Women's role and intelligence

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WWW: Urmila (Devi Dasi) ACBSP (Padma Academy NC - USA)

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Monday, June 17, 2002 6:42 PM

Re: Women's role and intelligence

 

 

>>On 17 Jun 2002, Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

>> Yes it's me. I can see we're still in disagreement on this. ;-) I'm well,

> thank you, and I hope you are too. Haribol.

>>

 

On 17 Jun 2002, Urmila Devi Dasi wrote:

 

>Oh, ok, then there's no point in discussing it with you. :-)

 

>To clarify my position for the other receivers: *No one's* varna is

determined by birth, or the father's family. Otherwise, why a horoscope? One

purpose of astrology was to determine compatibility of varna. A woman should

marry a man of the same varna, or sub-category of varna. Her varna

responsibilities, yes, are then in connection with serving her husband and

assisting him in his occupation (varna). One could therefore, designate a

woman's varna by her husband because they were supposed to be compatible

before marriage. There were/are certainly some instances where a woman would

have to adjust her mentality to be in accord with her husband, but an

extreme adjustment, especially for a higher caste woman to adjust to a lower

>caste man, was basically frowned upon.

 

 

>Your servant, Urmila devi dasi

 

Dear Mataji,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Bhakta-vigna-vinasa Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya!

 

Srila Prabhupada begs to differ with you:

 

"By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth horoscope

of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and class

arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the education

of a brahmana, of a ksatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may be the case,

according to his quality and destined work. It is, however, possible to make

a change of this general rule under special cases. The educational

institution as Gita-nagari will, as a matter of fact, try to create a

greater number of students having the necessary qualification of a brahmana,

by developing such culture in him, because in this age of Kali yuga, there

is a big scarcity of the brahmana class." Conception of Gita-nagari Part 2

[Most of this article appears in Back to Godhead magazine Vol III Part VI

published May 20, 1956.]

 

Here Srila Prabhupada gives the clear guidelines of how to determine the

Varna of the boy, buy first detecting the guna and then giving the

appropriate training for the karma of that varna. The Guna of the child is

to be determined by considering the following factors:

 

1. practical psychology-the observable behavior of the boy

 

2. birth horoscope

 

3. father's family and social background---his birth situation

 

Without seeing 1 and 3 it is hard to determine Varna by horoscope alone. In

the past some ISKCON astrologers have proposed very simplistic methods of

determining Varna. For instance if you had a water sign (Kataka, Vrschika or

Mina) rising you were a Brahmana, Fire sign (Mesha, Simha or Dhanus) a

Ksatriya etc. This is has been demonstrated to be an unfeasible system based

on early enthusiasm with astrology combined with immature understanding of

the science. If this method were true then 25% of the male population would

be in satva guna and potential Brahmanas---this is not what we see in the

real world.

 

Regarding matching of horoscopes for marriage according to women's so-called

varna and sub-varna. First of all women have no varna what to speak of

sub-varna, this we have demonstrated in a previous text. But they do have a

guna that will predominate them. I have matched countless charts since 1977

(with very high percentage of success I might add (-: ) and I do not recall

even once thinking what is the varna of the boy, what to speak of

non-existent varna of the girl. Nor do I know any astrologers in India who

do so. At least not based on the chart. In India the society is divided

improperly on the basis of caste by birth only so they generally marry only

within their own community to start with so this is not even a

consideration.

 

Theoretically if we knew the boy was a Brahmana then we would try to find a

girl who had more sattva guna. But matching of horoscopes is a very complex

affair perhaps more so than Mataji realizes.

 

In Brahat Jataka by Varaha Mihira, one of the foremost authorities in

Jyotish, the 24th chapter is called Stri Jatakam, that is, dedicated to the

peculiarities of female horoscopes. In the first verse he points out that

whatever greatness, social stature, wealth and such that may be seen in a

woman's horoscope will come to her through her husband. The point being that

a woman doesn't have to work outside the home, whatever karma that is

destined to come to her will manifest through her husband. Thus from the

Vedic perspective the modern idea that a woman has to go out and get a job

to help support the family is fallacious. She would do best to focus on her

duty in the family and whatever wealth or status she is to have will come

via her husband. The same principle applies to dependent children. Suppose a

child's horoscope shows great wealth at an early age when it would be

impossible for the child to get it by his own labor. The wealth will come to

the child via his father. In this way the karma of the family members gets

all entwined.

 

Regarding women adjusting their nature to the husband that is only possible

if the woman is a pati-devanam---chaste woman. It has nothing to do with so

called varna. Some women (thankfully not all) have a very puffed up

conception of themselves and think they are better than their husbands no

matter what his varna.

 

There are several instances of men who were pure devotees yet their wives

acted very unchastely. The wife though puffed up with her own self-concept

could not see what was the position of her husband. Srila Prabhupada's wife

fit into this catagory, she traded his Bhagavatam for tea. If I recall

correctly Thyagaraja's wife was of a similar mentality.

 

When Vyasadeva was asked by his mother to impregnate the wives of his dead

brother the two women were disgusted by him because they thought him not

good enough. But the simple serving woman who was substituted for the third

time had no such objection and from her was born the great Vidura.

 

But a pati-devanam, a woman who considers the husband as worshipable (SB

7.11.25) never sees herself superior to her husband no matter what his

condition. Gandhari before she met her husband knew he was blind, so in

order to avoid the offence of being arrogant to her husband blindfolded

herself. (It should be noted that because Dhrtarastra was blind he was not a

ksatriya, but a ksatra-bandu, friend of the ksatriyas, and could not claim

the thrown for himself. Thus, it could be said that his stature was lower

than that of Gandhari because she was the daughter of an actual ksatriya the

King of Gandhara (modern Kandhahar in Afghanistan).) By following her

regulated principles of chastity Ghandhari acquired great powers and eternal

fame. Modern so-called devotees(?) of course jeer at these concepts, but we

don't care for their opinions.

 

One of the most famous pati-vratas of Vedic culture is Arundhati the wife of

Vasista. During the marriage ceremony the wife is shown the star Arundhati

and exhorted to be fixed in her loyalty to her husband like Arundhati is to

her lord Vasista. Arundhati lived simply for the benefit of her husband.

Here is the meaning of Arundhati as explained by her:

 

"I consider mountains, earth and heaven as elements in which I live, ONLY

after considering my husband as the element in which I live. My husband is

the first and foremost element in my life. Moreover I conform (anurodha)

with the mind of my husband. So I am known as Arundhati." [Puranic

Encyclopedia]

 

To say that "I am a brahmani and my husband is a sudra" to rationalize

unchaste behavior towards the husband is just that---a rationalization.

First of all because she has no independent varna, second of all by marrying

a sudra she is now a sudrani hence can no longer claim being a brahmani in

the first place:

 

"Whatever be the qualities of the man with whom a woman is united according

to the law, such qualities even she assumes, like a river (united) with the

ocean." Manu Samita 9.22

 

Just as the reward for faithfully serving a husband in VAD is going to

Svarga (Manu Samhita 9.29) and for serving a Vaisnava husband is Vaikuntha

SB 7.11.29 there is also a reward for offending a husband by the shrewish

behavior of thinking oneself superior to him:

 

"By violating her duty towards her husband, a wife is disgraced in this

world, (after death) she enters the womb of a jackal, and is tormented by

diseases (the punishment of) her sin." MS 5.164, and MS 9.30

 

I cannot even imagine what the reaction is if the husband is a Vaisnava.

 

Your humble servant

 

Shyamasundara Dasa

 

www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com

[Guest guest]

>

> WWW: Urmila (Devi Dasi) ACBSP (Padma Academy NC - USA)

>

> Re: Women's role and intelligence

>

 

Urmila wrote:

 

>

> Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with some parts but not

> others, and would like to agree to disagree as I doubt we will ever

> fully agree. :-)

>

> It's nice to have correspondence with someone who is determined

> to keep purity and sastric authority.

>

> Your servant, Urmila devi dasi

 

 

Dear Mataji,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Bhakta-vigna-vinasa Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya!

 

I found the following statement by you oxymoronic:

 

"to keep purity and sastric authority."

 

Why? Because you never once in your response to me or Sita Mataji quote any

sastra. Not even once. What you would do is along the following lines:

 

On June 20th, 2002 Urmila said:

 

"The results are the same either way. And either way could be sastricaly

substantiated. "

 

"The fact that there are various material classifications of women is

clearly sastric, and certainly our practical experience."

 

"Some conclusions from the above:"

 

You assume that your position is sastricaly sound without providing the

sastra to prove it. Then you draw conclusions from these unproven

assumptions. Is this not an oxymoron?

 

I mean, am I the only one who sees that there is something very un-Vedic in

your presentation? Maybe you are not even aware of it yourself. Mataji don't

get me wrong. I have been a friend of you and your family for a long time

(since 1979) so take it as a well-wishing god-brother who is pointing out a

blind spot (especially since we are supposed to see through the eyes of the

sastra--sastra caksus).

 

One of the main reasons that compelled me to become a disciple of Srila

Prabhupada was that I immediately noticed that in all of Srila Prabhupada's

writings (and later lectures) he ALWAYS backed everything he said by sastra.

He didn't cut any corners. This greatly impressed me because my background

training was in pure mathematics. I had previously read many books by

authors like Perls, Allen Watts, Castaneda, Suzuki and a plethora of others

that described Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, new age psychology, etc

but they were all rationalizations for doing whatever we want to do and they

were all watered down teachings and the opinions of the authors.

 

But Srila Prabhupada's sastric presentation was exactly like that of a

mathematical proof where every statement is based on previously proved

mathematical theorems or axioms--no guesswork or assumptions. By this

ancient, traditional method he was steering us directly to the Absolute

Truth. His presentation was scientific because he was teaching the SCIENCE

of Krsna Consciousness. It is our duty as disciples to do the same, if we do

not then the disciplic succession will be lost as explained in the purport

of BG 4.2 :

 

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

sa kaleneha mahata

yogo nastah parantapa

 

TRANSLATION

This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic

succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course

of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is

appears to be lost.

 

PURPORT

It is clearly stated that the Gita was especially meant for the saintly

kings because they were to execute its purpose in ruling over the citizens.

Certainly Bhagavad-gita was never meant for the demonic persons, who would

dissipate its value for no one's benefit and would devise all types of

interpretations according to personal whims. As soon as the original purpose

was scattered by the motives of the unscrupulous commentators, there arose

the need to reestablish the disciplic succession. Five thousand years ago it

was detected by the Lord Himself that the disciplic succession was broken,

and therefore He declared that the purpose of the Gita appeared to be lost.

In the same way, at the present moment also there are so many editions of

the Gita (especially in English), but almost all of them are not according

to authorized disciplic succession. There are innumerable interpretations

rendered by different mundane scholars, but almost all of them do not accept

the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, although they make a good

business on the words of Sri Krsna. This spirit is demonic, because demons

do not believe in God but simply enjoy the property of the Supreme. Since

there is a great need of an edition of the Gita in English, as it is

received by the parampara (disciplic succession) system, an attempt is made

herewith to fulfill this great want. Bhagavad-gita-accepted as it is-is a

great boon to humanity; but if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical

speculations, it is simply a waste of time.

 

Your humble servant, god-brother, and friend

 

Shyamasundara Dasa

 

www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com

[Guest guest]

> "Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic Astrologer)

> (USA)"<Shyamasundara.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

 

> Dear Mataji,

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

> Bhakta-vigna-vinasa Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya!

>

> I found the following statement by you oxymoronic:

>

> "to keep purity and sastric authority."

>

> Why? Because you never once in your response to me or Sita Mataji quote any

> sastra. Not even once. What you would do is along the following lines:

 

Shyamasundara Prabhu, I never received the text to which you are replying.

Re. these references which Urmila Devi has supplied, perhaps you can provide

some comment when you get a chance. My view, boring by now, is as follows...

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 9.18.23

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 60: Talks Between Krsna and Rukmini

 

These first and second quotes refer to compatibility.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.14.42

 

refers to the caste of the girl's family.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.17.39

 

These are not Srila Prabhupada's words.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 78: The Killing of Dantavakra, Viduratha and

> Romaharsana

 

Refers to caste.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 9.29-32 -- New York, December 20, 1966

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.66 -- Vrndavana, September 2, 1975

>

>

> My comment: In the first quote, Prabhupada says that women in general are

> classed as “sudra” but in the second quote he refers to “sudra women” as

> distinguished from women of a higher caste or varna. Therefore one can

> conclude that, although women are equivilent to sudras, in another sense they

> are also of the different varnas.

 

Refers to the caste of the girls' families and that in Vedic times,

prostitutes were not found from higher class families.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 6.2.26

 

Refers to astrological compatibility.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB Introduction

 

Refers to caste by birthright. Caste refers to the man's caste.

 

>>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.33-35 -- London, September 3, 1973

 

Refers to the husband's ksatriya spirit which the wife understood.

 

None of the above quotes demonstrate that women have varna, other than an

astrological term used for marital compatibility or the family caste

(father's or husband's varna). If a woman actually has varna of her own but

it is actually something different from a man's varna, then we shouldn't

call it that because they are not equivalent.

 

Again, I offer these quotes, which don't make sense if women have

independent varna/caste.

 

1. "The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brahmana, then she is called

brahmani, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as sudra"

(Conversation 8-2-76)

 

2. "Striyah sudras tatha vaisyah, including woman and sudras and vaisyas,

they are considered as less intelligent. They are considered as less

intelligent. Therefore according to Vedic system, a boy born in a brahmana

family, he is allowed all the samskaras, reformatory, purificatory process,

but the girl is not. Why? Now, because a girl has to follow her husband. So

if her husband is brahmana, automatically she becomes brahmana. There is no

need of separate reformation. And by chance she may be married with a person

who is not a brahmana, then what is the use of making her a brahmana? That

is the general method. So therefore the, even born in a brahmana family, a

woman is taken as woman, not as brahmana." (Sri Sri Rukmini Dvaraka-natha

Installation, LA, July 16, 1969)

 

3. Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupada: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to

man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is

second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the

woman is third-class. In this...Because woman is meant for assisting man, so

the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband. (Television

Interview, Chicago, July 9, 1975)

 

In the third quote, Prabhupada was asked a direct and specific question:

"where do women fit into these four classes?" It was a television interview

and the reporter was a feminist. What an opportunity to talk about

pratiloma, anuloma, sudrani, brahmini, caste by birthright, etc. Same for

the other 2 quotes. But Prabhupada made it simple. He spoke of class and how

a woman is classified in the social system according to the husband she has

molded herself to and is assisting.

 

Ys Sita dd