Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 > On 25 Jun 2002, Sita Devi Dasi wrote: > > > Dear Urmila, I beg your pardon. It still hasn't been established what > > "desired activity" means with regards to it being a subdivision of > > prescribed duty. You have presented it as being something a person wants > > to do that is not sinful, not whimsical, and that is in line with his or > > her psychophysical nature/varna. So, is "desired activity" something > > that clearly falls within one's occupational duty? > > Yes, and I give some hypothetical examples in a text I wrote today on this > issue. Did you receive that? If not, I'll write something again. A good > example of "desired" activities is this very electronic "conversation." > > You here explain the lawyer > > woman doing is not engaging in "desired activity". So what is the > > classification for such activity? Whimsical? Emergency? Is she > > performing vikarma? > > It is someone doing another person's duties, which by mundane standards, > might be vikarma. Or, one could consider it emergency, as Bhagavatam > describes emergency duties as doing the duties of others (even then > there's limitations) or the Mahabharata describes how in emergencies you > can do something that would ordinarily be sinful. Of course, > "emergencies" are supposed to be brief and rare, not daily and lifelong. > The results of such work, no matter how you classify it (and I don't think > we should quibbel about how to classify it except by saying that it's not > within either the varnasrama system or the basis processes of devotion) > are often filled with suffering. > > However, how else to engage someone who is already thirty five years old > with little or no chance of doing the "right" thing? Prabhupada is > merciful enough to engage such activities in Krsna's service...but he > cautions in the NOI that not everyone is strong enough to use everyone's > contribution. Exact reference please. This of course shows how difficult and possibly impossible it is to engage such people beyond chanting the holy name. The scriptural reference for using such a situation in > Krsna's service is where Lord Caitanya states to "stay in one's position" > and be Krsna conscious. So, what would normally be vikarma or emergency > according to varnasrama can be purified by being offered to Krsna. This has to be taken very carefully. This morning as I was making my bed I listened to Srila Prabhupada discuss about Narada Rsis disciple Mrgari. Mrgari the hunter was not advised to continue his ugra-karmic activity by Narada but rather to cease it and stop hunting. If one is engaged in dharmic work it is okay but ugra karma will have destructive effects on bhakti. Pouring water while trying to light fire. > > **However** there is also a warning in the Gita not to do something > whimsical and then offer Krsna the fruits. All should be done in > consultation with bona fide authorities and we should be > trying--unfortuately such is not the case universally--to start a new > generation that follows varnasrama. The fact that someone else is stuck in > what should be a rare and brief "emergency" situation as a twenty-year > thing does not make it good nor something that should be emulated by those > capable of doing the right thing. Agreed. "In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, "discussing among themselves." Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves. There are innumerable books, such as the puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and Upanisads, which contain countless subjects for discussion among two devotees or more. Friendship should be cemented between persons with mutual interests and understanding. Such persons are said to be sva jati, "of the same caste." The devotee should avoid a person whose character is not fixed in the standard understanding; even though he may be a Vaisnava, or a devotee of Krsna, if his character is not correctly representative, then he should be avoided. One should steadily control the senses and the mind and strictly follow the rules and regulations, and he should make friendship with persons of the same standard." SB 3.29.17p > > > > > Is there a scriptural reference elaborating on desired activity the > > way it is briefly presented in the Gita? > > I quoted the text from NOD about desired activity in the nine processes > where SP says we may engage in these "according to our taste." Obviously > such engagement according to our taste and desire is separate from the > "ordinary" activities in the nine processes such as sixteen rounds, etc. > > I don't understand what you mean. To me it would indicate maybe one person may prefer one of the nine items more than another. You seem to think it means otherwise. > > > > > > Would you please explain, with reference(s) from Srila Prabhupada's > > teachings, how a Vedic woman would have already been situated in the > > "work" or karma of a brahmana or ksatriya before marriage. Please also > > show how a girl's and woman's caste is anything other than her father's > > or husband's? > > I have tried my best to explain my understanding of these matters. I have > written Shyamasundara a private message today with more details. He can > send it to the rest of you if he wants. In almost all respects, I agree > with the text(s) he posted today about woman's guna. I am not sure which text that is and because of the starnge way pamho has been acting I may not have even got it so it would be better if you send it to all of us since you know better what text that is. The only one I can think of is the following text but it was sent a few days ago. It also seems to be mistakenly sent to me alone: ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Letter PAMHO:5700211 (210 lines) Urmila (dd) ACBSP (ISKCON School NC - USA) 23-Jun-02 21:31 -0400 Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic Astrologer) (USA) [20387] Reference: Text PAMHO:5699937 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic Astrologer) (USA) Comment: Text 10217 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic Astrologer) (USA) Women's role and intelligence --------------------------- Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! What you have written here is excellent, informative, and useful. Thank you very much. On 23 Jun 2002, Shyamasundara das wrote: > Srila Prabhupada begs to differ with you: > > "By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth horoscope > of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and class > arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the education > of a brahmana, of a ksatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may be the case, > according to his quality and destined work. It is, however, possible to make > a change of this general rule under special cases. The educational > institution as Gita-nagari will, as a matter of fact, try to create a > greater number of students having the necessary qualification of a brahmana, > by developing such culture in him, because in this age of Kali yuga, there > is a big scarcity of the brahmana class." Conception of Gita-nagari Part 2 > [Most of this article appears in Back to Godhead magazine Vol III Part VI > published May 20, 1956.] > > Here Srila Prabhupada gives the clear guidelines of how to determine the > Varna of the boy, buy first detecting the guna and then giving the > appropriate training for the karma of that varna. The Guna of the child is > to be determined by considering the following factors: > > 1. practical psychology-the observable behavior of the boy > > 2. birth horoscope > > 3. father's family and social background---his birth situation > > Without seeing 1 and 3 it is hard to determine Varna by horoscope alone. In > the past some ISKCON astrologers have proposed very simplistic methods of > determining Varna. For instance if you had a water sign (Kataka, Vrschika or > Mina) rising you were a Brahmana, Fire sign (Mesha, Simha or Dhanus) a > Ksatriya etc. This is has been demonstrated to be an unfeasible system based > on early enthusiasm with astrology combined with immature understanding of > the science. If this method were true then 25% of the male population would > be in satva guna and potential Brahmanas---this is not what we see in the > real world. yes, excellent point. Thank you for correcting/expanding on my point. Much appreciated. I see the above in my long-standing work with children. Of course at the present time we are, as Prabhupada says, mixed castes of unknown origin, so the family's situation is not always so easy to judge, and the children themselves may exhibit mixed qualities. > > Regarding matching of horoscopes for marriage according to women's so-called > varna and sub-varna. First of all women have no varna what to speak of > sub-varna, this we have demonstrated in a previous text. But they do have a > guna that will predominate them. I have matched countless charts since 1977 > (with very high percentage of success I might add (-: ) and I do not recall > even once thinking what is the varna of the boy, what to speak of > non-existent varna of the girl. Nor do I know any astrologers in India who > do so. At least not based on the chart. In India the society is divided > improperly on the basis of caste by birth only so they generally marry only > within their own community to start with so this is not even a > consideration. > > Theoretically if we knew the boy was a Brahmana then we would try to find a > girl who had more sattva guna. But matching of horoscopes is a very complex > affair perhaps more so than Mataji realizes. Yes, I know only enough astrology to be dangerous! Of course Prabhupada makes the point about matching the qualities of the man and woman (he speaks in a general way about deva, human, and raksasa gana) and Krsna tells Rukmini that husband and wife should be equal in a number of ways, including equal in renunciation. > > In Brahat Jataka by Varaha Mihira, one of the foremost authorities in > Jyotish, the 24th chapter is called Stri Jatakam, that is, dedicated to the > peculiarities of female horoscopes. In the first verse he points out that > whatever greatness, social stature, wealth and such that may be seen in a > woman's horoscope will come to her through her husband. The point being that > a woman doesn't have to work outside the home, whatever karma that is > destined to come to her will manifest through her husband. Thus from the > Vedic perspective the modern idea that a woman has to go out and get a job > to help support the family is fallacious. She would do best to focus on her > duty in the family and whatever wealth or status she is to have will come > via her husband. The same principle applies to dependent children. Suppose a > child's horoscope shows great wealth at an early age when it would be > impossible for the child to get it by his own labor. The wealth will come to > the child via his father. In this way the karma of the family members gets > all entwined. I agree with you 200%. In pre-industrial society where women (and children of the vasya and sudra communties, espcially) made a significant economic contribution to the family such contribution was made from the home, working with the husband (often in a complimentary way, so that they were doing different aspects of the job), without extensive interaction with the general public (or no interaction at all) and keeping her household duties as priority unless she had servants. I have a number of history books that detail this social system, if you are interested in the titles. > > Regarding women adjusting their nature to the husband that is only possible > if the woman is a pati-devanam---chaste woman. It has nothing to do with so > called varna. Some women (thankfully not all) have a very puffed up > conception of themselves and think they are better than their husbands no > matter what his varna. Absolutely. Of course, a conditioned soul is inclined like this, yes? But when women are like this it ruins society. > > There are several instances of men who were pure devotees yet their wives > acted very unchastely. The wife though puffed up with her own self-concept > could not see what was the position of her husband. Srila Prabhupada's wife > fit into this catagory, she traded his Bhagavatam for tea. If I recall > correctly Thyagaraja's wife was of a similar mentality. Ramanujacarya also. Many examples. Our Jayananda, too. > > When Vyasadeva was asked by his mother to impregnate the wives of his dead > brother the two women were disgusted by him because they thought him not > good enough. But the simple serving woman who was substituted for the third > time had no such objection and from her was born the great Vidura. Yes, humility is a great gem in anyone, and especially needed in a woman. > > But a pati-devanam, a woman who considers the husband as worshipable (SB > 7.11.25) never sees herself superior to her husband no matter what his > condition. Gandhari before she met her husband knew he was blind, so in > order to avoid the offence of being arrogant to her husband blindfolded > herself. (It should be noted that because Dhrtarastra was blind he was not a > ksatriya, but a ksatra-bandu, friend of the ksatriyas, and could not claim > the thrown for himself. Thus, it could be said that his stature was lower > than that of Gandhari because she was the daughter of an actual ksatriya the > King of Gandhara (modern Kandhahar in Afghanistan).) By following her > regulated principles of chastity Ghandhari acquired great powers and eternal > fame. Modern so-called devotees(?) of course jeer at these concepts, but we > don't care for their opinions. We use her a an example for our own daughters. > > One of the most famous pati-vratas of Vedic culture is Arundhati the wife of > Vasista. During the marriage ceremony the wife is shown the star Arundhati > and exhorted to be fixed in her loyalty to her husband like Arundhati is to > her lord Vasista. Arundhati lived simply for the benefit of her husband. > Here is the meaning of Arundhati as explained by her: > > "I consider mountains, earth and heaven as elements in which I live, ONLY > after considering my husband as the element in which I live. My husband is > the first and foremost element in my life. Moreover I conform (anurodha) > with the mind of my husband. So I am known as Arundhati." [Puranic > Encyclopedia] nice quote. > > To say that "I am a brahmani and my husband is a sudra" to rationalize > unchaste behavior towards the husband is just that---a rationalization. > First of all because she has no independent varna, second of all by marrying > a sudra she is now a sudrani hence can no longer claim being a brahmani in > the first place: > > "Whatever be the qualities of the man with whom a woman is united according > to the law, such qualities even she assumes, like a river (united) with the > ocean." Manu Samita 9.22 Yes, a truly elevated woman will be like that. But parents and society should avoid marrying a higher class woman to a low class man. It is such mixed marriages especially that are not approved because a woman, in following her husband's nature will be degraded *and* because it may be very difficult for even a chaste woman to give up a truly noble nature. Prabhupada gives such mixed marriages in the modern day as one reason for divorce. > > Just as the reward for faithfully serving a husband in VAD is going to > Svarga (Manu Samhita 9.29) and for serving a Vaisnava husband is Vaikuntha > SB 7.11.29 there is also a reward for offending a husband by the shrewish > behavior of thinking oneself superior to him: > > "By violating her duty towards her husband, a wife is disgraced in this > world, (after death) she enters the womb of a jackal, and is tormented by > diseases (the punishment of) her sin." MS 5.164, and MS 9.30 > > I cannot even imagine what the reaction is if the husband is a Vaisnava. I have seen this many times in ISKCON, and even today such a mentality is encouraged even by ISKCON authorities. It is very sad and does much harm to our society. Such is particularly encouraged when the man wants (or appears to want) more marital relations than is wanted by the woman. Thanks for the honor of sending me your text. Your servant, Urmila devi dasi (Text PAMHO:5700211) ------ ------- End of Forwarded Message ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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