RE: Vote #1

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishna Dharma Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

You wrote:

 

>Here's another quote to end with, to back up my argument that education and

>empowerment is better than control and legislation: (it's a good one for

>the pro-varnashrama argument too)

 

Actually it not a question of which is better. My understanding is control

and legislation are as much required as education and empowerment. Both

have to be there.

 

Even though we may try to educate and empower, there will always be a

certain amount of miscreants, in all ages at all times. So to punish the

miscreants, we need control and legislation.

 

There will always be Pandavas and Kauravas. One can educate and empower

Pandava like people, but there has to be control and legislation for Kaurava

like people.

 

Everyone who takes a driving licence actually goes through the training and

education and is empowered to drive when he is issued a driving licence.

That does not mean that everyone will follow the rules and regulations as

taught and educated, prior to issuing licence. There will be some one who

misuses his *independance*, and break the traffic rules. That is why some

legislation and traffic contol is required.

 

The same is true even in the driving school. There will be some humble and

sincere students, and some not so humble and not so sincere students. When

the school/teacher is imparting education, there has to be some control and

legislation in the class. Otherwise the a few bad students, will disrupt

the majority in the class.

 

You quote Srila Prabhupada (as below) to support your above claim.

 

>"Simply enforcing laws and ordinances cannot make the citizens obedient and

>lawful. That is impossible. Throughout the entire world there are so many

>states, legislative assemblies and parliaments, but still the citizens are

>rogues and thieves. Good citizenship, therefore, cannot be enforced; the

>citizens must be trained. As there are schools and colleges to train

>students to become chemical engineers, lawyers or specialists in many other

>departments of knowledge, there must be schools and colleges to train

>students to become brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras, brahmacaris,

>grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis."

>SB 9.10.50

 

What Srila Prabhupada is telling is only legislation and control are not

sufficient. Education and training are also required.

 

I agree if you had said that With proper education and training there will

be less law and order problem.

 

Also there is already a superficial varnasrama in all places and in all

ages. What Prabhupad means is if we give them spiritual knowledge as given

is Bg and SB and make them understand "I am not this body. I am a spirit

soul. I am part and parcel of krishna. My duty is to serve Him", then

automatically they will fall into Daiva Varnasrama, according to their Guna

& Karma which is anyway already present in them. We don't have to train

someone in Guna and Karma, which is a natural quality, which is already

there in them. We can train some one in spiritual knowledge which is very

much lacking in Kali Yuga.

 

This should also answer Srirama Prabhu's query to a certain extant.

 

Srirama Prabhu's query:

 

>However, what is a

> young devotee to do when there hasn't been enough experience to be able to

> judge according to sadhu, sastra and guru? Should one fall back on

> whatever sense of right and wrong one had before coming to Krishna

> consciousness? Or speculate on what might be considered authorized if one

> had better knowledge of the standards? Or follow direction, more or less

> blindly?

>

> Your servant,

> Sri Rama das

 

Srila Prabhupad said, that one must atleast know what is gold, otherwise he

will get cheated by a blacksmith. Srila Prabhupad says every one is

cheated, many times, in many life times, before they finally come to the

right place and person. Second most important thing is one's sincerety. If

one is sincere, even if one is cheated many times, Krishna will finally

guide him to a bonafide Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupad says, if one is

sincere, Krishna will send him a bonafide spiritual master.

 

However Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, one has to be a bhagyavan, or fortunate.

 

Brahmanda Bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

Guru Krishna Prasade Paye Bhakti Lata Bija.

 

One has to be simply sincere and fortunate.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

If the time is ripe to introduce varnasrama in Iskcon for the GBC, we

should ponder on the thought that it would be incorrect to introduce it only

for the GBC - it should be for the temples also.

 

In that case, would sudras, vaisyas or ksatriyas find a place in temples? As

per their natures, it seems unsuitable for any of these three varnas to live

in temples, subsisting on charitable donations.

 

Ksatriyas who wish to serve Krsna, should earn their own living by

leadership, living outside, and use their leadership capability to run the

temples via an organisation like a temple council.

 

Vaisyas, similarly, should live outside, running businesses or protecting

cows, and donate their surplus money for preaching and running the temples.

 

Sudras, living outside, may be employed by the temple council to do work for

the temple, or, if working elsewhere, may donate free labour to the temple

council.

 

The brahmanas, those who are peaceful, self controlled, austere, pure,

tolerant, honest, knowledgeable, wise, religious, would be the only temple

residents, No temple management worries for them, the other 3 varnas, living

outside, would take care of this. All the brahmanas would have to do is

deity worship, preaching, studying of scriptures. (All their Com messages

would be filled with love and happiness!)

 

All problems of temple life would disappear.

 

If we really believe in varnasrama for the GBC, we cannot leave the temples

in their current mixed up state, which seems to be the cause of all the

miseries in Iskcon.

[Guest guest]

Vijaya-venugopala wrote:

 

|If the time is ripe to introduce varnashrama in ISKCON for the GBC, we

should ponder on |the thought that it would be incorrect to introduce it

only for the GBC - it should be |for the temples also.

 

While it is appropriate to seek a top-to-bottom varnashrama

implementation, probably it would be too big a mouthful to chew at this

time. So we are starting at the most logical place: the top. If ISKCON's top

leaders are functioning under varnashrama principles, not only will they be

setting the proper example, but they will be much more able to assist the

rest of the Society in also doing so.

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

 

[srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net], or

[sriramadas (AT) home (DOT) com]

[http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

[Guest guest]

>If ISKCON's top

>leaders are functioning under varnashrama principles, not only will they be

>setting the proper example, but they will be much more able to assist the

>rest of the Society in also doing so.

 

So will the age factor (50 years - In India Government service personnel

retire at the age of 58 from active service, I think it is the same in most

countries) of Grihasthas taking Vanaprastha be considered at the TOP.

 

Talking about *TOP* we must take temple presidents, atleast if not the whole

temple residents into consideration for our discussions, functioning under

varnasrama principles.

 

Can we expect, the GBC, and TPs to be between 25 and 50 years atleast in 2

years time or some target like that.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

> If the time is ripe to introduce varnasrama in Iskcon for the GBC, we

> should ponder on the thought that it would be incorrect to introduce it

> only for the GBC - it should be for the temples also.

 

The leaders should set the example for others to follow. One

can see this in practice. The disciples/followers of particular

gurus/leaders reflect the position of their guru/leader. If the

leader is for introducing VAD, so are his followers, and if he is

of "We don't need it" opinion then the same will be propagated by

his followers.

 

If the leaders show no real interest, it wouldn't happen. It will

simply remain as dead letters on the pages of Srila Prabhupada's

books.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

Ah , the old top or bottom argument. If anyone looked back a few years a go,

the raging debate in VAD conference was the top or bottom implementation

argument. I being firmly of the bottom up school of thought. all efforts at

reform in ISKCON since then, including rittvikism, are of the top down

theory. And where has it all gottne us? IMHO - nowhere.

 

To build a house - first a foundation needs to be had. I stipulate to modular

housing, but even before it can be functional, it needs to set on a

foundation. ISKCON has no real economic base. See Burke Rochford's analysis

of

what is lacking with the GBC. No economic base.

 

 

 

"Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote:

 

> Vijaya-venugopala wrote:

>

> |If the time is ripe to introduce varnashrama in ISKCON for the GBC, we

> should ponder on |the thought that it would be incorrect to introduce it

> only for the GBC - it should be |for the temples also.

>

> While it is appropriate to seek a top-to-bottom varnashrama

> implementation, probably it would be too big a mouthful to chew at this

> time. So we are starting at the most logical place: the top. If ISKCON's top

> leaders are functioning under varnashrama principles, not only will they be

> setting the proper example, but they will be much more able to assist the

> rest of the Society in also doing so.

>

> Your servant,

> Sri Rama das

>

> [srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net], or

> [sriramadas (AT) home (DOT) com]

> [http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

[Guest guest]

> Ah , the old top or bottom argument. If anyone looked back a few years a

> go, the raging debate in VAD conference was the top or bottom

> implementation argument. I being firmly of the bottom up school of

> thought. all efforts at reform in ISKCON since then, including

> rittvikism, are of the top down theory. And where has it all gottne us?

> IMHO - nowhere.

>

> To build a house - first a foundation needs to be had. I stipulate to

> modular housing, but even before it can be functional, it needs to set

> on a foundation. ISKCON has no real economic base. See Burke Rochford's

> analysis of

> what is lacking with the GBC. No economic base.

 

I agree, and I believe the economic problem could be solved if we had

empowered administrators supported by a varnasrama structured GBC. Natural

administrators are naturally good fund raisers. And if ISKCON had no guru

falldowns for the last two decades with a varnasrama structured GBC

administration ISKCON would currently be flourishing both materially and

spritiually. Money and the propers means to get money come when there is

proper credibility. Our credibility is at an all time low. If that can be

restored over say the next decade then I believe that such good credibility

will be the basis for establishing all kinds of stable, sustainable economic

bases for ISKCON. imho.

 

ys

 

ada