the nectar in ma me stritvam verse. kindly re-consider..

[Guest guest]

Camp: Vrndavana, annada Ekadasi

 

Dear KK dasi and others. Jaya Prabhupada.

 

ma me stritvam ma ca me syat kubhavo

ma murkhatvam ma kudesesu janma

mithyadrstin ma ca me syat kadacij

jatau jatau visnu-bhakto bhaveyam

 

"Let me never take birth as a woman, or in a wretched condition, or as a

fool, or in a sinful country, or bewildered by an untrue conception of life.

Let me simply remain a devotee of Lord Visnu, birth after birth."

 

I will explain my realisations of this nice verse. hopefully, It should be

obvious to everyone (if they didn't understand that by my letter to

Dhyana-kunda mata) ..that by supporting this selective usage of this verse,

I'm not demeaning vaisnavi women.

 

Certainly materialistic non-devotee, (or loose so-called devotee) men and

women are to be avoided.

 

Your query:

 

> What about verse 6 of Upadeshamrta (Nectar of instruction written by HDG

> Srila Rupa Goswami)? How Mahamantra Prabhu will reconcile his previous

> statement on the woman's body and the fact that in Iskcon we have

> Vaisnavis that should be treated as mothers with full respect and

> reverence?

 

I *do* respect vaisnavi's like Dhyana Kunda mataji who clearly demonstrate

that they are scholarly, purely caste, who are vedic, and caste to their

pure husbands and behaive in an exemplary way. That must have been apparent

to you by my letter to her. I have many such householder god-brothers and

their wives that I have cordial dealings with.

 

What is the demarkations of exemplary and non-exemplary behaviour is a grey

area clearly subject to differing individual devotee interpretation. yet, we

follow our Guru's example and books to understand this grey area.

 

However, there is a flip side of behaviour which not openly spoken much, but

is well understood by both sexes in KC.

 

On Radha Damodar TSKP, I remember the Prabhupada story told to us:

Once the women went to Prabhupada complaining, "They are not treating us

like Mata-ji (Mother)."

 

Prabhupada told them (mind you, I got this second hand):

 

"Well if you behaive like a mataji they will treat you like their mataji,

but if you behaive like a girl-friend, you can't expect the honor 'their'

mataji's deserve to get."

 

Arrogant matajis, disregarding the proper ettiquette as shown in CC, SB etc

(or arrogant foolish disrespectful exploitive men either) obviously, will

not be regarded or taken seriously by any brahminically minded individual.

 

The loose mixing of men and women, with it's resulting divorce, and

re-mixing both here and in Vrndavana, as I've personally seen it is

distasteful. Prabhupada was clearly disgusted by it.

 

In regards to uncaste wife and husband swapping going on in LA in 1976

Prabhupada told TGK and Giriraja Swami on a morning walk in Mumbai." So this

is the situation there you GBc's should see what can be done"

 

here's the translation of verse 6:

 

"Being situated in his original Krsna conscious position, *a pure devotee*

does not identify with the body. Such a devotee should not be seen from a

materialistic point of view. Indeed, one should overlook a devotee's having

a body born in a low family, a body with a bad complexion, a deformed body,

or a diseased or infirm body. According to ordinary vision, such

imperfections may seem prominent in the body of *a pure devotee,* but

despite such seeming defects, the body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted.

It is exactly like the waters of the Ganges, which sometimes during the

rainy season are full of bubbles, foam and mud. The Ganges waters do not

become polluted. Those who are advanced in spiritual understanding will

bathe in the Ganges without considering the condition of the water."

 

This verse is about Pure devotees, not ordinary ones who act as Kanistha

adhikari's who's behaviour must be reciprocated according to circumstances.

 

>From the purport:

 

"Avyabhicarini bhakti means unalloyed devotion. A person engaged in

devotional service must be free from material motives. In this Krsna

consciousness movement,*one's consciousness must be changed.* If

consciousness is aimed toward material enjoyment, it is material

consciousness, and if it is aimed toward serving Krsna, it is Krsna

consciousness."

 

by supporting the selective use of "ma me stritvam" verse.

 

I am not intentionally trying to offend or in any way demean genuine

vaisnavi's by liking the selective use of this verse in various

circumstances (like some women speculated I was doing) did you read the

rebuttal written by a vaisnavi of that other mataji's wrong assumption of

that?

 

"Bhakti-yoga is the proper activity of the soul, and when one actually

engages in unalloyed, uncontaminated devotional service, he is already

liberated (sa gunan samatityaitan [bg. 14.26]). Krsna's devotee is not

subjected to material condition, even though his bodily features may appear

materially conditioned. One should therefore not see a pure devotee from a

materialistic point of view. Unless one is actually a devotee, he cannot see

another devotee perfectly. As explained in the previous verse, there are

three types of devotees-kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and

uttama-adhikari."

 

Let me tell you *how* I see it that the verse is more than acceptable. It's

great!

 

yet, like any shastric tool, it must be used selectively so it does not

offend. It must be explained nicely, lest it be missused by fanatics.

"Packaged nicely" that is the differentiation of a kanistha adhikari's

preaching and the true test of the preaching of Madhyamic devotees. Such

Madhyama Adhikari's know how to package and explain correctly.

 

"Even though a pure devotee may not be born in a brahmana or gosvami family,

if he is engaged in the service of the Lord he should not be neglected. In

actuality there cannot be a family of gosvamis based on material

considerations, caste or heredity. The gosvami title is actually the

monopoly of the pure devotees; thus we speak of the six Gosvamis, headed by

Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami. Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami had

practically become Mohammedans and had therefore changed their names to

Dabira Khasa and Sakara Mallika, but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself made

them gosvamis. Therefore the gosvami title is not hereditary. The word

gosvami refers to one who can control his senses, who is master of the

senses. A devotee is not controlled by the senses, but is the controller of

the senses. Consequently he should be called svami or gosvami, even though

he may not be born in a gosvami family."

 

This is applicable to sense controlled sannyasis and householders in KC.

 

"According to this formula, the gosvamis who are descendants of Sri

Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Advaita Prabhu are certainly devotees, but

devotees coming from other families should not be discriminated against;

indeed, whether the devotees come from a family of previous acaryas or from

an ordinary family, they should be treated equally. One should not think,

"Oh, here is an American gosvami," and discriminate against him. Nor should

one think, "Here is a nityananda-vamsa-gosvami." There is an undercurrent of

protest against our awarding the title gosvami to the American Vaisnavas of

the Krsna consciousness movement. Sometimes people flatly tell the American

devotees that their sannyasa or title of gosvami is not bona fide. However,

according to the statements of Srila Rupa Gosvami in this verse, an American

gosvami and a gosvami in a family of acaryas are nondifferent.

On the other hand, a devotee who has attained the title of gosvami but is

not born of a brahmana father or of a gosvami in the family of Nityananda or

Advaita Prabhu should not be artificially puffed up by thinking that he has

become a gosvami. He should always remember that as soon as he becomes

materially puffed up, he immediately falls down. "

 

Good warning for us small timers who were karmis a few years ago, devoid of

Prabhupada's compassion. 23 years later We should not loose it and go back

to western behavior and conceptions.

 

"This Krsna consciousness movement is a transcendental science, and there is

no room for jealousy. This movement is meant for the paramahamsas who are

completely free from all jealousy (paramam nirmatsaranam). One should not be

jealous, whether he is born in a family of gosvamis or has the title of

gosvami awarded to him. As soon as anyone becomes envious, he falls from the

platform of paramahamsa."

 

This is why I warned the Brahmacaries in the Brahmacarya seminar in Mosc0w

and elsewhere in CIS to respect sober minded vaisnavi's and householders if

they hope to maintain their hopes for life-long brahmacari vratas.

 

"If we consider the bodily defects of a Vaisnava, we should understand that

we are committing an offense at the lotus feet of the Vaisnava. An offense

at the lotus feet of a Vaisnava is very serious."

 

offenses are to be avoided to *all devotees* but this again is especially

refering specificaly about *Pure devotees* exceedingly rare souls. not the

ordinary ones walking on the streets of the major cities of the world.

 

" Indeed, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has described this offense as hati-mata,

the mad elephant offense. A mad elephant can create a disaster, especially

when it enters into a nicely trimmed garden. One should therefore be very

careful not to commit any offense against a Vaisnava. Every devotee should

be ready to take instructions from a superior Vaisnava, and a superior

Vaisnava must be ready to help an inferior Vaisnava in all respects. One is

superior or inferior according to his spiritual development in Krsna

consciousness. One is forbidden to observe the activities of a pure Vaisnava

from a material point of view. For the neophyte especially, considering a

pure devotee from a material point of view is very injurious. One should

therefore avoid observing a pure devotee externally, but should try to see

the internal features and understand how he is engaged in the transcendental

loving service of the Lord. In this way one can avoid seeing the pure

devotee from a material point of view, and thus one can gradually become a

purified devotee himself.

Those who think that Krsna consciousness is limited to a certain section of

people, a certain section of devotees or a certain tract of land are

generally prone to see the external features of the devotee. Such neophytes,

unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to

bring the maha-bhagavata to their platform. We experience such difficulty in

propagating this Krsna consciousness all over the world. Unfortunately we

are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the

extraordinary activities of spreading Krsna consciousness all over the

world. They simply try to bring us to their platform, and they try to

criticize us in every respect. We very much regret their naive activities

and poor fund of knowledge. An empowered person who is actually engaged in

the confidential service of the Lord should not be treated as an ordinary

human being, for it is stated that unless one is empowered by Krsna, one

cannot spread the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world.

When one thus criticizes a pure devotee, he commits an offense

(vaisnava-aparadha) that is very obstructive and dangerous for those who

desire to advance in Krsna consciousness. A person cannot derive any

spiritual benefit when he offends the lotus feet of a Vaisnava. Everyone

should therefore be very careful not to be jealous of an empowered Vaisnava,

or a suddha-vaisnava. It is also an offense to consider an empowered

Vaisnava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give

him advice or to correct him. "

 

All about Pure devotees or Paramahamsa's--not ordinary devotee men or women,

please note.

 

"One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaisnava and an advanced Vaisnava by

their activities."

 

great! to support discrimination this is good!

 

" The advanced Vaisnava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the

neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be

subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be

obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is

the sum and substance of Srila Rupa Gosvami's advice in the sixth verse."

 

(end purport)

 

ma me stritvam ma ca me syat kubhavo

ma murkhatvam ma kudesesu janma

mithyadrstin ma ca me syat kadacij

jatau jatau visnu-bhakto bhaveyam

 

"Let me never take birth as a woman, or in a wretched condition, or as a

fool, or in a sinful country, or bewildered by an untrue conception of life.

Let me simply remain a devotee of Lord Visnu, birth after birth."

 

I liked that verse because it shows that one must be discriminatory in

dealings with *all* living entities. This means even the devotees in

vaisnava dress.

 

Genuinely proper householders and women who adhere strictly to the previous

acharya's teachings, who are exemplary in behaviour are respected and thus

silently regarded by any Sadhu, brahmacari sannyasi etc according to the

degree of advancement of the person being observed.

 

perhaps you forgot my respect of Vaisnavi's like dhyana-kunda mataji when I

wrote:

 

> Glories to your service, and again thanks for responding to this posting.

>

> With all due regards to truely dutiful and exalted householders, I think

> that Krsna is definitely refering to vaisnavi's like you when he says:

> ...kirtir srir vak ca narinam...

 

Yet, If anyone sees a vaisnavi (or any rascal) so-called vaisnava devotee of

any ashrama or sex *not behaving up to standard* then following the Guru, or

his disciples such a careful disciple *may* (1) tolerate it, (2) say

nothing, (3) simply neglect *or* (4) strongly protest such unfortunates.

Prabhupada mentions this type of discrimination in CC Maddhya 1 218.

 

A sadhu can cut, be frank, even blunt if the situation so deserves it.

 

That is natural. If a brahmacari or any male pretender is a rascal fool,

using this verse a woman doesn't have to give him charity, simply because

"oh well, here's a so-called brahmacari (pretender or womaniser) begging

charity, even though he's a rascal disguising himself," But he is not a real

brahmacari. Why should I donate something?".

 

One respects a fool as exactly that, a fool! Does it matter if the fool is

male or female, devotee or non-devotee, a mother of some children or mother

of none?

 

If at all possible compassionately a vaisnava (or vaisnavi) corrects using

guru, sadhu and sastra references peppered with common sense, provided the

fool is innocently ignorant but not in a challenging way.

 

If otherwisely arrogant, challenging, one will neglect to attempt to correct

the fool, as the logic, "murkho upadesha hi, prakopaya na shantaye" If you

try to correct a fool, they simply become angry. (no use trying).

 

Similarly "Ma ku desheshu janma" .

 

anyone who preaches in foreign countries and tries to uplift them, sees what

an uphill battle it is dealing with strongly rooted western (or eastern)

styles of behaviour that don't submit too easily to vedic culture and

training. That I have seen in practically in my travels in South Africa and

Russia, what to speak of Europe and USA.

 

So a devotee will pray< " Oh Lord what a sinful place! may I genuinely take

up Your service, sO you may deem me qualified not to take birth again in a

sinful place devoid of Your devotees association."

 

"me syat kubhavo", Behaviour against Sadhu sastra and guru is Kubhavo.

 

A Spade is a spade. When Prabhupada made adjustments in Europe and USA

preaching due to western contamination, he did so to uplift us to the point

where we will voluntarily give up our foolish western thinking and accept

the vedic conception as he demonstrated and taught us. We can't deviate from

that example of his.

 

But if the foolish disciples out of false ego and the bodily conception

retains so-called conceptions in the name of modernity, so-called

prgression, or even in the name of *isms* communism, altruism, feminism, new

age-isms or any such *isms*, then they *may* unwittingly stop their

spiritual advancement.

 

All such *isms* are Upadhi's---conditioned labels.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakura (despite his 11 children and chaste wife) also condemns

external mentality as follows:

 

(RENUNCIATION OF ALL KINDS OF BAD ASSOCIATION)

 

na me patni-kanya-tanaya-janani-bandhu-nicaya

harau bhakte bhaktau na khalu yadi tesam sumamata

abhaktanam-anna-grahanam api doso visayinam

katham tesam sangad hari-bhajana-siddhir bhavati me?

 

I now disown my wife, my daughters, my sons, my mother, and all my friends,

if they have no genuine attachment for Lord Hari, for His devotees,

or for His devotional service.

 

It is definitely a great sin even to accept foodgrains prepared by such

non-devotional, materialistic sense-gratifiers. If I were to remain in the

company of such persons, then how will the eternal perfection of my

Hari-bhajan ever come about?

 

The 9th Verse

 

(AVOIDANCE OF SO-CALLED 'DEVOTEES' WHO

PROUDLY NEGLECT SRI RADHIKA)

 

asat-tarkair-andhan jada-sukha-paran krsna-vimukhan

ku-nirvanasaktan satatam ati-dure pariharan

aradham govindam bhajati nitaram dambhikataya

tad-abhyase kintu ksanam api na yami vratam idam

 

There are certain persons who appear to be very advanced in devotion.

Indeed, to increase their service to the Lord, they have long since reject

ed the evil company of:

those who are completely blinded by faulty arguments arising from so-called

intellectual logic, those who are madly addicted to the fleeting pleasures

of the dull material body, those who are averse to and envious of Lord Sri

Krsna, and those who are very fond of the inferior. distasteful concept of

liberation as it is cherished by the impersonalists.

 

They have thus favorably avoided all kinds of bad associations yet it is

seen that such persons worship Lord Govinda without Srimati Radharani being

present. This just shows that they are actually puffed-up with excessive

pride and a conceited arrogance directed against Sri Radhika, Who is Herself

the best worshipper of Govinda. Therefore I will never ever go anywhere near

such so-called devotees - even for a second. This is my strict vow." (end

quote)

 

"me syat kubhavo",

 

When such bad behaviour, (even loose in dress or action) spills out in the

open, (such as is going on in Mumbai) both in India now-a-days and in

foreign countries, due to such unfortunate westernization--one internally

and (occaisionally externally) laments in such a situation--may take shelter

of such a verse. the verse is lamenting about such backword uncultured

things.

 

Our whole KC movement was Prabhupada's attempt to turn the tide against the

slaughterhouse of western behaviour. We should not attempt to rationalise,

or encourage any devotee, male or female to again submit to such backward

westernization which acts to first compromise then totally subvert the

spiritual advancement made under Prabhupada's stewardship of the boats of

our bodies back to godhead.

 

" mithyadrstin ma ca me syat kadacij"

 

May I never have a foolish vision at any time, it *also* means may foolish

false ego not stop one from seeing the reasons behind gurus, vedic, or

sadhus's statements and such sloka's as this one.

 

"ma me stritvam".

 

Similarly, We must respect vaisnavi's of course, but a brahmacari will still

avoid too frequent close association, lest his vrata get destroyed, by

attraction, "oh such a nice lady, a real first class vaisnavi, let me talk

with her a lot" Then the vrata gets destroyed.

 

(see SB 6.1.11 lecture NY July 25, 1971)

 

"Sex life, smaraëam, thinking of sex life, that is against brahmacarya.

Complete celibacy means one should not think of even sex life. Smaraëam. Or

talk of sex life. Our modern literature, newspaper and everything, simply

full with talks of sex life. But this is against brahmacarya life. Smaraëaà

kértanaà keli. And actually indulging in sex life. Prekñaëam: looking,

overlooking a nice boy or nice girl, that is also against brahmacarya.

Guhyam äsanam: whispering between girls and boys, that is also against

brahmacäré. Guhyam äsanaà saìkalpam. Then determination of sex life.

Vyavasäya: endeavoring how to effect sex life. So when we can stop all these

activities, that is real brahmacarya. It is very difficult at the present

age. Etan maithunyam añöäìgaà pravadanti manéñinaù vikärita brahmacaryam eda

astanam lakñaëam iti(?). "

 

Women (and men too much attached to them or placating them unneccessarily)

have strong tendency to remain attached to family life and so vedas teach us

to be cautious in such mixed association. Give devotees the benefit of the

doubt but be cautious of bad behaviour due to our bad birth, and western

background.

 

See SB 3.32 40 purport as below:)

 

"It is not to be instructed to persons who are too greedy and too attached

to family life, nor to persons who are nondevotees and who are envious of

the devotees and of the Personality of Godhead.

PURPORT

Persons who are always planning to do harm to other living entities are not

eligible to understand Kåñëa consciousness and cannot enter into the realm

of transcendental loving service to the Lord. Also, there are so-called

disciples who become submissive to a spiritual master most artificially,

with an ulterior motive. They also cannot understand what Kåñëa

consciousness or devotional service is. Persons who, due to being initiated

by another sect of religious faith, do not find devotional service as the

common platform for approaching the Supreme Personality of Godhead, also

cannot understand Kåñëa consciousness. We have experience that some students

come to join us, but because of being biased in some particular type of

faith, they leave our camp and become lost in the wilderness. Actually,

Kåñëa consciousness is not a sectarian religious faith; it is a teaching

process for understanding the Supreme Lord and our relationship with Him.

Anyone can join this movement without prejudice, but unfortunately there are

persons who feel differently. It is better, therefore, not to instruct the

science of Kåñëa consciousness to such persons.

Generally, materialistic persons are after some name, fame and material

gain, so if someone takes to Kåñëa consciousness for these reasons, he will

never be able to understand this philosophy. Such persons take to religious

principles as a social decoration. They admit themselves into some cultural

institution for the sake of name only, especially in this age. Such persons

also cannot understand the philosophy of Kåñëa consciousness. Even if one is

not greedy for material possessions but is too attached to family life, he

also cannot understand Kåñëa consciousness. Superficially, such persons are

not very greedy for material possessions, but they are too attached to wife,

children and family improvement. When a person is not contaminated by the

above-mentioned faults yet at the ultimate issue is not interested in the

service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or if he is a nondevotee, he

also cannot understand the philosophy of Kåñëa consciousness."

 

The problem in our movement was when sincere women, children, etc were

neglected foolishly due to fanatical outlook. Prabhupada was always

affectionate to his female disciples, as the guru should, yet still told the

brahmacaries to stay aloof.

 

" All women must be married and all Brahmacaries must stay brahmacari". a

delicate respectful, balance according to station in Daivi-Varnashrama must

be understood and upheld. This is what Dhyana-kunda mataji mentioned when

she observed:

 

> I was once hidden behind a tree, overhearing your brahmacarya seminar :-)

> that was held outdoors and I remember you were pounding into the

> brahmacaris' heads that they will never make it as brahmacaris if they

> don't respect women. Those boys looked quite surprised!

> Thank you for your blessings,

 

One sober householder God-brother (who has 6 children and a very chaste

intelligent wife) told me once, "household life is household life, devotee

or non-devotee--the lifestyle especially in western countries is quite

similar, so naturally a brahmacari must be respectful, yet remain very much

aloof and fix his mind on preaching and shastra study, otherwise his

advancement is curtailed".

 

see SB 3.31.32-42 and especially also SB. 6.18.39-42 to see how association

with women and householders in *an inappropriate way non-KC way, can stop

advancement*.

 

the purports are not exactly too comfortable from a new devotee, or

materialistic women's perspective, but vaisnavis *should see* how Prabhupada

is protecting them, vedic culture and KC by promoting a healthy,

traditionally balanced outlook.

 

a further example: 6. 18.40 purport

 

"Then when he marries, if his wife is faithful to her husband and follows

him in such life, the relationship between husband and wife is very

desirable. However, a relationship between husband and wife without

spiritual consciousness but strictly for sense gratification is not at all

good. It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam (12.2.3) that especially in this age,

Kali-yuga, "dam-patye 'bhirucir hetuh: the relationship between husband and

wife will be based on sexual power." Therefore householder life in this

Kali-yuga is extremely dangerous unless both the wife and husband take to

Krsna consciousness."

 

or even heavier 6.18.41:

 

" Therefore, as taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, a woman's singing is

dangerous because it can make a sannyasi fall a victim to the woman.

Sannyasa means giving up the company of women, but if a sannyasi hears the

voice of a woman and sees her beautiful face, he certainly becomes attracted

and is sure to fall down. There have been many examples. Even the great sage

Visvamitra fell a victim to Menaka. Therefore a person desiring to advance

in spiritual consciousness must be especially careful not to see a woman's

face or hear a woman's voice. To see a woman's face and appreciate its

beauty or to hear a woman's voice and appreciate her singing as very nice is

a subtle falldown for a brahmacari or sannyasi. Thus the description of a

woman's features by Kasyapa Muni is very instructive.

When a woman's bodily features are attractive, when her face is beautiful

and when her voice is sweet, she is naturally a trap for a man. The sastras

advise that when such a woman comes to serve a man, she should be considered

to be like a dark well covered by grass. In the fields there are many such

wells, and a man who does not know about them drops through the grass and

falls down. Thus there are many such instructions. Since the attraction of

the material world is based on attraction for women, Kasyapa Muni thought,

"Under the circumstances, who can understand the heart of a woman?" Canakya

Pandita has also advised, visvaso naiva kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu ca:

"There are two persons one should not trust-a politician and a woman."

These, of course, are authoritative sastric injunctions, and we should

therefore be very careful in our dealings with women."

 

What do you think now mataji? If you feel uncomfortable, would you recommend

deleting this part of Prabhupada's purports, because of it's reference to

"the Undesirable side of women" that I spoke about?

 

Yet please note, that I see and acknowledge that Prabhupada clearly loved

all his disciples, men as well as female disciples. And as Dhyana Kunda mata

can testify, I mentioned how he did so specifically so the brahmacaries will

be balanced and not fanatics.

 

In that Brahmacari seminar I told how once in 1972 during the NOD lecture

time, one fanatical so-called sannyasi (now a householder with 3-children)

told Prabhupada, "oh why my ex-wife is here! She should not be where her

former husband is, isn't it Prabhupada? You should tell her to leave

Vrndavana!

 

Prabhupada replied.

 

"She is my like my daughter, so how can I tell her to leave Vrndavana and

miss hearing the lectures...just because you are agitated by her?" Then he

pointed his finger accusing that foolish disciple.."you should be anasakta

(detached) why *this one* among so many women is agitating you." Then

silence from that man..."Because you had sex with *this one* therefore she

is disturbing your mind, that is *your* defect, you must become anasakta!"

 

That is why Kasyapa said, 6.1.40 "This woman, my wife, has adopted a means

that follows her nature, and therefore she is not to be blamed. But I am a

man. Therefore, all condemnation upon me! I am not at all conversant with

what is good for me, since I could not control my senses."

 

In that vein Prabhupada says in 6.18.41 Purport:

 

"Sometimes our Krsna consciousness movement is criticized for mingling men

and women, but Krsna consciousness is meant for anyone. Whether one is a man

or woman does not matter. Lord Krsna personally says, striyo vaisyas tatha

sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim: whether one is a woman, sudra or vaisya,

not to speak of being a brahmana or ksatriya, everyone is fit to return

home, back to Godhead, if he strictly follows the instructions of the

spiritual master and sastra. We therefore request all the members of the

Krsna consciousness movement-both men and women-not to be attracted by

bodily features but only to be attracted by Krsna. Then everything will be

all right. Otherwise there will be danger."

 

Do you think now that after 23 years of publishing these SB purports should

be re-written to remove all such "uncomfortable" references to Women in

Prabhupada's books?

 

Prabhupada wrote what was the truth, not to even half compromise or try to

pacify the USA or European materialistic so-called liberated feminists (such

as the female journalist in the Mini skirt at the Philadelphia airport in

July 4-5, 1973 who challenged Him.) Such people on the bodily conception

were certainly there when he wrote those purports.

 

Women, like men, have conditioning born of their nature. No one should be

confortable or happy with that, saying "oh well what can be done?".

 

But by Krsna Consciousness, one explain things nicely and help people to

rise up the Vasudeva platform of vaisnava understanding and gradually such

sincere souls *must* rise up above those upadhi's and go humbly towards

Anartha nivritti, Ruci ashakti, Bhava and Prema.

 

Kasyapa took the positive side of his ill-minded wife's chastity to her

husband to turn her towards Vaisnavism and then that was Her credit that she

became purified by dilligently remaining chaste to her Husbands KC

perspective.

 

And so similarly, an advanced Vaisnavi can turn the mind of her errant

husband to Krsna's feet by her determination to follow her Guru,(I've seen).

 

When a Brahmacari sees a foolish male, or a woman that he feels he can't

purify by giving Krsna, then through this verse he laments the unfortunate

jiva conditioned in that body and Prays humbly, " Oh Lord, purify me, don't

let me fall like that in my next birth!"

 

This is the glory of this sloka. It is indeed great. It condemns bad

behaviour and promotes good behaviour. It is quite quotable but again parts

of it must be used selectively according to audience.

 

> I love them all! And yes! I *do* quote them all, and even the one about

> women, after all (understandably) as a Brahmacari I don't have to *love*

> the unpleasant strange side of the opposite sex.

>

> but then again, women don't have to like us either, (if the mothers don't

> want to offer us charity for some reason or other while the brahmacaries

> go on madhukari). That's their free will, too!

 

jatau jatau visnu-bhakto bhaveyam

 

Prabhupada's books help us firm up our determination to get Prema bhakti.

Which only comes after Anartha nivriti, the destruction of our bodily

conception of life. AS Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said,'First anartha

nivritti, then artha pravritti"

 

Our real business is to drink the nectar of Krsna Katha in Prabhupada's

books *in their entirety* and memorize it and discuss it happily with all

devotees.

 

We should not submit to westernization of male-female roles if they will

compromise our Krsna Consciousness progression.

 

Mataji, I have invested 3 hours of my time clarifying this. I hope that the

above description with quotes better clarifies your understanding of this

verse, as I've tried to put it in a proper respectful, yet truthful

perspective.

>

KK Mataji, perhaps you and I have never met personally. Dhyana Kunda mata

*has* and her husband know me reasonably well, since I've understood by your

previous postings that you rever her-- let her tell you about my mood in

regards to vaisnavi's.

 

Additionally, if you like--you may also correspond with any mataji (like

Narayani, Daivishakti) or even any of the younger mataji's in the gurukula

here in Vrndavana to verify their opinion--if I respect or offend Vaisnavi's

or not in my classes.

 

Yet, I must be doing something right because they still are kind enough to

grace my classes and attend it, they also ask me nice questions at the end

too.

 

Naturally, If they felt *so* uncomfortable they would not be steadily

attending.

 

Regards, YS

 

MMDASbr

[Guest guest]

> On Radha Damodar TSKP, I remember the Prabhupada story told to us:

> > Once the women went to Prabhupada complaining, "They are not treating us

> > like Mata-ji (Mother)."

> >

> > Prabhupada told them (mind you, I got this second hand):

> >

> > "Well if you behaive like a mataji they will treat you like their

> > mataji, but if you behaive like a girl-friend, you can't expect the

> > honor 'their'matajis deserve to get."

>

> This is found in Bhurijana prabhu's My Glorious Master book. I can give

> you the exact page a bit later.

>

> Your servant,

> Madana-mohana das

 

Yes I've seen that quote too there, it's on page 282. Bhurijan Prabhu's

remembers Prabhupada distinctly saying, "Yes the men do not treat the women

as mothers. Nor do the women ast like mothers. Neither do they dress as

mothers."

 

So one's behaviour must reflect one's education from the guru and previous

acarya's then respect will naturally accrue to the devotees who practice

what is preached. If bahaviour is otherwise, who'll give respect? One must

earn it.

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

> I added Raktambar and Ramakanta Prabhus to this because it seems that with

> multi-receiver texts, every time it is sent separately to a new receiver,

> it is again sent to the old receivers. If Dravida, Ekanatha and other

> Prabhus listed as receivers got this text now at least three times, please

> let us know and then Raktambar and Ramakanta Prabhus can work on fixing

> this bug.

 

They are not resent to the old receivers.

 

Your servant,

Raktambara das

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