Guest guest Posted November 12, 2000 Report Share Posted November 12, 2000 At 08:46 PM 11/12/00 +0800, Bhadra Govinda (das) JPS (Singapore - SG) wrote: >Do not know if the exact story is there but the principle " A disciple >should be fixed in the conclusion that the spiritual master cannot be >subject to criticism and should never be considered equal to a common man." >is there, in a Bengali poem "Even if I see that Lord Nityananda has entered >a liquor shop, I shall not be diverted from my conclusion that Nityananda >Raya is the Supreme Personality of Godhead". Unfortunately, this kind of thinking, while sastrically correct, has caused problems throughout ISKCON's history, when it's been applied. E.g when Hansadutta went into a liquor shop, his disciples were convinced this was somehow OK. It was also similar beliefs that allowed Kirtanananda to continue with his harmful activities for as long as he did. We can't surrender our intelligence, just because we accept a guru. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 On 12 Nov 2000, Madhusudani Radha wrote: Madhusudani Mataji wrote: > Unfortunately, this kind of thinking, while sastrically correct, has caused > problems throughout ISKCON's history, when it's been applied. E.g when > Hansadutta went into a liquor shop, his disciples were convinced this was > somehow OK. It was also similar beliefs that allowed Kirtanananda to > continue with his harmful activities for as long as he did. We can't > surrender our intelligence, just because we accept a guru. It will be more unfortunate and more harmful if every disciple suspects his/her guru in good standing, citing your above examples. I agree with you that blind faith is not good. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 > Madhusudani Mataji wrote: > > Unfortunately, this kind of thinking, while sastrically > correct, has caused > > problems throughout ISKCON's history, when it's been applied. E.g when > > Hansadutta went into a liquor shop, his disciples were > convinced this was > > somehow OK. It was also similar beliefs that allowed Kirtanananda to > > continue with his harmful activities for as long as he did. We can't > > surrender our intelligence, just because we accept a guru. O, certainly we must! More so, we should surrender our SOULS at the lotus feet of Sri Guru. Your concerns are very valid and important but all such consideration should be done BEFORE accepting a guru. After the acceptance any such thought is Guru-aparadha and Nama-aparadha and will most certainly damage one's spiritual life. Guru is not just some guy we happen to respect and like, therefore we become his disciples. Sri Guru is sakshaddhari, he is like Lord Hari Himself! And he should be treated as such. If one can't treat his/her guru in such a way, then why accepting him in the first place? If one made a mistake by accepting a wrong person as guru, it must be corrected, although it is a very tragic situation and I wish nobody went through such ordeal of "changing" a guru. But if we find ourselves in such situation and are serious about our spiritual lives, we must act firmly. Gurudev is Lord Nityananda Himself. He is so merciful that He will help a sincere person even if such a person worships Him in someone who He is not. Sincerity is the key: He will appear before the sevak whose heart is open and free from offensive thinking. Do believe in miracles, please!!! They happen every day. We just have to open our eyes and see! It is said in our Sastra that by the grace of Sri Krishna we get Sri Guru and by the grace of Sri Guru we get Sri Krishna. This formula is universal and it always works. We just have to pray hard enough... Hamsadutas and Kirtananandas are, indeed, very big misfortune for those whose lives were affected by them. But one should move on with his/her spiritual life, anyway. We make so many mistakes, so many bad things happen to us... But we must move on! We should understand the principles of Guru-tattva and pray to Sri Krishna, Who is in our heart, to apply His universal formula and save us. He is the Chaitya Guru, He is always near and willing to help. He will answer a sincere prayer and appear as Mahanta Guru before us, no doubt about that! But one whose heart is contaminated with offences, envy and false pride is unable to pray... That's why it's better to over-respect someone than under-respect. If we have the proper understanding of Guru-tattva we will know how to judge the situation. We'll know what to do right away. Param Pujyapad Srila Prabhupada has explained Guru-tattva in so many of his writings, which should be studied very carefully. Also Param Pujyapad Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja has masterfully and completely covered this topic in his book "Sri Guru and His Grace". One who has read this little book and understood it will never have any guru issues, problems or questions anymore! > It will be more unfortunate and more harmful if every disciple suspects > his/her guru in good standing, citing your above examples. That is true, indeed! Moreover, one's spiritual life will be completely destroyed if one thinks in that way. > I agree with you that blind faith is not good. Faith should not be blind. It should be complete. But that is only possible by the grace of Sri Guru. Your humble servant, Gauridas Adhikari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 At 11:38 PM 11/14/00 +0300, Gauridas Adhikari wrote: >O, certainly we must! More so, we should surrender our SOULS at the lotus >feet of Sri Guru. Your concerns are very valid and important but all such >consideration should be done BEFORE accepting a guru. After the acceptance >any such thought is Guru-aparadha and Nama-aparadha and will most certainly >damage one's spiritual life. Uh-oh. Tell that to the disciples of Kirtananda, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Jayatirtha et al. How could they have anticipated their deviations before taking initiation? Does that mean you think they should become fanatical zombies, refusing to see when their gurus misbehaved? Our source of evidence for appropriate behaviors is not guru-guru-guru, but rather guru-sadhu-sastra. If we see deviations - even in our gurus-, we have a duty to speak out (in a humble way of course), rather than assuming that gurus drinking alcohol, having sex, breaking the law etc are somehow just performing some kind of transcendental lila. If we don't conntinue to use our intelligence, we deserve to be labeled a destructive cult indeed. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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