ganges or Yamuna, how is gutter water transcendental?

[Guest guest]

Mahamantra Prabhuji,

 

Dandavats. Jaya Prabhupada!

 

Sorry to have taken so long with this, but before I even had

a chance to look for it, I came across that same verse I had mentioned

earlier about the transcendental purity of the Ganga:

 

> > > Sometimes it is said that once even gutter water

> > > flows into the Ganges, it too becomes the Ganges. But if I've been

> > > holding a misconception about this for so many years, I'd really be

> > > grateful if someone can authoritatively relieve me of my illusion.

Thanks.

> > Pamditji prabhu..Where is *that* said? I'm very curious to know if you have

> > any sloka's to that effect. Living as I do in Vrndavana, I do city

parikrama

> > quite regularly *almost daily*.

> > I see many people disregarding the runoff at Kesi ghata to bathe anyway,

but

> > other's go upstream to try to avoid the direct hit with the floating

stools.

> > This even though the water having come from Delhi undoubtedly *must* have

> > had some other contact with such stools from Delhi hutment colonies of

> > disrespectful hindu's and Muslims, christians etc.

> > Who's right?

 

In this issue, I'll go with the Siddhanta-rahasyam, text eight,

which is included as one of the SoDaza-granthAH (sixteen treatises) by

Vallabhacarya (by the way, these have recently been translated by James

Redington):

 

sevakAnAM yathA loke

vyavahAraH prasidhyati ||

tathA kAryaM samarpyaiva

sarveSAM brahmatA tataH || 7 ||

 

gaGgAtvaM sarva-doSANAM

guNa-doSAdivarNanA |

gaGAtvena nirUpyA syAt

tadvad atrApi caiva hi || 8 ||*

"One must dedicate oneself and one's belongings to ShrI KRSNa

just as, in everyday life, a servant puts himself entirely at the service

of his employer. Evrything that is dedicated to KRSNa becomes Divine in

nature in just the same way that all the waters, both those that were pure

and those that were impure, which enter the GangA become part of the

GangA and so share the sacred essence of the GangA; the recieving of

offerings by ShrI KRSNa is just like the receiving of waters by the GangA,

for in both cases the result is the same."*

 

 

This is of course only implicit evidence, but it's still pretty strong:

Vallabha also claims (in text one) that Lord Krishna personally spoke it

to him at midnight on Pavitra Ekadashi, in the month of Shravan, on the

bank of the Yamuna at Gokula, and his servant Damodara dasa is said to

have heard the Lord speak as well. :-)

In summary, the Siddhanta-rahasya says that initiation (which

Shri Govardhana-natha is said to have at that time ordered Vallabha to

offer others) purifies jivas of all five kinds of faults (viz., those born

of time, place, nature, association, and contact). Initiation is actually

atma-nivedanam. It's absolutely necessary, for Bhagavan will not accept

anything from those without any sponsor, while everyone must first offer

everything to the Lord. Whatever is so offered to the Lord becomes

nondifferent from the Lord, as all things flowing into the Ganga become

Ganga.**

 

 

* This translation is by Dr. Richard Barz, in his _The Bhakti Sect of

Vallabhacarya- (Faridabad: Thompson Press, 1976), pg. 18.

 

** Here is how the Hindi translator in my edition explains these verses:

"Just as without elaborating all the good and bad things which flow into

the Ganga (all are simply Ganga-ized [GaGgApan hI]--i.e., all) are thus

determined as the Ganga--in that exact same way, so is the self (once

having taken initiation). The essential thing is this--by contact with

Gangaji, all sorts of elements flowing into the Ganga become the Ganga; in

just that manner, all sorts of things (padArtha-s), upon being offered in

the dedication of one's self (Atma-nivedana), attain their innate quality

as spiritual existence (brahma-bhAva)."

 

Take it for what it's worth. I hope this helps somewhat. Hare

Krishna.

 

Your humble servant,

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Dear Mukunda Datta das. Jaya Prabhupada.

 

Thanks for finding out this sloka evidence in support of your original

statements. It does deepen appreciation of the tolerance we must develop

while trying to understand and discover the spiritual nature of the dhama's

that are manifest on this planet.

 

That the verse is especially spoken about the Ganga is interesting, as we

all know (while bathing) what we unavoidably see on the rocks right near the

ganga at Mayapura so this verse, while not condoning the aparadhas and bad

bahavior of the dvipada pasus, gives some solace to the minds of sad

devotees who are forced to witness it.

 

I see this is Krsna's kindness in all ways.

 

> sevakAnAM yathA loke

> vyavahAraH prasidhyati ||

> tathA kAryaM samarpyaiva

> sarveSAM brahmatA tataH || 7 ||

>

> gaGgAtvaM sarva-doSANAM

> guNa-doSAdivarNanA |

> gaGAtvena nirUpyA syAt

> tadvad atrApi caiva hi || 8 ||*

>

> "One must dedicate oneself and one's belongings to ShrI KRSNa

> just as, in everyday life, a servant puts himself entirely at the service

> of his employer. Evrything that is dedicated to KRSNa

 

Mostly Understood to mean only offering satvika upacaras favourable things,

(anukula) am I right? Of course, on the oposite end of the spectrum even

PUtanA and AghAsura, manigriva and Nalakuvera became purified and elevated

to the Lords association by coming in contact with the Lord, despite sinful

lives and tendencies. re: SB 10.12.39, 3.23.23, 10.10.42.

 

> becomes Divine in

> nature in just the same way that all the waters, both those that were pure

> and those that were impure, which enter the GangA become part of the GangA

> and so share the sacred essence of the GangA; the recieving of offerings

> by ShrI KRSNa is just like the receiving of waters by the GangA, for in

> both cases the result is the same."*

>

>

> This is of course only implicit evidence, but it's still pretty strong:

> Vallabha also claims (in text one) that Lord Krishna personally spoke it

> to him at midnight on Pavitra Ekadashi, in the month of Shravan, on the

> bank of the Yamuna at Gokula, and his servant Damodara dasa is said to>

have heard the Lord speak as well. :-)

 

Although the verse was about the Ganga by speaking it to Vallabhacarya while

he was on the BAnk of the Yamuna, it appears the Lord intended it to be

applicable for all rivers.

 

Interesting that *the vision* was substantiated by another devotee present,

like Bhaktivinoda thakura and his son seeing the darshana of the Yogapitha

temple from the rani dharmashala.

 

> In summary, the Siddhanta-rahasya says that initiation (which Shri

> Govardhana-natha is said to have at that time ordered Vallabha to offer

> others) purifies jivas of all five kinds of faults (viz., those born of

> time, place, nature, association, and contact). Initiation is actually

> atma-nivedanam. It's absolutely necessary, for Bhagavan will not accept

> anything from those without any sponsor, while everyone must first offer

> everything to the Lord.

 

interesting comments about initiation (diksa).

 

Whatever is so offered to the Lord becomes

> nondifferent from the Lord, as all things flowing into the Ganga become

> Ganga.**

 

Yes, I have to admit defeat in this regard. Yet still it is hard to bathe

right near the drain, but I see that 100-200 meters away at Kesi Ghata they

do so witout too much worry. The faith is that Krsna and Yamunamayi will

purify them and protect them from possible communicable diseases somehow.

 

Sometimes that shraddha (in these cases) has to be extraordinarily so firm.

This in the face of all odds Like Pisima (Bhavatarini) who gave her son

Madana charanamrta and the boy was cured of Cholera as a result of her firm

shraddha.

 

AcintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tAMs tarkeNa yojayet: the Supreme Lord and His

form, name, pastimes and paraphernalia are inconceivable to nondevotees, and

one should not try to understand such realities simply by logical arguments.

They will not bring one to the right conclusion about the Absolute Truth.

 

============ REF. SB 6.9.36

 

The Skanda PurANa confirms, acintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tAMs tarkeNa yojayet:

“Matters inconceivable to a common man should not be a subject for

argument.”

 

============ REF. Ädi 5.41

 

 

 

 

 

> * This translation is by Dr. Richard Barz, in his _The Bhakti Sect of

> Vallabhacarya- (Faridabad: Thompson Press, 1976), pg. 18.

>

> ** Here is how the Hindi translator in my edition explains these verses:

> "Just as without elaborating all the good and bad things which flow into

> the Ganga (all are simply Ganga-ized [GaGgApan hI]--i.e., all) are thus

> determined as the Ganga--in that exact same way, so is the self (once

> having taken initiation). The essential thing is this--by contact with

> Gangaji, all sorts of elements flowing into the Ganga become the Ganga; in

> just that manner, all sorts of things (padArtha-s), upon being offered in

> the dedication of one's self (Atma-nivedana), attain their innate quality

> as spiritual existence (brahma-bhAva)."

>

> Take it for what it's worth. I hope this helps somewhat. Hare

> Krishna.

 

Thanks a lot, Mukunda DAtta ji. This verses *do* bathe my intellect

somewhat. Nonetheless for the sake of mental peace, reverence, tranquil

spiritual contemplation on Sri Gangadevi or Yamunadevi, (and common

decency,) I *still happily support* bathing in the Yamuna bit downstream one

direction or the other away from the drainpipe . I hope no despite the

shining shastric evidence Mukunda Datta has so finely given us all, one will

fault my support in that regard.

 

ys MMDASBR

[Guest guest]

Pranams. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bhakti Purusottama Swami (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

> > water is forbidden by sastra. However, that passing stool near the bank of

> > the Ganges was common practice at the time of Lord Caitanya and may have

> > been done by Sanatana Goswami is suggested by the following.

> >

> > Sanatana replied, "There is no danger. The Nawab has gone to the south. If

> > he returns, tell him that Sanatana went to pass stool near the bank of the

> > Ganges and that as soon as he saw the Ganges, he jumped in.

> >

> It is not necessarily mean that sanatana goswami was using bank of Ganges

> for nature call . May be he told like this just to cheat them.

>

It's said that Sethji Phundanlal Shah, who built the celebrated

"Shahji mandir" in Vrindaban, never ever soiled the dhama with his own

waste; he had pots imported from outside of Vraja (i.e., made with the

clay of some other place), and used those for evacuating. He daily

disposed of these by sending them outside of Vraja. He and his brother

Kundanlal (known as Lalitamadhuri and Lalitakishori, respectively)

practiced extreme devotional service in other ways too.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Mahamantra (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

> Dear Mukunda Datta das. Jaya Prabhupada.

Dandavats. Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

> Thanks for finding out this sloka evidence in support of your original

> statements. It does deepen appreciation of the tolerance we must develop

> while trying to understand and discover the spiritual nature of the dhama's

> that are manifest on this planet.

It's also noteworthy that evidently such spiritual potency, as

Gurudasa once put it, "renders physical laws elastic." But just how much

can we strain this principle? I don't know. It's undeniable that the

Ganga cannot be polluted, but the abuse of these sacred rivers is quite

visible to everyone; hence the work of the reformers I mentioned earlier.

 

 

> That the verse is especially spoken about the Ganga is interesting, as we

> all know (while bathing) what we unavoidably see on the rocks right near the

> ganga at Mayapura so this verse, while not condoning the aparadhas and bad

> bahavior of the dvipada pasus, gives some solace to the minds of sad

> devotees who are forced to witness it.

I don't see any harm in the efforts of Veer Bhadra Mishra and

others who want people to stop putting their needless pollutants into

the Ganga (whether directly or indirectly), except that they also tend

to reinforce people's mundane view of the Ganga, etc. Adopting others'

arguments though they don't stress sanctity and respect may end up a

troublesome or counterproductive compromise, at least as far as we're

concerned.

 

 

> > "One must dedicate oneself and one's belongings to ShrI KRSNa

> > just as, in everyday life, a servant puts himself entirely at the service

> > of his employer. Evrything that is dedicated to KRSNa

> Mostly Understood to mean only offering satvika upacaras favourable things,

> (anukula) am I right?

I would think so, since the finest things are meant for Krishna. The

first order of business is to inspire people to offer things to Krishna at

all (yena kena prakarena, etc.).

 

 

Of course, on the oposite end of the spectrum even

> PUtanA and AghAsura, manigriva and Nalakuvera became purified and elevated

> to the Lords association by coming in contact with the Lord, despite sinful

> lives and tendencies. re: SB 10.12.39, 3.23.23, 10.10.42.

Thanks for these references. They remind me of something else.

I've always been a bit mystified by that verse in the Bhagavatam where

Naradamuni(?) says he considers the demons to be even more fortunate than

the devotees. Have you some insights to share on this? Unfortunately I

don't remember the exact verse offhand.

 

 

> Although the verse was about the Ganga by speaking it to Vallabhacarya while

> he was on the BAnk of the Yamuna, it appears the Lord intended it to be

> applicable for all rivers.

That's a good observation too. To me, the very fact that he so

easily made this analogy implies that this was a more widely recognized

principle in Vallabhacarya's time than it is now, and that it was enough

in currency that he could support his assertion by referring to it. But

for that matter, Srila Rupa Gosvami did likewise in Upadesamrta (6).

 

 

> AcintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tAMs tarkeNa yojayet: the Supreme Lord and His

> form, name, pastimes and paraphernalia are inconceivable to nondevotees, and

> one should not try to understand such realities simply by logical arguments.

> They will not bring one to the right conclusion about the Absolute Truth.

There are several other bhedabheda schools, but the inconceivable

potency is the salient feature of ours.

 

 

> > Take it for what it's worth. I hope this helps somewhat. Hare

> > Krishna.

> Thanks a lot, Mukunda DAtta ji. This verses *do* bathe my intellect

> somewhat. Nonetheless for the sake of mental peace, reverence, tranquil

> spiritual contemplation on Sri Gangadevi or Yamunadevi, (and common

> decency,) I *still happily support* bathing in the Yamuna bit downstream one

> direction or the other away from the drainpipe.

Frankly, I can sympathize with you. I might speak differently

if I actually lived on the banks of the Yamuna!

 

Your servant,

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

Jai Srila Prabhupada. All glories to the pundits on this issue.

I probably am like a lame duck in the association of beautiful swam like

vaisnava's and shouldnt even attempt to comment as I just briefly glanced at

this series of conversation and may speak out of turn. Please forgive me.

However I will dare mention a few things as I find this an interesrting

topic.

1 Srila Prabhupada remarked that when he was a boy that his father and him

would bathe in the ganga (in calcutta the mouth of ganga). often there would

be stools floating and they would just splash it out of the way. He also

mentioned one old gentleman who would regularly drink the ganga and any

desease he would get would be cured easily.

 

2 we all know the quote by Rupa goswami about the foam on the banks of the

ganges and one should not think that the ganges is polluted.

 

3. When Kaliya serpaent was in the Yamuna his pulluting the yamuna was so

bad that the trees on the banks would die and birds flying over would just

drop out of the sky dead. Krsna himself became the supreme ecologist and rid

the yamuna of the polluting element.

 

 

Jaya Govinda dasa

[Guest guest]

FYI...

 

 

 

http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/regional/uttar_pradesh/20000928-0.html

 

 

Ganga, Yamuna need massive clean-up before Kumbh Mela

28th Sept 2000 17.07 IST

 

Taking a holy dip at the ''Triveni Sangam'', the confluence of the Ganga,

Yamuna and the mythical Saraswati, may not be a good idea from the

hygienic point of view.

 

Discharge of sewage water from several drains has led to increased

pollution of the Ganga and Yamuna, making the Sangam at Allahabad unfit

for the auspicious bath on the occasion of Kumbh Mela early next year,

according to a non-government organization.

 

'Ecofriends', a city-based NGO striving to bring a pollutant-free Ganga

back to the Kanpur ghats, recently conducted a survey which revealed that

57 drains carried 210 MLD (million litres a day) of waste water into the

two rivers.

 

The discharge included a deadly cocktail of waste materials and chemicals

(137 MLD) that reached Yamuna through twelve drains, while 34 drains

flowed into the Ganges to contribute the remaining 73 MLD of waste

water. No data was collected about eleven streams as they were not being

covered under the second phase of the Ganga Action Plan.

 

About the 46 rivers being taken into consideration in the second phase of

the action plan, the local civic bodies had completely trapped the water

in 39 drains and partially in one, according to Ecofriends Executive

Secretary Rakesh Jaiswal.

 

''Interception and diversion of 120 MLD drain water and treatment of 150

MLD of water remains to be done if the water is to turn fit for people to

take their holy dip at the Kumbh,'' he told UNI.

 

Mr. Jaiswal said that it was none other than the Ministry of Environment

and Forest that had certified the water at the Sangam as unfit for

bathing.

 

''Information available on the ministry's website grades the water (both

in the upstream Rasoolabad and downstream Sangam) as belonging to 'E'

category. That is, water which is fit only for irrigation or industrial

cooling,'' he said, pointing out that the desired class of water for

outdoor bathing is 'B'.

 

Mr. Jaiswal recalled that the quality of water in Allahabad was 'D' in

1996-97. The deterioration in class took place despite the implementation

of the first phase of the Ganga Action Plan.

 

The NGO chief maintained that the government could at least go for

short-term measures to ensure cleanliness of the Sangam waters by

temporary closure or diversion of the polluted drains. Adequate

chlorination of water reaching the Allahabad ghats -- a suggestion raised

last year as well -- could also help improve the state, he added.

 

''Imagine the kind of water the devout would be carrying back as 'Ganga

jal' in cans... It is irresponsible on the part of the government to be

lackadaisical with stopping sewage water reaching the Ganga on the one

hand, and organizing the mela on the other,'' he observed.

 

A foreign expert, currently staying here to oversee the Ganga Pollution

Control Campaign, shared the sentiments of the NGO. ''It is a criminal

offence to organize a mass-bathing event when so much of raw sewage is

being discharged into the Ganges,'' Mr. Reing Sekhuis, an engineer from

Holland said.

 

He also expressed surprise over the authorities not letting the people

know about any steps they were taking to fight out the health and

pollution threats. ''It is high time the government authorities worked

with the public to ensure an clean Kumbh'', he added.

 

-UNI

[Guest guest]

> He daily disposed of these by sending them outside of Vraja.

 

Hopefully, he didn't engage Brijabasis to carry his pots.

 

pcd

[Guest guest]

From Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.21.31, purport:

 

"In India, one can actually see that a person who takes a bath

in the Ganges waters daily is almost free from all kinds of diseases. A

very respectable brahmana in Calcutta never took a doctor's medicine. Even

though he sometimes felt sick, he would not accept medicine from the

physician but would simply drink Ganges water, and he was always cured

within a very short time. The glories of Ganges water are known to Indians

and to ourselves also. The River Ganges flows by Calcutta. Sometimes

within the water there are many stools and other dirty things which are

washed away from neighboring mills and factories, but still thousands of

men take baths in the Ganges water, and they are very healthy as well as

spiritually inclined. That is the effect of Ganges water. The Ganges is

glorified because it emanates from the toes of the lotus feet of the

Lord."

[Guest guest]

Just like in the Ganges water you will sometimes find the stool is

floating there. But that does not mean the Ganges water has become polluted.

It is practical. In Calcutta, in our childhood, I was taking bath in the

Ganges with my father. Many gentlemen regularly takes bath in the Ganges.

And the modern scientific method is: all the garbage, throw into the river.

So we were taking bath, and here is some stool floating. So we used to drive

away the stool and take bath. The stool is unable to pollute the Ganges

water. You will find in India still. The advanced gentlemen... "The dirty

water," they say, Ganges water. But you will find practically, that anyone

who is taking regular bathing in this dirty water, he is healthy. You will

find. It is very healthy. No disease touches him ordinarily. Of course, the

body is susceptible to disease, but generally, those who are taking regular

bath in the Ganges water, they are not diseased. You will find it

practically still. So as the stool floating in the Ganges water cannot

pollute the Ganges water, similarly, a devotee, even if you find

scientifically that he is crazy or he is diseased, that is not impediment.

 

(Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los

Angeles)

[Guest guest]

From Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.6.19:

 

yA vai lasac-chrI-tulasI-vimizra-

kRSNAGghri-reNv-abhyadhikAmbu-netrI |

punAti lokAn ubhayatra sezAn

kas tAM na seveta mariSyamANaH ||

 

"The river [Ganges, by which the King sat to fast] carries the most

auspicious water, which is mixed with the dust of the lotus feet of the

Lord and tulas leaves. Therefore that water sanctifies the three worlds

inside and outside and even sanctifies Lord Siva and other

demigods. Consequently everyone who is destined to die must take shelter

of this river."

 

Purport

"Maharaja Pariksit, just after receiving the news of his death

within seven days, at once retired from family life and shifted himself to

the sacred bank of the Yamuna River. Generally it is said that the King

took shelter on the bank of the Ganges, but according to Srila Jiva

Gosvami, the King took shelter on the bank of the Yamuna. Srila Jiva

Gosavmi's statement appears to be more accurate because of the

geographical situation. Maharaja Pariksit resided in his capital

Hastinapura, situated near present Delhi, and the River Yamuna flows down

past the city. Naturally the King would take shelter of the River Yamuna

because she was flowing past his palace door. And as far as sanctity is

concerned, the River Yamuna is more directly connected with Lord Krsna

than the Ganges. The Lord sanctified the River Yamuna from the beginning

of His transcendental pastimes in the world. While His father Vasudeva was

crossing the Yamuna with the baby Lord Krsna for a safe place at

Gokula on the other bank of the river from Mathura, the Lord fell down in

the river, and by the dust of His lotus feet the river at once became

sanctified. It is especially mentioned herein that Maharaja Pariksit took

shelter of that particular river which is beautifully flowing, carrying

the dust of the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, mixed with tulasi leaves. Lord

Krsna's lotus feet are always besmeared with the tulasi leaves, and thus

as soon as His lotus feet contact the water of the Ganges and the Yamuna,

the rivers become at once sanctified. The Lord, however, contacted the

River Yamuna more than the Ganges. According to the Varaha Purana, as

quoted by Srila Jiva Gosvami, there is no difference between the water of

the Ganges and the Yamuna, but when the water of the Ganges is sanctified

one hundred times, it is called the Yamuna. Similarly, it is said in the

scriptures that one thousand names of Visnu are equal to one name of Rama,

and three names of Lord Rama are equal to one name of Krsna."