Christian Yoga: A Dialogue

May 19, 2006

On this topic ... I had a nice chat with another member yesterday.

Thought some of you might enjoy:

**********

DB: I looked it up that christian yoga book at amazon.com and found

this review:

"I am a God-fearing, patriotic, white American Christian who is not

afraid of expanding my horizons with a little ethnic now and then. I

even accompanied my wife to a few of her yoga classes, thinking it

might do my stiff back some good. While yoga did do wonders for my

back, when the instructor began talking about chakras, meditation

and enlightenment, I knew I had to get out of there before I began

worshipping elephants and two-headed gods. I missed the relaxation,

calm, and overall sense of greater healthfulness yoga gave me, but I

was not about to let the temptations of mere physical and mental

well-being lead me down the dark path and away from the One and True

God. My wife thought my apprehension about the potential evil of

these weird, Eastern ways was silly and that I should resume yoga. I

love my wife dearly, and she is as good a helpmeet as a man could

wish for, but I could not expect her to see the potential harm of

practicing heathen rituals. I was talking with my local pastor about

the spiritual dangers of yoga when he informed me that a Christian

yoga movement was on the rise and that I should check it out. I went

on the web, found "Yoga for Christians" by Susan Bordenkircher, and

decided to give it a try. This book not only has descriptive

photographs for each of the positions and exercises, it also comes

with an instructional DVD. More important, however, is the Christian

focus of the book. Ms. Bordenkircher hits all the right notes,

reminding us that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, that we

honor God with our bodies, and that everything we do and say must be

as a representative of the Lord Jesus. So how does Bordenkircher

reconcile the pagan practice of yoga with the greater glory of

God? "So to forego the healing benefits of yoga because it is

sometimes practiced within a different belief system is like telling

God that He is not big enough to take something from the dark and

bring it into the light." To Christians who fear that the yoga

postures themselves constitute a form of pagan worship,

Bordenkircher answers, "when you have a Christ-centered intent to

your practice, how could holding that God-given vessel [our bodies]

in any particular position be used for evil because of what another

faith has named it?" She goes on to recount how many of our sacred

hymns were adapted from popular bar songs and how rock and roll, the

very embodiment of secular hedonism, has been co-opted into the

service of the Lord by Christian rockers. Seen in this Christ-

centered light, I realized I could not only enjoy the health

benefits of yoga, but actually bring myself closer to God at the

same time. Who would have thought that a pagan practice developed by

Eastern heathens predating Christ by over a thousand years was

actually a tool for the eventual glory of Christ the Lord? God does

indeed work in mysterious ways."

(end )

DB: So there! put that in your pipe and smoke it! *lol*

Member: God does indeed work in mysterious ways ... and apparently

She has a sense of humor!

DB: Doesn't She, though! I must be pretty isolated from reality. To

me, that stuff sounds like a comedian's mocking impression of a

right-wing Christian. Almost hard to believe it's the real thing!

Member: Oh, you're very close to the reality.

DB: He is a good writer, though. Amazingly closed-minded ideas

eloquently expressed. What a creepy effect.

Member: It was a well-written article, but the ideas are wild. I'm

with is wife. Silly. And I think he's missing the forest for the

trees with his objections.

DB: I think the whole "Yoga for Christians" book is missing the

forest for the trees.

Member: Actually, the Christian yoga thing did surprise me. But

then, they have dieting for Christ too, so....whatever. *lol*

DB: But [the reviewer] seems to have a pretty good handle on where

the "Yoga For Christians" author is coming from! He's her target

audience!

Member: But these body-related Christian movements are on really

marshy theological grounds. Christianity makes a big issue over the

division between the creator and the created -- the divine and the

not-divine. Body-oriented devotions blur the distinction (or don't

recognize it.)

DB: In my opinion there is no initial contradiction between

practicing yoga and Christianity. Jesus works as well as any other

deity ... but that, of course, precisely the issue. He can't

be "just another deity"; Exclusivity Doctrine, remember? ;-) Also

this is "yoga" as un-yoking! What the author seems to be saying is

that she objects to yoga placing god in the individual. She seems to

want to put god "out there" again; that's the opposite of what yoga

is for! Once you put god "out there" it's not yoga anymore – it's

calisthenics!

Member: Exactly!

Member: To be theologically correct – Christian yoga can't be yoga

anymore

DB: Right, the very name "yoga" suggests an identity and connection

between divine and non-divine that Christianity says is not there.

The problem is – and the Roman Catholic Church's objection to yoga

recognizes this – is that once you get into the experiential aspects

of yoga, whatever neatly designed "Christian" mental framework you

approached the practice with isn't going to hold back the

floodwaters.

[Quoth Swami Arugamaswami: "Yoga opens up new and more refined

states of mind, and to understand them one needs to believe in and

understand the Hindu way of looking at God. ... A Christian trying

to adapt these practices will likely disrupt their own Christian

beliefs."]

Member: Well, *we* have it all figured out *lol* Anyway, I think

worrying about sudden attractions to elephant-headed idols is silly.

DB: "the spiritual dangers of yoga"!

Member: That part just cracks me up.

DB: But isn't he right? isn't that part of the objection? At my old

law office, I used to meditate before court appearances to get calm

and centered and focused …

Member: I would imagine!

DB: … and one day my secretary asked what the hell I was doing. And

when I told her, she said "Oh you shouldn't meditate; it's

dangerous." I asked her why and she said her priest (she's Catholic)

had told the congregation that it was a bad idea. Basically, the

idea seems to be that Eastern religions are the abode of demons –

elephant men and two-headed monsters, as our reviewer friend noted.

You empty your mind and they all come flooding in. That is what I

understood by the reviewer's elephant reference.

Member: I think you interpreted the elephant reference better than I

did. You're right. There is always that Christian worry about the

devil just lurking everywhere, waiting to pounce on a quiet mind. Or

maybe on some poor fool doing yoga. ;-)

(finis)

DB

, Janardana Dasa

<lightdweller wrote:

>

> I totally agree with you. When we started this thread though, I

thought we were refering particularly to the NON-ESOTERIC MAINSTREAM

PRACTICES OF HATHA YOGA, which are mostly seen in the WEST & mostly

common to all in INDIA. But I feel you 100% about SMARTAS and their

views and such.

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July 10, 2006

But if this man sees his body as a temple of the Holy Spirit, he

believes that God dwells within him, and if this is true, the

seperation between spirit and mankind becomes very blurred - and also

unknowingly, would he be practicing something similiar to Indian Yoga?

He has tried to deny it and yet practiced it dutifully in his own

(albeit fearful and narrow-minded) way.

Some people consider the Holy Spirit to be the Shakti of

Christianity.

, "Dhirendra Pal Singh"

<dpal.singh wrote:

>

> Now this was a great discussion.. I had to read is completely,

something that I do rarely being a lazy A$$.

>

> Thanks once again posting it.. I had a good time reading it..

>

> Regards

> Dp

>

> , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta@>

wrote:

> >

> > On this topic ... I had a nice chat with another member yesterday.

> > Thought some of you might enjoy:

> >

> > **********

> >

> > DB: I looked it up that christian yoga book at amazon.com and

found

> > this review:

> >

> > "I am a God-fearing, patriotic, white American Christian who is

not

> > afraid of expanding my horizons with a little ethnic now and

then. I

> > even accompanied my wife to a few of her yoga classes, thinking

it

> > might do my stiff back some good. While yoga did do wonders for

my

> > back, when the instructor began talking about chakras, meditation

> > and enlightenment, I knew I had to get out of there before I

began

> > worshipping elephants and two-headed gods. I missed the

relaxation,

> > calm, and overall sense of greater healthfulness yoga gave me,

but I

> > was not about to let the temptations of mere physical and mental

> > well-being lead me down the dark path and away from the One and

True

> > God. My wife thought my apprehension about the potential evil of

> > these weird, Eastern ways was silly and that I should resume

yoga. I

> > love my wife dearly, and she is as good a helpmeet as a man could

> > wish for, but I could not expect her to see the potential harm of

> > practicing heathen rituals. I was talking with my local pastor

about

> > the spiritual dangers of yoga when he informed me that a

Christian

> > yoga movement was on the rise and that I should check it out. I

went

> > on the web, found "Yoga for Christians" by Susan Bordenkircher,

and

> > decided to give it a try. This book not only has descriptive

> > photographs for each of the positions and exercises, it also

comes

> > with an instructional DVD. More important, however, is the

Christian

> > focus of the book. Ms. Bordenkircher hits all the right notes,

> > reminding us that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, that

we

> > honor God with our bodies, and that everything we do and say must

be

> > as a representative of the Lord Jesus. So how does Bordenkircher

> > reconcile the pagan practice of yoga with the greater glory of

> > God? "So to forego the healing benefits of yoga because it is

> > sometimes practiced within a different belief system is like

telling

> > God that He is not big enough to take something from the dark and

> > bring it into the light." To Christians who fear that the yoga

> > postures themselves constitute a form of pagan worship,

> > Bordenkircher answers, "when you have a Christ-centered intent to

> > your practice, how could holding that God-given vessel [our

bodies]

> > in any particular position be used for evil because of what

another

> > faith has named it?" She goes on to recount how many of our

sacred

> > hymns were adapted from popular bar songs and how rock and roll,

the

> > very embodiment of secular hedonism, has been co-opted into the

> > service of the Lord by Christian rockers. Seen in this Christ-

> > centered light, I realized I could not only enjoy the health

> > benefits of yoga, but actually bring myself closer to God at the

> > same time. Who would have thought that a pagan practice developed

by

> > Eastern heathens predating Christ by over a thousand years was

> > actually a tool for the eventual glory of Christ the Lord? God

does

> > indeed work in mysterious ways."

> >

> > (end )

> >

> > DB: So there! put that in your pipe and smoke it! *lol*

> >

> > Member: God does indeed work in mysterious ways ... and

apparently

> > She has a sense of humor!

> >

> > DB: Doesn't She, though! I must be pretty isolated from reality.

To

> > me, that stuff sounds like a comedian's mocking impression of a

> > right-wing Christian. Almost hard to believe it's the real thing!

> >

> > Member: Oh, you're very close to the reality.

> >

> > DB: He is a good writer, though. Amazingly closed-minded ideas

> > eloquently expressed. What a creepy effect.

> >

> > Member: It was a well-written article, but the ideas are wild.

I'm

> > with is wife. Silly. And I think he's missing the forest for the

> > trees with his objections.

> >

> > DB: I think the whole "Yoga for Christians" book is missing the

> > forest for the trees.

> >

> > Member: Actually, the Christian yoga thing did surprise me. But

> > then, they have dieting for Christ too, so....whatever. *lol*

> >

> > DB: But [the reviewer] seems to have a pretty good handle on

where

> > the "Yoga For Christians" author is coming from! He's her target

> > audience!

> >

> > Member: But these body-related Christian movements are on really

> > marshy theological grounds. Christianity makes a big issue over

the

> > division between the creator and the created -- the divine and

the

> > not-divine. Body-oriented devotions blur the distinction (or

don't

> > recognize it.)

> >

> > DB: In my opinion there is no initial contradiction between

> > practicing yoga and Christianity. Jesus works as well as any

other

> > deity ... but that, of course, precisely the issue. He can't

> > be "just another deity"; Exclusivity Doctrine, remember? ;-) Also

> > this is "yoga" as un-yoking! What the author seems to be saying

is

> > that she objects to yoga placing god in the individual. She seems

to

> > want to put god "out there" again; that's the opposite of what

yoga

> > is for! Once you put god "out there" it's not yoga anymore – it's

> > calisthenics!

> >

> > Member: Exactly!

> >

> > Member: To be theologically correct – Christian yoga can't be yoga

> > anymore

> >

> > DB: Right, the very name "yoga" suggests an identity and

connection

> > between divine and non-divine that Christianity says is not there.

> > The problem is – and the Roman Catholic Church's objection to yoga

> > recognizes this – is that once you get into the experiential

aspects

> > of yoga, whatever neatly designed "Christian" mental framework you

> > approached the practice with isn't going to hold back the

> > floodwaters.

> >

> > [Quoth Swami Arugamaswami: "Yoga opens up new and more refined

> > states of mind, and to understand them one needs to believe in

and

> > understand the Hindu way of looking at God. ... A Christian

trying

> > to adapt these practices will likely disrupt their own Christian

> > beliefs."]

> >

> > Member: Well, *we* have it all figured out *lol* Anyway, I think

> > worrying about sudden attractions to elephant-headed idols is

silly.

> >

> > DB: "the spiritual dangers of yoga"!

> >

> > Member: That part just cracks me up.

> >

> > DB: But isn't he right? isn't that part of the objection? At my

old

> > law office, I used to meditate before court appearances to get

calm

> > and centered and focused …

> >

> > Member: I would imagine!

> >

> > DB: … and one day my secretary asked what the hell I was doing.

And

> > when I told her, she said "Oh you shouldn't meditate; it's

> > dangerous." I asked her why and she said her priest (she's

Catholic)

> > had told the congregation that it was a bad idea. Basically, the

> > idea seems to be that Eastern religions are the abode of demons –

> > elephant men and two-headed monsters, as our reviewer friend

noted.

> > You empty your mind and they all come flooding in. That is what I

> > understood by the reviewer's elephant reference.

> >

> > Member: I think you interpreted the elephant reference better

than I

> > did. You're right. There is always that Christian worry about the

> > devil just lurking everywhere, waiting to pounce on a quiet mind.

Or

> > maybe on some poor fool doing yoga. ;-)

> >

> > (finis)

> >

> > DB

> >

> > , Janardana Dasa

> > <lightdweller@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I totally agree with you. When we started this thread though, I

> > thought we were refering particularly to the NON-ESOTERIC

MAINSTREAM

> > PRACTICES OF HATHA YOGA, which are mostly seen in the WEST &

mostly

> > common to all in INDIA. But I feel you 100% about SMARTAS and

their

> > views and such.

> >

>

> --

> Thanks

> Dp

> [The force is feminine in nature]

>

July 11, 2006

, "Dhirendra Pal Singh"

<dpal.singh wrote:

>

> That was a every old thread.. interesting that you are going

through all of

> them...

>

> On 7/10/06, Erotic Ethel <retroprecursor wrote:

> >

> > But if this man sees his body as a temple of the Holy Spirit, he

> > believes that God dwells within him, and if this is true, the

> > seperation between spirit and mankind becomes very blurred - and

also

> > unknowingly, would he be practicing something similiar to Indian

Yoga?

> > He has tried to deny it and yet practiced it dutifully in his own

> > (albeit fearful and narrow-minded) way.

> >

> > Some people consider the Holy Spirit to be the Shakti of

> > Christianity.

>

I know, I know - Blame it on my newbie status and the fact that I

have a notoriously short attention span.You will have to have a lot

of patience )

July 12, 2006

Mahahradanatha ji,

This is awesome.. absolutely fantastic... I am not sure what to do? Have

pity or laugh? Well pity is for suckers.. so I will laugh. A hearty one..

I really liked the following line..

*****************************************************

But Hunt insists there is no way to modify this inherently spiritual

practice to make it acceptable for Christians.

*****************************************************

BTW again thanks to Mr Hunt 2 things are clear

A) Hinduism is at the top of the list when it comes to yoga's roots.

B) Christians cant practice it.. woo hoo..

Please let more info like this keep comming.

July 12, 2006

when the instructor began talking about chakras, meditation

and enlightenment, I knew I had to get out of there before I

>began worshipping elephants and two-headed gods. I missed the

>relaxation, calm, and overall sense of greater healthfulness yoga gave me,

>but I> > > was not about to let the temptations of mere physical and mental

well-being lead me down the dark path and away from the One and>True God.

THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS WHAT I FOUND OFFENSIVE. MYSELF BEING A YOGA STUDENT

I SAY WITH CONVICTION THAT INDIAN YOGA DO NOT INCLUDE CHAKRAS AND

MEDITATION. If one is a Hatha Yogi he would practise YAMA AND NIYAMA ALONG

WITH ASANA. not chakras and meditaion.

This gentlemen could not accept Hindu elephant god that I can acceptt (HE

MAY DO BETTER BY STICIKING TO HIS JESUS) but going out of the way to say

DARK PATH and away from True god is really offensive. Hindu's by an large

are liberal minded when comes to religion. OUR PRAYER DOES NOT LEAD ONE TO

DARK PATH INSTEAD IT SHOWS TRUE LIGHT.

Emptying the mind through meditaion does not mean blankness. Other name for

meditation is visualisation. After meditation one feels more relaxed and

refreshed sothat, focus can improve.

----------------------------

I could not expect her to see the potential harm of

> > > practicing heathen rituals. I was talking with my local pastor

>about the spiritual dangers of yoga when he informed me that a

>Christian yoga movement was on the rise and that I should check it out. I

>went on the web, found "Yoga for Christians" by Susan Bordenkircher,

>and decided to give it a try.

I MUST SAY OUR PASTOR OR ACHARYA WILL NEVER GIVE SUCH ADVICE. IF HE WAS AN

ENLIGHTENTED PASTOR HE WOULD IMMEDIATELY CORRECT HIM BUT NOT MISGUIDE HIM.

LIKE IT OR NOT YOGA WAS REALISED BY an INDIAN RISHI CALLED PATANJALI. JUST

AS WEST FIGHT FOR PATENT RIGHT = IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY PRACTIONER TO

HONOUR THE RISHI WHO REALISED IT AND then start their PRACTISE. We hindu's

are not asking for any contribution by way of profit sharing.

CHRISITIAN YOGA IS LIKE OLD BOOK GETTING A NEW COVER,,- the AUTOR used a

smart sales tactics = she herself being a christian knew the mind and their

sentimental attitude towards iNDIAN religion and wanted to target that

section of society.Otherwise, Yoga is nothing new to West, it is in the

market for the last 15yrs and we never made any issue out of it. This

author Susan Bordenkircher counld not have invented anything new. She might

have picked something from here and there and given an attractive label..

On the whole Christian Yoga is like AN OLD WINE IN A NEW BOTTLE and got good

publicity certainly with additional weightage by way of endorsement from

local pastor. raji.

>

July 15, 2006

The irony being that Ganesha is probably the closest equivalent to Jesus in

the Hindu pantheon. Son of the Father, lord of the Cross/Swastika.

-

"rajeshwari iyer" <rajii31 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

<>

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1:51 PM

RE: Re: Christian Yoga: A Dialogue

>

> when the instructor began talking about chakras, meditation

> and enlightenment, I knew I had to get out of there before I

>>began worshipping elephants and two-headed gods. I missed the

>>relaxation, calm, and overall sense of greater healthfulness yoga gave me,

>>but I> > > was not about to let the temptations of mere physical and

>>mental

> well-being lead me down the dark path and away from the One and>True God.

>

> THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS WHAT I FOUND OFFENSIVE. MYSELF BEING A YOGA

> STUDENT

> I SAY WITH CONVICTION THAT INDIAN YOGA DO NOT INCLUDE CHAKRAS AND

> MEDITATION. If one is a Hatha Yogi he would practise YAMA AND NIYAMA

> ALONG

> WITH ASANA. not chakras and meditaion.

>

> This gentlemen could not accept Hindu elephant god that I can acceptt (HE

> MAY DO BETTER BY STICIKING TO HIS JESUS) but going out of the way to say

> DARK PATH and away from True god is really offensive. Hindu's by an large

> are liberal minded when comes to religion. OUR PRAYER DOES NOT LEAD ONE TO

> DARK PATH INSTEAD IT SHOWS TRUE LIGHT.

>

> Emptying the mind through meditaion does not mean blankness. Other name

> for

> meditation is visualisation. After meditation one feels more relaxed and

> refreshed sothat, focus can improve.

>

> ----------------------------

>

> I could not expect her to see the potential harm of

>> > > practicing heathen rituals. I was talking with my local pastor

>>about the spiritual dangers of yoga when he informed me that a

>>Christian yoga movement was on the rise and that I should check it out. I

>>went on the web, found "Yoga for Christians" by Susan Bordenkircher,

>>and decided to give it a try.

>

> I MUST SAY OUR PASTOR OR ACHARYA WILL NEVER GIVE SUCH ADVICE. IF HE WAS AN

> ENLIGHTENTED PASTOR HE WOULD IMMEDIATELY CORRECT HIM BUT NOT MISGUIDE HIM.

>

> LIKE IT OR NOT YOGA WAS REALISED BY an INDIAN RISHI CALLED PATANJALI.

> JUST

> AS WEST FIGHT FOR PATENT RIGHT = IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY PRACTIONER TO

> HONOUR THE RISHI WHO REALISED IT AND then start their PRACTISE. We hindu's

> are not asking for any contribution by way of profit sharing.

>

> CHRISITIAN YOGA IS LIKE OLD BOOK GETTING A NEW COVER,,- the AUTOR used a

> smart sales tactics = she herself being a christian knew the mind and

> their

> sentimental attitude towards iNDIAN religion and wanted to target that

> section of society.Otherwise, Yoga is nothing new to West, it is in the

> market for the last 15yrs and we never made any issue out of it. This

> author Susan Bordenkircher counld not have invented anything new. She

> might

> have picked something from here and there and given an attractive label..

>

> On the whole Christian Yoga is like AN OLD WINE IN A NEW BOTTLE and got

> good

> publicity certainly with additional weightage by way of endorsement from

> local pastor. raji.

>

>>

>

July 17, 2006

Hey!! Why get het up. We hear a lot of nonsesnse just lets laugh and get on.

rajeshwari iyer <rajii31 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: