Thread 4: A prayer, ---honestly speaking

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes. Krishna Consciousness principles are very simple. It is not

> complicated like the other Dharmas, such as Varnasrama Dharma. In India

> when we go and preach to all those caste Brahmanas, ksatriyas, Vaisyas and

> Sudras, they think how can attaining love of God can be so simple. It

> cannot be. So they go on with their superficial varnasrama dharma

> principles. Srila Prabhupada finally had to go to USA, to convince these

> simple principles, as the Indian Varnasrama society totally rejected him.

 

Apparently, you are not really talking here about varnasrama dharma

that is being described in Srila Prabhupada's books and that he asked

his followers to *implement* in the world. "All those caste Brahmanas,

ksatriyas,...." means not daiva varnasrama dharma but asuric varnasrama

dharma. Let's not confuse something that has been rejected by our Acaryas

with something that has been recommended by them.

 

 

In any case, wether you are considering yourself to be transcendental

to "superficial varnasrama dharma principles", as I could understand

you are a family man, got a wife and children. So you got to follow

the prescribed duties for a grihasta anyway. And wether you consider

yourself above the designation of any of the four varnas, you still got

to earn your money in order to support your family by some mean. So in

order to achieve that, you got to fit in some system. I guess some kind

of a "karmi" system. Like everybody else, in this or that extent.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> What I am saying is we don't have to train someone in military art. There

> are many (Arjunas) people who are already trained in that. All we have to

> do is give them a Bhagavadgita As It Is and a Japamala.

 

 

"The varnasrama-dharma is prescribed for the civilized human being just to

train him to successfully terminate human life." SB 1.9.26

 

"The statements of Dhruva Maharaja indicate that unless a child is trained

according to his tendency, there is no possibility of his developing his

particular spirit. It was the duty of the spiritual master or teacher to

observe the psychological movement of a particular boy and thus train him in

a particular occupational duty. Dhruva Maharaja, having already been trained

in the ksatriya spirit, would not accept the brahminical philosophy."

Purport SB 4.8.36

 

"Just as the king has the right to keep his treasury confidential and

secret, the people should also keep their individual earnings a secret.

There is no fault in such dealings. The main point is that everyone should

be trained in the system of varnasrama-dharma so that the money is spent

only for good causes and nothing else." S.B. 4.16.10.

 

"One class of men (the brahmanas) must be intelligent and brahminically

qualified, another class must be trained in administrative work (ksatriya)

another in mercantile business (vaisya) and another simply in labor

(sudras). These four classes of men are already there according to nature,

but it is the governments duty to see that all four of these classes follow

the principles of their varnas methodically. This is called abhiraksana, or

protection." SB 4.29.81.

 

 

 

> For example if the bonafide Spiritual Master may tell some one to give up

> his job in a ugra karma factory and join the temple as a pujary, one must

> do that. He cannot say I am a Sudra and I cannot do a brahmana job. In

> another case if he tells some temple pujarys to go and find jobs, as there

> is no income coming to maintain the temple then one must go and find jobs,

> even in Ugra Karma factory. One cannot say I am a brahmana, and I do not

> want to do a sudra job and that is not my Dharma or vice versa. One must

> simply try to find out what Guru and krishna want. Srila Prabhupada said

> what ever is required has to be done.

 

 

"It was the duty of the spiritual master or teacher to observe the

psychological movement of a particular boy and thus train him in a

particular occupational duty. Dhruva Maharaja, having already been trained

in the ksatriya spirit, would not accept the brahminical philosophy."

Purport SB 4.8.36

 

 

 

> The only problem is they do not know how to please krishna. That

> is what ISKCON is supposed to do, to teach all these professors, teachers,

> policemen, military men, businessmen, labourers how to add Krishna to

> their lives, and plese Him.

 

"The varnasrama institution offers the perfect process for making one

eligible to return home back to Godhead, because the aim of every varna and

asrama is to please the Supreme Lord." SB 6.3.13

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper

execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is

no other way to satisfy the Lord." [Visnu Purana]

 

"In the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that one should

only work for satisfying Yajna or Visnu. The perfectional form of human

civilization, known as varnasrama-dharma, is specifically meant for

satisfying Visnu." Bg 9.24

 

'daiva-varnasrama' mission by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati:

"Therefore they attack the pure Vaishnavas, saying, 'They have taken birth

in low-class families because of their sins.' Thus they commit offenses. The

solution to the problem is to establish the order of daiva-varnasrama-dharma

- something you have started doing; you should know that to be the real

service to the Vaishnavas."

 

 

 

>

> That is what I understand from Srila Prabhupad's quote. Sarva Dharman

> parityajya means give up (if required) even Varnasrama Dharma or any

> Dharma to please Guru and Krishna.

>

> Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

"Every man should perform his occupational duty in the light of his

particular tendency. According to his abilities, one should accept a

position in the varnasrama institution... Those who properly execute their

prescribed duties live peacefully and are not disturbed by material

conditions... If one executes his prescribed duty in both the social and

spiritual order, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is satisfied. If one

neglects his duty, however, he becomes a transgressor and a candidate for a

hellish condition. Actually we see that different people are engaged in

different ways, therefore there must be divisions according to work. To

attain perfection, one must make devotional service the center of life. In

this way one can awaken his natural instincts by work, association and

education. One should accept the varnasrama divisions by qualification, not

by birth. Unless this system is introduced, human activities cannot be

systematically executed... The conclusion is that the scientific method of

Varnasrama-dharma should be adopted by society." CC Mad. 8.58.

[Guest guest]

> > I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that statement sounds extremely

> > naive and simplistic.

 

>

> Yes. Krishna Consciousness principles are very simple. It is not

> complicated like the other Dharmas, such as Varnasrama Dharma.

 

 

We will one day understand that there is NO difference between Krsna

consciousness and daiva varnasrama-dharma. Until then we will continue in

chaos.

 

"Therefore, the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to establish this

right system of human civilization, which is known as Krsna consciousness,

or daiva-varnasrama- divine culture." SSR pg.106

 

"Lord Ramacandra became King during Treta-yuga, but because of His good

government, the age was like Satya-yuga. Everyone was religious and

completely happy. Among the four yugas--Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali--the

Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is

introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be

invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant

for this purpose." S.B. 9.10.51

[Guest guest]

> > We will one day understand that there is NO difference between Krsna

> > consciousness and daiva varnasrama-dharma. Until then we will continue

> > in chaos.

>

> Thank you prabhji, I accept that. That is what I was trying to say all

> along. ISKCON is established to spread bhagavata dharma and varnasrama

> dharma is a part of the whole bhagavata dharma.

 

 

But, Prabhuji, you give the impression (which I may be misinterpreting) that

varnasrama-dharma will happen "automatically" if we just go chant Hare

Krsna. Prabhupada gave very detailed instructions to his senior disciples

over 26 years ago over a four day period how to implement varnasrama dharma

within ISKCON. This has not been done to this day and most of those "senior"

disciples are now gone and have left a trail of chaos, crime and abuse of

women children and cows; the opposite of what a Krsna

conscious/varnasrama-dharma society should be.

 

It is NOT automatic. It takes hard work, perspiration and training. We MUST

divide our society into the four divisions of guna and karma.

 

 

"Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be

established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become

Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so

many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest

qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall

down."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big

scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not

possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole

human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be

introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a

large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking

up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said

para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of

people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve

karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit,

not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people

will be happy."

 

 

"To maintain proper social order and help the citizens gradually progress

toward the goal of life - namely spiritual understanding - the principles of

varnasrama-dharma must be accepted. From his verse, Maharaja Priyavrata

appears to have been so strict in maintaining this institution of

varnasrama-dharma that anyone neglecting it would immediately flee from his

presence as soon as the King warned him by fighting or administering light

punishment. Indeed, Maharaja Priyavrata would not have to fight, for simply

because of his strong determination, they dared not disobey the rules and

regulations of varnasrama-dharma. It is said that unless human society is

regulated by varnasrama-dharma, it is no better than a bestial society of

cats and dogs. Maharaja Priyavrata, therefore, strictly maintained

varnasrama-dharma by his extraordinary, unparalleled prowess.

To maintain such a life of strict vigilance, one needs encouragement

from his wife. In the varnasrama-dharma system, certain classes, such as the

brahmanas and sannyasis, do not need encouragement from the opposite sex.

Ksatriyas and grihastas, however, actually need the encouragement of their

wives in order to execute their duties. Indeed, a grihasta or ksatriya

cannot properly execute his responsibilities without the association of his

wife. Sri Caitanya personally admitted that a grihasta must live with a

wife. Ksatriyas were even allowed to have many wives to encourage them in

discharging the duties of government. The association of a good wife is

necessary in a life of karma and political affairs. Maharaja Priyavrata took

advantage of his good wife Barhismati, who was always very expert in

pleasing her great husband by properly dressing herself, smiling, and

exhibiting her feminine bodily features. Queen Barhismati always kept

Maharaja Priyavrata very encouraged, and thus he executed his governmental

duty very properly. In this verse iva has twice been used to indicate that

Maharaja Priyavrata acted exactly like a henpecked husband and thereby

seemed to have lost his sense of human responsibility. Actually, however, he

was fully conscious of his position as a spirit soul, although he seemingly

behaved like an acquiescent karmi husband." SB 5.1.29

[Guest guest]

>Prabhupada gave very detailed instructions to his senior disciples over >26

years ago over a four day period how to implement varnasrama dharma >within

ISKCON.

 

Prabhuji, I would like to see this, for my better understanding. Can you

please post the details, if you have it.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

> > Thank you prabhji, I accept that. That is what I was trying to say all

> > along. ISKCON is established to spread bhagavata dharma and varnasrama

> > dharma is a part of the whole bhagavata dharma.

>

>

> But, Prabhuji, you give the impression (which I may be misinterpreting) that

> varnasrama-dharma will happen "automatically" if we just go chant Hare

> Krsna.

 

Just as much as I got the impression (I may be wrong), that some of us were

trying to replace the 12 years teachings and instructions of Bhagavata

Philosophy by Srila Prabhupada with only the teachings and instructions of

Varnasrama.

 

My understanding as already I clarified, Varnasrama is one of the objectives

of ISKCON and it is not the only objective. I gave Srila Prabhupad's quote on

that.

 

Varnasrama is already present in some crude form or the other in all places in

all ages...One of the lectures by Srila Prabhupada if some one could post it

here.

 

Just being a Ksatriya, or brahmana is not sufficient, but one has to please

Krishna with their Dharma or if required, if Krishna wants, one has to give up

one's Dharma. What is the use of that Dharma which cannot please Krishna. If

Kauravas, had followed Krishna's instructions and stopped fighting, they

would have become glorious like Pandavas.

 

By guna and Karma, Hiranyakashipu was a highly qualified Ksatriya. What is

the use if he could not please Krishna?

 

So Bhagavata Dharma is the whole and Varnasrama Dharma is a part.

 

Thank you very much for your continued blessings.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

On 16 Sep 2000, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> Apparently, you are not really talking here about varnasrama dharma

> that is being described in Srila Prabhupada's books and that he asked

> his followers to *implement* in the world. "All those caste Brahmanas,

> ksatriyas,...." means not daiva varnasrama dharma but asuric varnasrama

> dharma. Let's not confuse something that has been rejected by our Acaryas

> with something that has been recommended by them.

 

I am not confused at all. Pandavas, and Prabhlad Maharaj are Ksatriyas and

come under Daiva Varnasrama, and Kauravas and Hiranya Kashipu are also

Ksatriyas and they come under asuric varnasrama. It is a question of whether

one is Krishna Consciousness. My understanding is from Srila Prabhupada as

follows.

 

Quote

Varnasrama-dharma, the system of four spiritual orders and four social orders

of life, is of two kinds: demoniac and transcendental. They have nothing in

common. The divisions of society mentioned in the scriptures are present at

all times and in all lands. If one with knowledge of the scriptures

scrutinizes the different societies, he can easily discern the four classes.

Persons possessing brahminical or priestly qualities in varying degrees are

seen in practically every society. In modern terms they are called

intellectuals. All the other classes are also present. Therefore it is an

established fact that the four divisions of society, according to merit, are,

were, and will be present everywhere.

 

-----Srila Prabhupada.

Unquote

 

So if it is an established fact that the four divisions of society, according

to merit, are, were and will be present everywhere, then where is the question

of we establishing these divisions. The divisions are already made, by Lord

Krishna. Catur Varnyam Maya Sristam Guna Karma Vibhagashah.

 

ISKCON being a preaching movement, has to impart spiritual knowledge to the

society at large and who ever becomes Krishna Conscious, they will

automatically come under Daiva Varnasrama. That needs lot of hardwork.

 

> In any case, wether you are considering yourself to be transcendental

> to "superficial varnasrama dharma principles", as I could understand

> you are a family man, got a wife and children. So you got to follow

> the prescribed duties for a grihasta anyway. And wether you consider

> yourself above the designation of any of the four varnas, you still got

> to earn your money in order to support your family by some mean. So in

> order to achieve that, you got to fit in some system. I guess some kind

> of a "karmi" system. Like everybody else, in this or that extent.

 

I am less than a Sudra, less than a human being, as per the definitions of

Bhishma Deva and Manu Samhita, but simply by the causeless mercy of the ISKCON

society, now I am being referred to as a devotee in ISKCON.

 

I am working in a Ugra Karma factory and maintaining my family and I think

based on my work I am a Sudra.

 

I am a Grihamedhi trying to become a Grihastha by the blessings of Vaishnavas,

Guru and Krishna. Thanks to ISKCON.

 

Seeking your blessings,

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Janesvara Prabhu for posting all those recent wonderfully relevant

Srila Prabhupada quotes on varnasrama dharma in ISKCON as well as your

realised explanations.

 

On this subject you are way ahead. Lets's hope our upcoming varnasrama

restructure proposal to the GBC will bear some fruit in the form of

acceptance and implementation thereby producing a positive change in ISKCON

in line with Srila Prabhupada's daivi varnasrama vision.

 

Keep em coming.

 

ys

 

ada

 

> > > We will one day understand that there is NO difference between Krsna

> > > consciousness and daiva varnasrama-dharma. Until then we will continue

> > > in chaos.

> >

> > Thank you prabhji, I accept that. That is what I was trying to say all

> > along. ISKCON is established to spread bhagavata dharma and varnasrama

> > dharma is a part of the whole bhagavata dharma.

>

>

> But, Prabhuji, you give the impression (which I may be misinterpreting)

> that varnasrama-dharma will happen "automatically" if we just go chant

> Hare Krsna. Prabhupada gave very detailed instructions to his senior

> disciples over 26 years ago over a four day period how to implement

> varnasrama dharma within ISKCON. This has not been done to this day and

> most of those "senior" disciples are now gone and have left a trail of

> chaos, crime and abuse of women children and cows; the opposite of what a

> Krsna conscious/varnasrama-dharma society should be.

>

> It is NOT automatic. It takes hard work, perspiration and training. We

> MUST divide our society into the four divisions of guna and karma.

>

>

> "Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be

> established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

> Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

> Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become

> Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why

> so many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest

> qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is...

> fall down."

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big

> scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is

> not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the

> world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the

> whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement

> should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want

> to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now

> we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya

> Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up?

> The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required,

> systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah.

> Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we

> have to introduce this varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and

> it is possible and people will be happy."

>

>

> "To maintain proper social order and help the citizens gradually progress

> toward the goal of life - namely spiritual understanding - the principles

> of varnasrama-dharma must be accepted. From his verse, Maharaja Priyavrata

> appears to have been so strict in maintaining this institution of

> varnasrama-dharma that anyone neglecting it would immediately flee from

> his presence as soon as the King warned him by fighting or administering

> light punishment. Indeed, Maharaja Priyavrata would not have to fight, for

> simply because of his strong determination, they dared not disobey the

> rules and regulations of varnasrama-dharma. It is said that unless human

> society is regulated by varnasrama-dharma, it is no better than a bestial

> society of cats and dogs. Maharaja Priyavrata, therefore, strictly

> maintained varnasrama-dharma by his extraordinary, unparalleled prowess.

> To maintain such a life of strict vigilance, one needs encouragement

> from his wife. In the varnasrama-dharma system, certain classes, such as

> the brahmanas and sannyasis, do not need encouragement from the opposite

> sex. Ksatriyas and grihastas, however, actually need the encouragement of

> their wives in order to execute their duties. Indeed, a grihasta or

> ksatriya cannot properly execute his responsibilities without the

> association of his wife. Sri Caitanya personally admitted that a grihasta

> must live with a wife. Ksatriyas were even allowed to have many wives to

> encourage them in discharging the duties of government. The association of

> a good wife is necessary in a life of karma and political affairs.

> Maharaja Priyavrata took advantage of his good wife Barhismati, who was

> always very expert in pleasing her great husband by properly dressing

> herself, smiling, and exhibiting her feminine bodily features. Queen

> Barhismati always kept Maharaja Priyavrata very encouraged, and thus he

> executed his governmental duty very properly. In this verse iva has twice

> been used to indicate that Maharaja Priyavrata acted exactly like a

> henpecked husband and thereby seemed to have lost his sense of human

> responsibility. Actually, however, he was fully conscious of his position

> as a spirit soul, although he seemingly behaved like an acquiescent karmi

> husband." SB 5.1.29

[Guest guest]

> So if it is an established fact that the four divisions of society,

> according to merit, are, were and will be present everywhere, then where

> is the question of we establishing these divisions. The divisions are

> already made, by Lord Krishna. Catur Varnyam Maya Sristam Guna Karma

> Vibhagashah.

 

Why, Srila Prabhupada did not instruct us to establish the *four

varnas*. Why are you questioning that? He asked for implementation

of *varnasrama dharma system*. I don't know wether you are aware of

what the former is and what the later. Looks like not.

 

 

> ISKCON being a preaching movement, has to impart spiritual knowledge to

> the society at large and who ever becomes Krishna Conscious, they will

> automatically come under Daiva Varnasrama. That needs lot of hardwork.

 

There is no daiva varnasrama system existing in this world. So

what are you talking "who ever becomes... they will automatically

come under Daiva Varnasrama"?

 

 

> I am working in a Ugra Karma factory and maintaining my family and I think

> based on my work I am a Sudra.

 

I wanted to make the point that you can't avoid performing your

occupational duties under *some* functioning social system. One

is bound to it, so long so one is not yet transcendental. So either

it is within the frame of daiva varnasrama system or it is something

else. Looks like to me that in this age one will automatically come

under Ugra Karma factory rather, not daiva varnasrama.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

On 20 Sep 2000, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

> Why, Srila Prabhupada did not instruct us to establish the *four

> varnas*. Why are you questioning that? He asked for implementation

> of *varnasrama dharma system*. I don't know wether you are aware of

> what the former is and what the later. Looks like not.

 

Dear Prabhuji,

 

My understanding is:

 

Varna + Asrama = Varnasrama

There are 4 Varnas and 4 Asramas. Varnasrama is God made and not man made.

 

4 Varnas are Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya and Sudra, 4 Asramas are Brahmachari,

Grihastha, Vanaprastha and Sannyasa. When we talk of Varnasrama, we talk of 4

Varnas also. We cannot leave them out.

 

> There is no daiva varnasrama system existing in this world. So

> what are you talking "who ever becomes... they will automatically

> come under Daiva Varnasrama"?

 

Varnasrama Dharma is also called as Sanatana Dharma. It is eternal. There is

no beginning and there is no end. It has been, is, and will be always there

although in some crude form. The eternal religion is there, but people who

follow this may not be there. So when some one follows the Saatana Dharma or

Varnasrama Dharma they *automatically* come under the Daiva Varnasrama system

which is anyway there.

 

Basically for human beings Varnasrama is necessary for systematic development

of God Consciousness. Varnasrama Dharma is a system to develop God

Consciousness.

 

Varnasrama Dharma with out Krishna is artificial like it is now in Kaliyuga.

Varnasrama society puts Krishna in the center they automatically become

members of Daiva Varnasrama. The difference is only whether one is Krishna

Conscious or not.

 

Srila Prabhupada tells:

The varnasrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the

Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over

another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is

missed by too much attachment for indriya-priti, or sense gratification, as

already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varnasrama is utilized

by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In

the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is

already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the

divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse

and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains "The life of a human being is a chance to prepare

oneself to go back to Godhead, or to get rid of the material existence, the

repetition of birth and death. Thus in the system of varnasrama-dharma every

man and woman is trained for this purpose. In other words, the system of

varnasrama-dharma is known also as sanatana-dharma, or the eternal occupation.

The system of varnasrama-dharma prepares a man for going back to Godhead, and

thus a householder is ordered to go to the forest as vanaprastha to acquire

complete

knowledge and then to take sannyasa prior to his inevitable death".

 

To recap my discussion with the other devotees on this subject

 

1. Varnasrama Dharma + Krishna = Sanatana Dharma

2. Varnasrama Dharma - Krishna = superficial dharma or cheating dharma.

3. When we talk of training in Varnasrama Dharma in a society either through

college, or through a Namahatta or through e-mail or through a temple, it is

to train them how to become God Conscious. The training is in devotional

principles. It is not by opening a college to train them in some

administrative skills, or business skills, or some manual skills like

carpentary or welding. These schools are already existing. What is not

existing is schools or colleges, that do not impart spiritual knowledge. And

if ISKCON opens Varnasrama colleges around the world, it should be to impart

the spiritual knowledge as per Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavadgita, which will

any way also deal with 4 social orders and 4 spiritual orders. Sanatana

Dharma or Bhagavata Dharma is the whole and Varnasrama Dharma is a part of

this whole.

 

Training of Brahmana and Ksatriya means training intellectual class and

administrative class of the society (which is already there, and we do not

have to create that classes) how to please Lord Krishna with out artificially

renouncing their position, of Varna and Asrama which they already have.

 

This is the fifth proposal by Ramananda Raya to Lord Caitnaya, which Lord

Caitanya accepted.

 

This is the purpose for which ISKCON is established as per Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada our founder Acarya has shed buckets and buckets of blood to

create a structure that is (ISKCON and ISKCON affiliations like colleges and

schools) where the 4 classes (social and spiritual orders) come and get some

association of devotees of Lord Krishna and engage in Sravanam and Kirtanam on

the glories of Lord Sri Krishna. Our Varnasrama colleges should teach all

the *classes* of humans how to go back home back to Godhead, as that is what a

Varnasrama college is meant for.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

> 3. When we talk of training in Varnasrama Dharma in a society either

> through college, or through a Namahatta or through e-mail or through a

> temple, it is to train them how to become God Conscious. The training is

> in devotional principles. It is not by opening a college to train them in

> some administrative skills, or business skills, or some manual skills like

> carpentary or welding.

 

 

Please try to quote Srila Prabhupada, the guru maharaja of ISKCON. Your

words are manufactured hellish speculations.

 

(CWSP) Johannesburg Oct. 16, 1975:

Harikesa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...

Prabhupada: Beginning Krsna.

Harikesa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person

is worthy of...

Prabhupada: No, no. Beginning Krsna. Why don't you read Bhagavad- Gita? You

don't know?

Harikesa: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupada: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikesa: That Krsna created the four orders.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in

order. But you are not taking Krsna's advice. You are manufacturing your

hellish ideas.

 

 

Sorry for the frankness, but you must change your ideas if you want to stay

in line with Prabhupada's instructions as follows which were made very

specifically by Srila Prabhupada over 26 years ago but have NEVER been

implemented by the so-called leaders of ISKCON:.

 

Srila Prabhupada: The varna-asrama college has to be established

immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our centers, a varna-asrama

college should be established to train all divisions: one class brahmana,

one class ksatriya, one class vaisya and one class sudra.

 

Hrdayananda Goswami: So in varna-asrama college, this varna-asrama dharma

college, there are the two divisions varna and asrama.

Srila Prabhupada: First of all varna and when the varna is perfectly in

order, then there is asrama. Asrama is especially meant for spiritual

advancement. Varna is general division. It must be there in human society.

If varna is not there then this is a society of animals. And when the varna

is working perfectly, then we give them the asrama. Varna-asrama, that is

later on.

 

Hrdayananda Goswami: First they should be taught a skill.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, first of all the whole society should be divided into

four varnas. Otherwise there will be chaotic conditions. That is the

position now. What is he? What he has to do? One does not know and there

is so much unemployment. If you organize the society into varnas there will

be no question of unemployment.

 

Hrdayananda Goswami: So for example, if I become a teacher, a first teacher

in varna-asrama dharma colleges, then I must become expert in how to fight

and to . . .

 

Srila Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must learn the art of

fighting. Practically speaking, we are not going to fight. If required we

can fight. I said that we are above all this varna-asrama dharma but we

must train others, ourselves also, for material activities under these

divisions

 

 

Hrdayananda Goswami: So, Srila Prabhupada, in our temples we have so many

devotees . . .

 

Srila Prabhupada: They should be engaged.

 

Hrdayananda Swami: Should they be trained in a particular . . .

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, those who are not able to preach or to do other

things, they must go to the plow department, agriculture. Those who are

less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as

ksatriya or vaisya or as sudra. Always remember like that, but he has to

act to fill up the gap. Proxy."

Varnasrama morning walks 1974

 

 

> Our Varnasrama

> colleges should teach all the *classes* of humans how to go back home back

> to Godhead, as that is what a Varnasrama college is meant for.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

 

Please stop putting forth your speculation without providing evidence from

Srila Prabhupada regarding his varnasrama college orders.

 

Srila Prabhupada: (Quotes from Padma Purana). We'll teach the military art

and soldiers with tilaka will march: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare

Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. (All disciples laugh.) We

want that they should be marching with military band. Hare Krsna! We will

maintain this idea, is it not good?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Ksatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must

see that everyone is engaged and if there is any fight he must come forward

to fight this is ksatriya business. There may be fight, somebody may

attack us. Not that they simply chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna

Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. No! (Srila Prabhupada

laughs) They must come forward. Yes, they are prepared to fight. That is

ksatriya

Varnasrama morning walks 1974

[Guest guest]

> Now I donot understand why you are seeing the difference, when we are

> talking the same, subject.

 

We may be discussing the same subject but have different understanding of

it.

 

 

> The quotes which you have provided are for those devotees, who are not not

> engaged in any work, but just chanting, and they have to be trained in

> some skills, according to their nature/aptitude.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's quotes are for all. He never said, "these varnasrama

statements of mine are meant for this devotee or that devotee". You are

adding to his perfect words when there is really no need.

 

 

> So when they go to varnasrama college, they learn skills to fall into some

> Varna, Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya and Sudra.

 

 

There is no "falling into some varna". Everyone is born of a certain nature.

Like Krsna told Arjuna he was a ksatriya and not to try to fight it. "What

does repression accomplish?"

 

 

> Now I am taslking about those people, who are already, have their varna

> fixed, like some police man or a military man, who is already a ksatriya.

 

 

He is NOT ksatriya. He is a man in the mode of passion, maybe. This is NOT

ksatriya. A man in the mode of passion (guna) becomes ksatriya when he takes

on the qualities as defined in the eighteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gita

through training in a varnasrama college or from a proper guru who is

supposed to train according to nature.

 

 

 

> He is already marching left, right but he does not know Krishna and he

> does not chant Krishna. When such a person is admitted to our Varnasrama

> college, we don't have to train him in his varna because he is already

> trained.

 

 

Prabhupada never said anything like this in his morning walk conversations

about varnasrama. Did you get this conversation yet from your guru

Jayapataka? Please ask him for the entire four days of discussion. I have

attached a copy to this file which may come through for your review. Please

don't try to interpret Prabhupada's words. Just take them as they are. They

are perfectly clear.

 

 

 

 

> All I am saying is our Varnasrama College should not just teach some

> skills of different Varnas, but they should also teach devotional

> principles.

 

Chanting Hare Krsna or any holy name of the Lord like Christ or Allah is for

everyone in this age. All of these names are invested with the Lord's

transcendental energy. The devotional practices are different for each varna

and the proper practice will bring perfection to the different natures.

 

This is very important because ISKCON has neglected to provide proper

instruction for spiritual advancement to the different varnas of the

devotees for more than 26 years. They simply continue to try to make

brahmanas out of everyone. Thus they try to cram round heads through square

holes with the comcommitant injuries known as abuse and prejudice. This not

based upon sastra.

 

The following instructions from Bhagavatam are extremely important for

ISKCON to understand and follow. If you don't care to read the whole quote

please scroll down to the end and read the last two sentences:

 

"Dhruva did not accept the instruction given by the great saint Narada

because he thought himself unfit for such instruction, which prohibited all

material desires. It is not a fact, however, that those who have material

desires are prohibited from worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

This is the essential instruction from the life of Dhruva Maharaja. He

frankly admitted that his heart was full of material desires. First of all,

he was very much affected by the cruel words of his stepmother, whereas

those who are spiritually advanced do not care about anyone's condemnation

or adoration.

In Bhagavad-gita it is said that persons who are actually advanced in

spiritual life do not care for the dual behavior of this material world. But

Dhruva Maharaja frankly admitted that he was not beyond the affliction of

material distress and happiness. He was confident that the instruction given

by Narada was valuable, yet he could not accept it. The question raised here

is whether or not a person afflicted by material desires is fit to worship

the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The answer is that everyone is fit to

worship Him. Even if one has many material desires to fulfill, he should

take to Krsna consciousness and worship the Supreme Lord Krsna, who is so

merciful that He fulfills everyone's desires. Through this narration it will

become very clear that no one is barred from worshiping the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, even if he has many material desires." SB 4.8.35

 

"Sri Dhruva lived in Satya-yuga which had all facility for brahminical

culture and when Sri Narada, the greatest spiritual master in the universe,

preached brahminical culture to him he rejected it. "My dear lord, I am very

impudent for not accepting your instructions, but this is not my fault. It

is due to my being born in a ksatriya family." S.B. 4.8.36

"Dhruva Maharaja indirectly informed the great sage Narada that there are

four kinds of human spirit - the brahminical spirit, the ksatriya spirit,

the vaisya spirit and the sudra spirit. The spirit of one caste is not

applicable to the members of another. The philosophical spirit enunciated by

Narada Muni might have been suitable for a brahmana spirit, but it was not

suitable for a ksatriya. Dhruva frankly admitted that he was lacking in

brahminical humility and was therefore unable to accept the philosophy of

Narada Muni. The statements of Dhruva Maharaja indicate that unless a child

is trained according to his tendency, there is no possibility of his

developing his particular spirit. It was the duty of the spiritual master or

teacher to observe the psychological movement of a particular boy and thus

train him in a particular occupational duty. Dhruva Maharaja, having already

been trained in the ksatriya spirit, would not accept the brahminical

philosophy." Purport SB 4.8.36

 

 

 

 

 

> You are talking about a person who is already a devotee who has no varna

> and ofcourse he has to be given varna.

 

Everyone is born with a varna (catur-varnyam maya sristam) but require

training by guru, sadhu and sastra to develop daiva-varna.

 

 

> I am talking about a person who has varna but no devotion and of course he

> has to be given devotion.

 

Daiva varnasrama-dharma IS devotion. It must be in accordance with ones

nature like Dhruva mentioned above.

 

 

> So our Varnasrama colleges, have to teach both devotional principles and

> the varna skills. Teaching only one and leaving the other is like taking

> care of only the cage and not the bird, or the other way taking care of

> only the bird but not the cage. As long as the bird is in the cage both

> cage and the bird have to be taken care of.

 

 

But is must be in accordance with the psycho-physical nature of the

candidate. The gurus MUST teach according to the nature of the student.

 

 

Krsne matir astu,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

> Krsne matir astu,

>

> Janesvara dasa.

 

I am blessed. Hare Krishna,

 

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

[Guest guest]

> > Krsne matir astu,

> >

> > Janesvara dasa.

>

> I am blessed. Hare Krishna,

>

> Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

 

 

 

I do not know if you are blessed or not, but I am curious if the varnasrama

file I attached got through?

 

I will not sign of with krsne matir astu anymore if you wish.

 

Hari! Hari!

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

On 24 Sep 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

 

Dear Prabhuji,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP. AGT Your Grace.

 

When you blessed me by saying "Krsne Matir Astu", I just responded by saying

"I am blessed". In simple words, I was trying to say "Thank you for the

blessings". That's it.

 

Definitely, I expect every Srila Prabhupada's disciple to sign off "Krsne

Matir Astu" when they write to a granddisciple. With out all your blessings

and guidance, we granddisciples do not have any shelter.

 

When you bless me I am definitely blessed.

 

Yes I got the attached file on Varnasrama. I have read day 1 already. I am

busy because of some audit at office and some guests at home, and should be

able to finish reading it before week end.

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Thank you very much for your continued blessings.

 

Please do bless me again and again. I need blessings of vaishnavas. That is

my life's sustenance.

 

Seeking your blessings,

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

> I do not know if you are blessed or not, but I am curious if the varnasrama

> file I attached got through?

>

> I will not sign of with krsne matir astu anymore if you wish.

>

> Hari! Hari!

>

> Janesvara dasa