women leading kirtans or dancing? br & sannyasi should leave!

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Camp: Iskcon Krsna Balarama Mandir

DaNDavats Dear Candrasekhara das. Jaya Krishna BalarAma!

Please accept my respectful obeisances. All Glories to Sreela PrabhupAda..

 

gratis for posting about the ladies leading kirtan quote from Lokanath

swami's book. It is a fact that sometimes brahmacari temple leaders are

under considerable public preassure to allow talented women singers and

dancers in their temple area to serve the Lord/ the grihastha public with

their talents. examples are Janmastami, RAdhastami, etc festivals in the

west, and now in India too sometimes the devotee girls\women want to sing

and dance in front of the deity.

 

the Grihastha devotees/ children\public like it very much and as thus it is

really evolved to become a fixed part of public festivals and yearly goes

right into the schedule planning.

 

What should the brahmacaries (managers) and sannyasi's do--It is really a

delicate situation. walking a tightrope as it were...personally renunciates

may allow it to go on in restricted ways, but personally renunciates should

not allow themselves to see it with their own eyes.

 

> I have a question that follows from this quote regarding kirtans:

>

> What are brahmacaris supposed to do when women lead kirtans in the temple

> or on Harinam, as Srila Prabhupada sometimes asked them to (example: he

> told mother Yamuna to lead kirtan occasionally) ? Should they leave the

> place or stay?

 

read on if you like...

 

"It is still a risk. How many instances are their of divorces, elopements,

grihastha's \ and attracted brahmacaries\and even 'so-called Sannyasi's'

have in the past, been seen to have run off with others wives etc.

 

Although the majority of grihastha devotees are chaste to each other. On the

other hand- still these public singing and dancing, can agitate the minds of

the impure or the innocent's mind can be carried off. If this risk is there,

This being the possibility, or inevitability---why should the trainers\well

wishers of brahmacaries put them in a provocative situation that practically

invites their spiritual death in terms of their ability to carry out their

brahmacari vrata?

 

therefore, better,"out of sight-out of mind".

 

durvära indriya kare viñaya-grahaëa

däravé prakåti hare munerapi mana

SYNONYMS

durvära—uncontrollable; indriya—the senses; kare—do;

viñaya-grahaëa—accepting sense objects; däravé prakåti—a wooden statue of a

woman; hare—attracts; munerapi—even of a great sage; mana—the mind.

TRANSLATION

“So strongly do the senses adhere to the objects of their enjoyment that

indeed a wooden statue of a woman attracts the mind of even a great saintly

person.Antya 2.118

 

Prabhupada's purport.

 

The senses and the sense objects are so intimately connected that the mind

of even a great saintly person is attracted to a wooden doll if it is

attractively shaped like a young woman. The sense objects, namely form,

sound, smell, taste and touch, are always attractive for the eyes, ears,

nose, tongue and skin. Since the senses and sense objects are naturally

intimately related, sometimes even a person claiming control over his senses

remains always subject to the control of sense objects. The senses are

impossible to control unless purified and engaged in the service of the

Lord. Thus even though a saintly person vows to control his senses, the

senses are still sometimes perturbed by sense objects.

 

"Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu taught His principles through four chief followers.

Among them, Rämänanda Räya is exceptional, for through him the Lord taught

how a devotee can completely vanquish the power of Cupid. By Cupid’s power,

as soon as one sees a beautiful woman he is conquered by her beauty. Çré

Rämänanda Räya, however, vanquished Cupid’s pride. Indeed, while rehearsing

the Jagannätha-vallabha-näöaka he personally directed extremely beautiful

young girls in dancing, but he was never affected by their youthful beauty.

Çré Rämänanda Räya personally bathed these girls, touching them and washing

them with his own hands, yet he remained calm and passionless, as a great

devotee should be. Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu certified that this was possible

only for Rämänanda Räya.CC Ädi 10.84"

 

"Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu said, “Although I am a sannyäsé, My mind is

sometimes perturbed when I see a woman. But Rämänanda Räya is greater than

Me, for he is always undisturbed, even when he touches a woman.” Only

Rämänanda Räya was endowed with the prerogative to touch a woman in this

way; no one should imitate him. Unfortunately, there are rascals who imitate

the activities of Rämänanda Räya. We need not discuss them further.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Ädi 10.134"

 

the whole lila is described in Antya 5.11 to antya 5.58.

 

the conclusion is that one whose mind is totally immersed in KRsna day and

night with no other thoughts becomes transcendental to the bodily platform

by absolute unswerving absorption in Krsna katha.

 

thus their platform, can't be imitated by those like us who are far from

being thus absorbed. we have to be carefull.

among the whole conversation in CC, especially this verse is noteworthy.

 

Antya 5.20

sevya-buddhi äropiyä karena sevana

sväbhävika däsé-bhäva karena äropaëa

SYNONYMS

sevya-buddhi äropiyä-considering worshipable; karena sevana-engages in

service; sväbhävika-by his natural position; däsé-bhäva-as a maidservant;

karena äropaëa-considers.

TRANSLATION

Çréla Rämänanda Räya used to act in that way because he thought of himself

in his original position as a maidservant of the gopés. Thus although

externally he appeared to be a man, internally, in his original spiritual

position, he considered himself a maidservant and considered the two girls

gopés.

PURPORT

Çréla Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura writes in his Amåta-praväha-bhäñya: "Çréla

Rämänanda Räya composed a drama named Jagannätha-vallabha-näöaka, and he

engaged two young girls who were professional dancers and singers to

demonstrate the ideology of the drama. Such girls, who are called

deva-däsés, are still employed in the temple of Jagannätha, where they are

called mähärés. Çré Rämänanda Räya engaged two such girls, and because they

were meant to play the parts of gopés, he taught them how to awaken thoughts

like those of the gopés. Because the gopés are worshipable personalities,

Rämänanda Räya, who considered the two girls gopés and himself their

maidservant, engaged in their service by massaging their bodies with oil to

cleanse them completely. Because Rämänanda Räya always placed himself in the

position of a maidservant of the gopés, his rehearsal with the girls was

actually on the spiritual platform."

Because there was no question of personal sense gratification when Çré

Rämänanda Räya was serving the girls, his mind was steady and his body

untransformed. This is not to be imitated, nor is such a mentality possible

for anyone but Çré Rämänanda Räya, as Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu will explain.

The example of Çré Rämänanda Räya is certainly unique. The author of Çré

Caitanya-caritämåta has given this description because in perfect devotional

service one can attain such a position. Nevertheless, one must understand

this subject very seriously and never attempt to imitate such activities."

 

so--

 

Only Ramananda raya could associate with deva dasi's. i.e. train them,

message their bodies with oil etc. He saw their transcendental bodies not

the material ones. Mahaprabhu acknowledged RR's transcendental vision and

said, "he's advanced- If I see the wooden doll form of a women, I become

agitated!" so Mahaprabhu clearly has shown that although grihasthas (if they

are as advanced as RR or Nara-Narayana rsi) they may risk seeing Women sing

and dance.

 

It is still a risk. How many instances are their of divorces, elopements,

grihastha's \ and attracted brahmacaries\and even 'so-called Sannyasi's'

have in the past, been seen to have run off with others wives\or young

unmarried girls\women- etc.

 

Although the majority of grihastha devotees are chaste to each other. On the

other hand- still these public singing and dancing, can agitate the minds of

the impure or the innocent's mind can be carried off, why should the

trainers\well wishers of brahmacaries put them in a provocative situation

that practically invites their spiritual death in terms of their ability to

carry out their brahmacari vrata?

 

therefore, better,"out of sight-out of mind".

 

at the same time Bharat natyam is traditional, cultural and can be offered

tastefully to Krsna Bhagavan. Why stop it if done nicely? Yet who knows what

evil lurks in the mind of lusty persons, both mail and females?

 

there are so many accounts in Puranas \Mahabharata of celestial dancers

getting attracted to each other and getting cursed by demigods for being

lusty. (Narada muni mentions his life as Upabarhana in SB 7.15.69-73 (the

detail is in Brahma vaivarta purana,).

 

that being quoted, I personally think that it will depend on the purity and

mentality of the individual concerned. we should encourage the women

devotees talent to sing\ dance in front of grihasthas, the deity, and

ordinary people.

 

In the west, women singing\dancing may not raise any eyebrows. (yet still My

opinion is that BR & Sannyasis should not be there at all if the women-girls

do sing\dance in the west during sunday feasts etc. or if the men do watch

it, it is only at their individual devotional peril).

 

In India, however, the tradition is that in temples, (as seen in VRndavana

too) women play Harmonium and sing only when *only* groups of women are

present, not in mixed company. In no temple in vrndavana, I;ve seen will the

women sing in public.

 

Hema malini did do professional plays to finance Agra Rathayatra a few years

ago (all women and men tastfully conservatively dresses) yet still I

remember HH Gopal Krsna Swami was talking with me, so many times asking, "I

don't know if I should be here watching this!" He must of complained to me,

10 times.

 

Yet, I'm sure in those UK days (some brahmacaries) appreciated Yamuna

matajis sincerity. after all the govinda tape where Yamuna Mataji is singing

is Iskcon standard while greating the deities everywhere.

 

It is so common to Hear Her voice singing on the tape, I doubt it agitates

any males mind anymore...if at all.

 

In Rostov Russia in 1997, Once some small girls 10-15 years old (came

requesting me) that they wanted to offer my Krsna Balarama deities the

fruits of their bharat natyam training.

 

So I agreed to let them serve the Lords to their full satisfaction-But I

told them, 'I'm not allowed to come see it due to my vratas' the girls were

happy, and not at all offended that I did not stay to watch them personally.

 

I let them enter my room (which was not in the brahmacari area, but in a

rather public area of the temple-I was not there during the performance), I

prayed and requested the Lords to enjoy it. I left... Let the Lord's enjoy

their dancing, and when they left my room, I (outside in other rooms talking

to other guests who had questions) thanked the girls, (to encourage their

service and for their training other girls etc).

 

But non-the-less, I feel that during such performances it must be let known

(warning!) to the brahmacaries and sannyasis in advance of such singing

timings that they are not encouraged (or even prohibited by brahmacary

leaders-TP's etc) from attending.

 

Also, I feel, THe public should see with their own eyes all the saffron clad

fellows leaving before the performance. This will send a proper message to

all, even the Girls-that their dancing, although cultural ok, has no place

in the lives of renunciates...

 

It does not disrespect the girls service attitude or training, yet it does

not risk/ or compromise the brahmacarya and sannyasa vratas either...

fair enough?

 

aspiring for eternal service of Prabhupada's Krishna-BalarAma in Vrajadhama.

 

Vaishnava daasaanundaasaha,

 

TridaNDi BhikSu, Bhakti Visrambha MAdhava