not have to suffer in the next life(s), and this is so stated in various places in Manu (I don't have time to look it up). So what is the situation today? It is legal to kill children under the plea of abortion. Does that mean that the law of Manu has now become obsolete and that there will be no reaction for such action, does it mean that Manu is not applicable in such a situation? No. Not at all, Manu is totally applicable except that instead of being punished in this life the karmavipaka comes later and is much worse than had they been punished by the king. This applies to the examples you gave above and all other edicts of Manu as well. Man made laws come and go, but the laws of Manu, based on the Vedas and inextricably linked to the laws of karma are forever. And as you know you cannot escape the laws of Karma. Manu's laws and punishments act to shorten the time between sin and reaction and not force one to spend many lives being punished by other means. In fact Manu even describes that after execution by the King the criminal goes to svarga what to speak of not going to naraka. So it is actually a mercy on the criminal to be punished in this way. Now I have not touched on transcendental subjects such as the efficacy of the Holy Name (which I have total faith in), but even Manu has hierarchies of punishments depending on the spiritual level of the person. Hence actual Brahmanas are punished lightly if at all in most cases (there are exceptions), because an actual Brahmana being engaged in spiritual activities is in the constant process of purification from sinful reaction. Just like in the present moment of this ephemeral existence, if a devotee murders someone he is liable to capitol punishment by the state. Being a devotee wont help much in court. > > You also wrote: > > > Who is saying that we try to make the general populace follow Manu > > Smriti? Even Manu recognizes that there are people outside of VAD. > > However, in the conversation that SP had with Hari Sauri and Satsvarupa > > on Feb 14, 1977 in Mayapura (it is on the VedaBase) he distinctly said > > that VAD was to be applied to ISKCON temples. > > I was not thinking of the general populace, but of people coming to KC. I > have read that conversation many times and I do understand that VAD is to > be applied in ISKCON. But VAD is meant for high class persons. In the SB > 7.11.8-12 Narada gives a list of thirty exalted qualities that all humans > should try to acquire. Then in the purport to 7.11.13 SP writes, > > "After giving a general list of thirty qualifications for one's behavior, > Narada Muni now describes the principles of the four varnas and four > asramas. A human being must be trained in the above-mentioned thirty > qualities; otherwise, he is not even a human being. Then, among such > qualified persons, the varnasrama process should be introduced." > > Where though shall we find such qualified persons these days? Not easy. > But if people engage in sankirtana for some time, then these qualities > will begin to appear and VAD becomes a possibility. That is my point, for > whatever it may be worth. Yes this is absolutely true. Srila Prabhupada often times said that VAD was very hard in this age, yet he also said it had to be done anyway. And, I believe it was in Fiji that he said that by lots and lots of Hari Nama VAD would be able to be introduced for the general benefit of the world. So Hari Nama Sankirtana is the actual panacea. But my point still stands, as we all know ignorance of the law (Manu Smriti) is no excuse. This, then is even more impetus for us to be more serious in making sure that Hari Nama is done more often and for longer durations. Because by hearing the Holy Names people not only destroy their sinful reactions which they would otherwise have to suffer as indicated by Manu, but they also get purified so that they can naturally accept good behavior and avoid sin and take to spiritual life. > > Finally you wrote: > > > But let me sign off by asking you a simple question: Why do we vow, at > > the time of diksa, to refrain from eating onions and garlic? > > Well, you've got me there. At neither of my dikshas :-) did I make such a > vow, nor have I seen anyone else specify these items at initiation. > What? You didn't take such a vow at your initiation? I am really surprised actually shocked is a better word. How could this be? I had to take such a vow from Srila Prabhupada and the same with everyone else I know. That is why I follow it so closely. You actually shocked me so much I had to go and make sure I was not mistaken after all these years on this. (I almost went into cardiac arrest.) In this text Srila Prabhupada states that he wont take as a disciple those who don't follow the rules including onion eating: Prabhupada: Yes. So these boys, they are advised to follow the regulative principle: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no fish, no egg, no onion. So many "no's." Guest (2): That is also... Guest (1): No, Guruji, you cannot take these persons who are by this strictness as your disciple only. Prabhupada: No. Yes. Yes. Guest (1): You should take us as your disciple even. Prabhupada: You should follow my rules and regulations. I can take. Room Conversation with Film Producer about Krsna Lila-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara This next one is from an initiation lecture notice how Srila Prabhupada includes onions and garlic as an important item of the regulative principles. "So this Bhagavata-dharma is very nice, it is universal, it can be accepted by everyone. Unfortunately, so long there was no preaching of this Bhagavata-dharma. Now, by the grace of Krsna, Lord Caitanya, the Bhagavata-dharma is now being expanded in the Western countries. I am very glad that boys and girls from this part of the world, they are also embracing and they are nicely chanting and following the rules and regulations. So I think Krsna will be very... So initiation means this is the beginning. Now you have to follow the rules and regulations. What are the rules and regulations? Only four principles. Don't have any illicit sex life. Don't have any food besides prasadam or foodstuff offered to Krsna. And Krsna does not eat anything beyond the vegetarian group. Because in the Bhagavad-gita it is said patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [bg. 9.26]. So you cannot offer Krsna anything beyond this scope. So there is no question of nonvegetarian diet, including fish, eggs, even onions, and lentils, what is called? Lentils? That dahl, pulses? So you have got from your Godbrother, you will know. And you are eating here Krsna prasadam. And no gambling and no intoxication, including smoking, tea taking, coffee taking. No gambling, no intoxication. These four principles. No illicit sex life, no nonvegetarian diet, no gambling, and no intoxication. These four principles have to be followed and in the beginning the offenses. Where is...? You read the offenses. You haven't got?" Initiation of Jayapataka Dasa-Montreal, July 24, 1968 [by lentils means Masur Dahl] Another initiation lecture. (This devotee was obviously a bit nervous.) Prabhupada: What are the rules and regulations? Devotee (5): Pardon? Prabhupada: What are the rules and regulations? Devotee (5): (Hindi) No meat, onions, tea, wine, and all these four principles. Prabhupada: Illicit sex. Devotee (5): Illicit. Initiation Lecture-Hyderabad, August 22, 1976 Prabhupada: We don't eat anything which is not offered to Krsna. We first of all prepare foodstuff as recommended in the scripture. They are mostly from vegetable, grains, fruits, milk. So we have got enough food. Interviewer: No meat of any kind. Prabhupada: No. No meat, no onion, no garlic, no intoxication, no liquor, we don't smoke even, we don't take tea, coffee. We simply take what is absolutely necessary for keeping the body fit to execute Krsna consciousness. We don't indulge in luxury..., or for the satisfaction of the tongue. Radio Interview-March 12, 1968, San Francisco Hari-sauri: We were told it was good for relieving high blood pressure and clearing the... Indian man: Relieving high blood pressure, best is garlic. Prabhupada: Garlic. Indian man: Garlic, you don't want it. (laughter) Prabhupada: Garlic, onions, prohibited. Room Conversation-October 9, 1976, Aligarh Gopala Krsna: So I'll arrange for your idlis, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Idlis and if dosa... Dosa? Gopala Krsna: Yes. There's two types of dosas. One is masala; one is sada. Masala has got potatoes inside. Prabhupada: Potatoes? Gopala Krsna: Yes, inside. What they do is... Inside it's like... Prabhupada: Which one is better? Gopala Krsna: Sada is without. Prabhupada: That's all right. Gopala Krsna: Sada? Or I'll get masala if there are no onions in it. Sometimes they put onions. Prabhupada: No, no, no. Gopala Krsna: If there's no onions, I'll get one masala also. Okay. Prabhupada: (japa) Except in few provinces, everyone eats onion, all over the world. And garlic. In Western countries I think onion and garlic, cent percent they eat. Hari-sauri: Not so much garlic but onion anyway. Onions they love, big ones. Letter to Russian-January 5, 1977, Bombay Tamala Krsna: The thing..., there is always some smell of onion or garlic here. This place, very often there is smell from cooking of garlic or onions. It is coming from those houses. Prabhupada: Tenant. Tamala Krsna: Yes. Prabhupada: They eat. Tamala Krsna: They eat meat. Prabhupada: It is not meat. They are eating garlic. Those Christian tenant, they are eating. And onion everyone eats. Tamala Krsna: Except for us. Americans are very fond of onions. Yeah. They can eat a whole onion sometimes in one meal. They eat raw. Especially in the salad they will put onions. Prabhupada: For a meat-eater, onion is very sweet. Tamala Krsna: For fish eater. Prabhupada: And fish eater. Tamala Krsna: Fish, meats. Prabhupada: Actually, meat has no taste. The onion creates taste. Tamala Krsna: Dead flesh. Prabhupada: Onion is used. Onions. In India both Hindus and Muslims eat. More than potato, it is said. Tamala Krsna: Hm. Potato is king of vegetables. Prabhupada: We have seen many canvassers. (calling like street vendor:) "Bataka."(?) Tamala Krsna: Hm. Prabhupada: Kada bataka.(?) Everyone has to eat. The Maharastrians, they eat, even the brahmanas. In 1927, I came to Bombay and stayed in the Empire Hindu Hotel. I think it is still there. Very nice hotel. So it is under Maharastrians. Very neat and clean everything. Gave me onions. "What is this? Onions?" I was surprised. "I don't eat." Tamala Krsna: He must have been surprised that you wouldn't eat it. Prabhupada: Well, they know... Mostly Hindus they do not eat. But they are accustomed now. Just like Bengal, fish eating is no offense. Tamala Krsna: Even the brahmanas. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Brahmana, gosais, so-called gurus. Room Conversation about Harijanas-April 10, 1977, Bombay Tamala Krsna: And watch television. That is the great American sport, watching television. When Mr. Dwivedi and his friends were asking, I went over what our... I gave him an idea of what our menu would be. So he was saying, "So four o'clock in the afternoon will be tea or coffee?" I said, "We don't drink tea or coffee. We don't take cigarette. We don't go to the cinema." Actually I should have told him, "No onions or garlic." I didn't tell him, you know. You'll tell him when we go there. Prabhupada: You just appoint one local cook. There are good cooks. Morning Talk-April 25, 1977, Bombay "You'll find similar contradiction in the Vedic injunctions. But because it is said by the Vedas that bone of an animal is impure, you have to accept. But this bone of an animal, conchshell, is pure. Just like sometimes our students are perplexed when we say that onion is not to be taken, but onion is a vegetable. So sabda-pramana means the Vedic evidence should be taken in such a way that no argument. There is meaning; there is no contradiction." Bhagavad-gita 2.8-12-Los Angeles, November 27, 1968 "Regarding the cook-book, that is a nice proposal to divide into two parts. There is no harm if devotees have invented recipes, so long they are strictly vegetarian, no garlic, no onions, like that." Letter to: Kirtanananda - Vrindaban 27 October, 1972 72-10-27 > I do > refrain from onions and garlic however as I do not want to be afflicted by > tamo-guna anymore than is already the case (which is far too much). But I > don't think it is a particularly heinous sin to eat them - there are far > bigger problems we need to tackle first (OK, go ahead, throw the sastric > rules about onions at me :-) Well from the numerous quotes Srila Prabhupada definitely held it as an important regulative principle. A sacred vow to be taken at the time of initiation. Regarding tackling bigger problems I would advise others (and follow myself) to build up strength by tackling small problems then big problems are easier to deal with. Now as to why it is an important regulative principle. First we notice that the word onion or garlic cannot be found in Srimad Bhagavatam, Gita or Caitanya Caritamrta; the basis for the vow that we, as initiates into the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya, take to abstain from eating onions and garlic is from the Manu Smriti. "Garlic, leeks and onions, mushrooms and (all plants), springing from impure (substances), are unfit to be eaten by twice-born men. [5.5.]" "A twice-born man who knowingly eats mushrooms, a village-pig, garlic, a village-cock, onions, or leeks, will become an outcast. [5.19.]" Note how eating them is equated to eating animals and why they are regarded as non-vegatarian by Srila Prabhupada. So it is not to be taken lightly. By purposely breaking the rule of the Manu Smriti in regard to onion and garlic (when there is no compelling reason) we will find obstacles on the path of advancing in devotional life. Sripada Ramanujacarya in his Sribhasya commentary on the first sutra of the Vedanta sutra quotes his predecessor acarya Tanka (and Dramida) who explains: "Firm memory results wholly from viveka (discrimination).Discrimination here means the purification of the body by means of food which is not impure, either because of its own nature, or because of its source, or because of any special cause." The sastra for this is "When the food is pure the mind is pure, there is firm memory." Chandogya Upanishad 7.26.2. "And, that firm memory is the cause of liberation-"Firm memory of this same character is denoted by the word Bhakti-because the word Bhakti is synonymous with theword upasana (worship)." [bhakti then being the constant MEMORY of the beloved.] The point being that our spiritual vow at the time of initiation to abstain from eating onion and garlic (and other impure food) is based on Manu Smriti. I have even seen a study done where equivalent versus in Manu Smriti and Srimad Bhagavatam are tabulated but I don't have it available now. Though this discussion has been about Manu Smriti and dharma I would not like us to lose sight of the supreme importance of Hari Nama Sankirtana as the highest dharma. Even Manu suggests the same in MS 2.84-85 where he states that the mantra japa (of transcendental mantras like Pranava or Krsna) is the best Yajna. Or, that anyone should think that I advocate Manu Smriti above all else. It is just that the discussion drifted in this direction. Anyway, this is all the time I have to devote to this topic. I have to attend to some urgent matters and will not be able to continue discussing this for some time. Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada, Shyamasundara Dasa www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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