Guest guest Posted November 8, 2000 Report Share Posted November 8, 2000 This is getting to be a very troublesome issue in the U.S. It's nothing new that some innocent people are punished, but until recently, cases where it can be absolutely proven that an condemned person is innocent have been rare. What has changed is the widespread availability of DNA testing. Many states are allowing convicted criminals to have the evidence they were convicted on tested to see if it can shown that it doesn't match their DNA. This issue recently appeared in the spotlight when the governor of Illinois, a populous and politically important state, stopped all executions there, because more persons sentenced to death were winning their appeals than the number being executed. The primary reason innocent persons get convicted is that those who cannot afford their own lawyers are represented by overworked (and sometimes incompetent or lazy) state-appointed attorneys. Another factor is police and prosecutors concealing evidence that could prove a person innocent. Their thinking is often, "Well this guy is a drug dealer, so what's the harm if he's convicted of murder too?" Many police and prosecutors are strongly opposed to giving more convicted persons access to DNA tests. ys SRd | |Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net |[Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net]On Behalf Of Harsi |Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:23 PM |Varnasrama development |death sentence for inocents | | |It,s really interesting what I saw recently on TV, that in the USA many people |are sentenced to death and also killed, although they where innocent. In some |cases the police forced some drug adicted people to declare themselfs guilty |although their guilt could never be proven. |Death sentence stil something good for a society? | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2000 Report Share Posted November 8, 2000 > This is getting to be a very troublesome issue in the U.S. It's nothing > new that some innocent people are punished, but until recently, cases > where it can be absolutely proven that an condemned person is innocent > have been rare. It's interesting that US government practically forced Ukrainian goverment to prohibit sentence to death, and they still have this law in many states in US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2000 Report Share Posted November 8, 2000 >> This is getting to be a very troublesome issue in the U.S. It's nothing >> new that some innocent people are punished, but until recently, cases >> where it can be absolutely proven that an condemned person is innocent >> have been rare. > >It's interesting that US government practically forced Ukrainian >goverment to prohibit sentence to death, and they still have this >law in many states in US. That seems to be another of this strange curiositys typicaly for the US like their vote system. Which, like one would probably see soon, although the majority of the citizens of that state voted for one president, they will probably be governed against their will by another president, whom the majority did not voted for. What would Prabhupada say about this? Probably demon-crazy system or? Where does this strange system come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 The US has more people in jail per capita than any other country in the world, I believe. Land of the free. "(Bhakta) Oleg Demtchenko (Mayapur Education - IN)" wrote: > > This is getting to be a very troublesome issue in the U.S. It's nothing > > new that some innocent people are punished, but until recently, cases > > where it can be absolutely proven that an condemned person is innocent > > have been rare. > > It's interesting that US government practically forced Ukrainian > goverment to prohibit sentence to death, and they still have this > law in many states in US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 > > > > >It's interesting that US government practically forced Ukrainian > >goverment to prohibit sentence to death, and they still have this > >law in many states in US. Or could anyone explain to me the difference between what the Yugoslavians were doing with the Albanian rebels (BEFORE the UN intervened) and what the Israelis (with $3 billion in US military aid) are doing with the Palestinians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 > > > > > > > >It's interesting that US government practically forced Ukrainian > > >goverment to prohibit sentence to death, and they still have this > > >law in many states in US. > > Or could anyone explain to me the difference between what the Yugoslavians > were doing with the Albanian rebels (BEFORE the UN intervened) and what > the Israelis (with $3 billion in US military aid) are doing with the > Palestinians? I think you will like Noam Chomsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 >> Or could anyone explain to me the difference between what the Yugoslavians >> were doing with the Albanian rebels (BEFORE the UN intervened) and what >> the Israelis (with $3 billion in US military aid) are doing with the Palestinians? > >I think you will like Noam Chomsky. I didn,t get it, who was Noam Chomsky? I was happy to get this e-mails from you, my good friends from COM. Hope you are all happy and healthy. Harsi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 > > > I think you will like Noam Chomsky. Nader for president. Chomsky for Secretary of State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 On 9 Nov 2000, Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > > > > > I think you will like Noam Chomsky. > > Nader for president. Chomsky for Secretary of State. > I second it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 |That seems to be another of this strange curiositys typically for the US like |their vote system. Which, like one would probably see soon, although the |majority of the citizens of that state voted for one president, they will |probably be governed against their will by another president, whom the |majority did not voted for. | |What would Prabhupada say about this? Probably demon-crazy system or? |Where does this strange system come from? As bizarre as the U.S. electoral system is, there is a logic behind it. Without going into the details, the system is designed to balance the political power of those who live in rural areas against city dwellers. A common problem afflicting democracies is the fact that the easiest and least expensive way to win an election is to address the needs and desires of voters who live in big cities. Because so many people are concentrated in a small area, they have similar needs and are easy to reach. When this is the case, it can cause serious economic and social distortions. For example, this has affected the distribution of food in Mexico for decades. Politicians in power make sure that the city-dwellers have plenty of food at prices they perceive as reasonable. This is accomplished by artificially controlling the prices paid to farmers in the countryside, thereby keeping them -- and everyone else in rural areas -- impoverished. However, it kept the PRI party in power for over seventy years. There have been many similar occurrences around the world. However, the U.S. system can cause an unexpected results under rare circumstances -- although it has happened only once, about 100 years ago, that the loser of the popular vote became president. The result of the current election now depends on the recount of votes in the state of Florida. Although the recount of Tuesday's vote will be completed in about four hours, the final count will not be over until November 17, when the tally of absentee ballots cast overseas is done. Even then it may not be finished, as there is a dispute over 19,000 ballots cast in one Florida county which were thrown out because the voters accidentally voted for more than one candidate (due to a poorly-designed ballot). Since those people overwhelmingly intended to vote for Gore, this is not likely to be settled without the typical protracted American legal battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 >This is getting to be a very troublesome issue in the U.S. It's nothing new that >some innocent people are punished, but until recently, cases where it can be >absolutely proven that an condemned person is innocent have been rare. I wonder what would be the karmic implications when someone got executed due to the power of a state and than it came out that this person was not guilty of this particular crime. Who would be implicated due to the law of karma in that "crime" of killing an inocent person? The state authoritys personally or the state colectively? The man who injected the poison, or put someone on the electric chair? Or, like it is practiced in Russia shot the "innocent" in an inatentive moment of his, in his room in prison? >What has changed is the widespread availability of DNA testing. Many states are >allowing convicted criminals to have the evidence they were convicted on tested >to see if it can shown that it doesn't match their DNA. What does it say about the law system of a state when, like I was hearing recently that in the US in many universitys the students of law together with their professors organized small groups, where they can learn to be lawyers by reinvestigating if a particular person who got sentenced to death is indeed guilty of that crime or inocent. In this way this student groups who are operating now in many cities of the US have helped until now 83 persons who were already sentenced to death by the state autorithies to regain their freedom from jail and their life, by proving that they were inocent. Some were regaining their freedom after 20 years of jail and a fiew weeks before they should be killed. We know the vedic system alows also the death sentence but in this modern time the aplication of this can be very risky, isn,t it? At least in many cases it can be very difficult to decide if someone is indeed guilty of a particular crime. >This issue recently appeared in the spotlight when the governor of Illinois, a >populous and politically important state, stopped all executions there, because >more persons sentenced to death were winning their appeals than the number >being executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 In a message dated 11/09/2000 5:42:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Harsidas.he (AT) t-online (DOT) de writes: << I wonder what would be the karmic implications when someone got executed due to the power of a state and than it came out that this person was not guilty of this particular crime. Who would be implicated due to the law of karma in that "crime" of killing an inocent person? The state authoritys personally or the state colectively? >> While this theoretical person might not have been guilty of that particular crime, if one should suffer the punishment of execution, they were obviously implicated karmically in some crime. There are no real innocent victims in society, as painful as that might seem. The material world is indeed a place of suffering and there is more than enough to go around for the never ending karmic activities everyone is involved in to one degree or another. That does not let the prosecutors, judges, juries and executioners off the karmic hook for being part of executing an apparently innocent person. The only hope is to avoid being the source of another's suffering and there is only one way to really do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 > I wonder what would be the karmic implications when someone got executed > due to the power of a state and than it came out that this person was not > guilty of this particular crime. Who would be implicated due to the law > of karma in that "crime" of killing an inocent person? The state > authoritys personally or the state colectively? In according with laws of Manu, the karma falls on authorities, which conducted the court. Witnesses, who made false statements, are also guilty of course. > The man who injected the poison, or put someone on the electric chair? Or, > like it is practiced in Russia shot the "innocent" in an inatentive moment > of his, in his room in prison? Executors are rarely know anything about their victim. I doubt that they bear at least same amount of karma, like those, who make a judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 On 9 Nov 2000, Harsi wrote: > >> Or could anyone explain to me the difference between what the > Yugoslavians > >> were doing with the Albanian rebels (BEFORE the UN intervened) and what > >> the Israelis (with $3 billion in US military aid) are doing with the > Palestinians? > > > >I think you will like Noam Chomsky. > > I didn,t get it, who was Noam Chomsky? Noam Chomsky is an MIT linguist who has made a name for himself as a political, intellectual and social critic and theorist. Like Mr. Nader, he has had a distinguished career and life of accomplishment which qualifies him well to be a ... College professor! Neither of the two is even remotely qualified to be anything other than what they already are: political, intellectual and social critics and theorists. And cult-circuit lecturers and in Mr. Nader's case, political activist. It is common to hear Mr Chomsky and Mr. Nader on media oulets such as Pacifica radio (WWW.Pacifica.Org), which has streaming audio versions of it's content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 In a message dated 11/10/2000 12:32:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, JivaGo (AT) FDT (DOT) Net writes: > Neither of the two is even remotely qualified to be anything other than what > they already are: political, intellectual and social critics and theorists. > And cult-circuit lecturers and in Mr. Nader's case, political activist. 92,000 voters in Florida don't agree with you position here prabhu. Had Nader been allowed to address the citizens of America who only get their news on TV, he might have made a bigger difference in the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 > > 92,000 voters in Florida don't agree with you position here prabhu. Had Nader > been allowed to address the citizens of America who only get their news on > TV, he might have made a bigger difference in the election. Had the military industrial shill sent out to co-opt the environmentally conscious vote, Al Gore, not given the deceptive appearance that he is enviroment friendly ,, Nader would have gotten a lot more. Gore visited a toxic waste incinerator site in pre election 1996 that was being built within a few thousand feet of a school, right on the banks of the Ohio River, and assured the political activists there that under a Clinton Gore administration it would never be allowed to operate. It opened on schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 Lance Morrow: Anyone around here seen a president? November 10, 2000 Web posted at: 1:26 PM EST (1826 GMT) (TIME.com) -- Where is that new President of ours? I know he's here someplace. RELATED Index Previous Columns by Lance Morrow Now you see him, now you don't. The presidential election terminating the Clinton years ends in the ultimate Clintonism -- an astonishing tie, a masterpiece of delicately balanced ambivalence. We end by looking at a split screen, like one of those old campaign buttons that shows you one image (Gore) if you look at it from one angle and a different image (Bush) if you tilt it slightly. I seem to see Clinton enter smilingly upon the chaotic scene: "Say, if y'all really can't make up your minds, why don't we just -- I mean, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" The Dick Morris gizmo called Clintonism was a triangulated centrism rigging an elaborate system of moral weights and counterweights to balance itself safely at the center of the conflicted American heart. Thus, for example, the leftish diversity-monger from Hope canceled welfare as we know it. "We are two nations," the novelist John Dos Passos wrote many years ago. Is that it? Or are we one nation, so intricately balanced in its impulses, so symmetrically cracked down the middle, that we cannot decide whether we are compassionate conservatives or fascist bleeding hearts? It's not that George Wallace was right long ago and Ralph Nader is correct now that there's not a dime's worth of difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Allowing for inflation, there's several dollars' worth. But the American heart has long since outgrown the old simplisms in which the parties tend to think, in which the lefties and righties of talk radio and television tend to bray and hoot. Bill Clinton instinctively grasps the truth of the new American sympathies. One thinker who understands them perfectly is Alan Wolfe, a sociologist who has done admirable research in the cross-grained, complex American attitudes toward gay rights, abortion and other signature issues of the millennium. So the great American rhinoceros has become a brilliant tightrope walker. Who imagined that the greatest power Earth has ever known could balance its corpulent corporate self so exquisitely and walk across the bridge into the twenty-first century as if toeing a cable over the abyss? The blessing of the election of 2000 may be that no one emerges from it with "a mandate," for mandates are an invitation to simple-minded zealotry. The Gingrich Republicans thought they had a mandate after the 1994 elections. They played it hard and stupid; look at the grief they quickly came to. So let not the passive-aggressives of the whining and victim-singing entitlement left believe that the American people have franchised them to expand their big-government-paradise dreams. And let not the primitives and polluters of the screw-'em-all right start drilling for oil in Yellowstone or mass-producing electric chairs. I say that this sublimely split decision is proof of the collective intelligence and sanity of the American electorate. Of course, either the Bush team or the Gore team will eventually be installed -- unless they take a suggestion that I made months ago and effect a kind of giant corporate merger establishing for themselves a co-presidency, with one of them taking care of business in the Oval Office while the other presides over the sleek new corporate headquarters in someplace like Seattle or Portland. But barring a mega-merger, the new administration (with Congress delicately balanced) may find itself locked in that exquisite immobility of moderation that may have been the goal of the voters' collective unconscious. In any case, at the end of four years, President Gore or President Bush will have to deal with Senator Hillary Clinton, who will be scaling the White House fence with grappling hooks and claiming the old manse for her own. 2000 Time Inc. ELECTION LINKS: Results VIDEO Latest video Speeches/ads Celebrities Video Search Discussion Battlegrounds States Presidential bios Where They Stand THE STATES Who are your elected officials? What is the past presidential vote and number of electoral votes in your state? What are the presidential primary results and exit polls? Find out with these state political and election facts. WHAT'S AT STAKE What's at stake in Election 2000 Senate Overview House Overview Governors Overview Top races for governor Top Senate races Top House races VIDEO Latest video Speeches/ads Celebrities Search BIOGRAPHIES Read biographies of the major presidential and vice presidential candidates. WHERE THEY STAND See where George W. Bush and Al Gore stand on the major issues. RACES If you need to know who's up in 2000 and what seats are open, launch this quick guide. BATTLEGROUNDS Take a look at our interactive map and background briefing on the 'battleground states' -- the states in play for the 2000 presidential election. ELECTORAL MAP View our interactive popup of CNN's electoral vote analysis going into the presidential election. POLLS Dig into our poll archives. COMMUNITY Chat Message boards Feedback WEB WHITE AND BLUE Allpolitics.com is a partner in the Web White and Blue rolling cyber-debate, a daily online exchange among the major presidential candidates. Look for twice-daily updates Sunday through Friday until election day. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Sri Rama das <sriramadas (AT) home (DOT) com> An: Harsi <Harsidas.he (AT) t-online (DOT) de>; Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net <Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; (Bhakta) Oleg Demtchenko (Mayapur Education - IN) <Oleg.Demtchenko (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Datum: Donnerstag, 9. November 2000 20:24 Betreff: RE: death sentence for inocents >|That seems to be another of this strange curiositys typically for the US like >|their vote system. Which, like one would probably see soon, although the >|majority of the citizens of that state voted for one president, they will >|probably be governed against their will by another president, whom the >|majority did not voted for. >| >|What would Prabhupada say about this? Probably demon-crazy system or? >|Where does this strange system come from? > >As bizarre as the U.S. electoral system is, there is a logic behind it. Without >going into the details, the system is designed to balance the political power of >those who live in rural areas against city dwellers. > >A common problem afflicting democracies is the fact that the easiest and least >expensive way to win an election is to address the needs and desires of voters >who live in big cities. Because so many people are concentrated in a small area, >they have similar needs and are easy to reach. When this is the case, it can >cause serious economic and social distortions. > >For example, this has affected the distribution of food in Mexico for decades. >Politicians in power make sure that the city-dwellers have plenty of food at >prices they perceive as reasonable. This is accomplished by artificially >controlling the prices paid to farmers in the countryside, thereby keeping >them -- and everyone else in rural areas -- impoverished. However, it kept the >PRI party in power for over seventy years. There have been many similar >occurrences around the world. > >However, the U.S. system can cause an unexpected results under rare >circumstances -- although it has happened only once, about 100 years ago, that >the loser of the popular vote became president. > >The result of the current election now depends on the recount of votes in the >state of Florida. Although the recount of Tuesday's vote will be completed in >about four hours, the final count will not be over until November 17, when the >tally of absentee ballots cast overseas is done. Even then it may not be >finished, as there is a dispute over 19,000 ballots cast in one Florida county >which were thrown out because the voters accidentally voted for more than one >candidate (due to a poorly-designed ballot). Since those people overwhelmingly >intended to vote for Gore, this is not likely to be settled without the typical >protracted American legal battle. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 >As bizarre as the U.S. electoral system is, there is a logic behind it. Without >going into the details, the system is designed to balance the political power of >those who live in rural areas against city dwellers. A very interesting analizes of the situation. But could something which was designed two hundred years ago be still up to date now? >However, the U.S. system can cause an unexpected results under rare >circumstances -- although it has happened only once, about 100 years ago, that >the loser of the popular vote became president. I heard also that the last time such a thing as now happend in the american elections was when another son of a former president run for presidency himself. It seems the american heart is split when it comes to coronate a new prince. It seems some don-t like kings. >The result of the current election now depends on the recount of votes in the >state of Florida. Although the recount of Tuesday's vote will be completed in >about four hours, the final count will not be over until November 17, when the >tally of absentee ballots cast overseas is done. Even then it may not be >finished, as there is a dispute over 19,000 ballots cast in one Florida county >which were thrown out because the voters accidentally voted for more than one >candidate (due to a poorly-designed ballot). Since those people overwhelmingly >intended to vote for Gore, this is not likely to be settled without the typical >protracted American legal battle. Democracy can be very fascinating, at least not boring. The collective masses thinking themselves to be the ultimate controler. If they would only know that they are just a tiny spark of light encaged in a sack of bones on a small spot caled NY on a mustard seed called Earth in a buket full of mustard seeds, called univers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > > > 92,000 voters in Florida don't agree with you position here prabhu. Had Nader > > been allowed to address the citizens of America who only get their news on > > TV, he might have made a bigger difference in the election. > > Had the military industrial shill sent out to co-opt the environmentally > conscious > vote, Al Gore, not given the deceptive appearance that he is enviroment > friendly > ,, Nader would have gotten a lot more. > > Gore visited a toxic waste incinerator site in pre election 1996 that was being > built within a few thousand feet of a school, right on the banks of the Ohio > River, and assured the political activists there that under a Clinton Gore > administration it would never be allowed to operate. It opened on schedule. Actually that was 1992, before they took office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 On 11 Nov 2000, Harsi wrote: > Democracy can be very fascinating, at least not boring. That's not why democracy is appreciated. The explosion of a nuclear bomb is also fascinating. > The collective masses thinking themselves to be the ultimate controler. Do you really think that? Ultimate controller! > If they would only know that they are just a tiny spark of light encaged in > a sack of bones on a small spot caled NY on a mustard seed called Earth in a > buket full of mustard seeds, called univers. > Again what makes you think that they are not aware of this dimension? What really do you want to say? First of all masses don't think, it is the individuals who think. So maybe you are saying that some of them, or most of them are ignorant, and therefore the one who are left, those who know that there are just "a tiny spark of light encaged..." cannot be taken in account. Or are you saying that westerners are just not aware of this? I can see your good wish but it gets somewhat obscure by your negativity on the subject; a subject you describe by attributing to the masses weird superlative comportment and thinking. Was this your intention or have I mistaken you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 On 9 Nov 2000, Harsi wrote: > I wonder what would be the karmic implications when someone got executed due > to > the power of a state and than it came out that this person was not guilty of > this particular crime. Who would be implicated due to the law of karma in > that "crime" of killing an inocent person? The state authoritys personally > or the state colectively? > The man who injected the poison, or put someone on the electric chair? > Or, like it is practiced in Russia shot the "innocent" in an inatentive > moment of his, in his room in prison? Here is something that may give some clue for the above queries??!! I wonder what it may be..... >From SB Canto 1. According to Manu, the great author of civic codes and religious principles, even the killer of an animal is to be considered a murderer because animal food is never meant for the civilized man, whose prime duty is to prepare himself for going back to Godhead. He says that in the act of killing an animal, there is a regular conspiracy by the party of sinners, and all of them are liable to be punished as murderers exactly like a party of conspirators who kill a human being combinedly. He who gives permission, he who kills the animal, he who sells the slaughtered animal, he who cooks the animal, he who administers distribution of the foodstuff, and at last he who eats such cooked animal food are all murderers, and all of them are liable to be punished by the laws of nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 In a message dated 11/13/2000 7:55:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg writes: << He says that in the act of killing an animal, there is a regular conspiracy by the party of sinners, and all of them are liable to be punished as murderers exactly like a party of conspirators who kill a human being combinedly. >> This is not the same thing at all. The court system is not necessarily a conspiracy to kill human beings. Is a war a conspiracy to kill? Sometimes it may be. Each individual involved in any action that will take the life of another has a motive that may or may not be honest. It seems to me that it is that intent that generates a particular karmic reaction, not the act itself. It is best to avoid karma altogether is it not? Trying to determine another's karma is not useful, everything that is not transcendental generates some karma, good or bad the result is still separation from the Absolute Truth. There is no real comfort in generating good karma. yhs Kanti dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 >This is not the same thing at all. The court system is not necessarily a >conspiracy to kill human beings. Is a war a conspiracy to kill? Agreed. It is not the same thing. People who eat meat say that they are not actually killing. Somebody else is killing. That is why Satra clearly tells who all are implicated in the killing of an innocent animal. The second case (court) even though is not a conspiracy but if they kill an innocent person, out of ignorance (ignorance of laws is no excuse), they still have a serious karmic reaction. That is why the court system has to be perfect, atleast to the extant an innocent person is not punished. That is why the law says that many criminals may get away unpunished. But one innocent person should not be punished. (Originating from manu Samhita?? I wonder) The third case, war and court are also not the same thing. > Sometimes >it may be. Each individual involved in any action that will take the life >of another has a motive that may or may not be honest. It seems to me that >it is that intent that generates a particular karmic reaction, not the act >itself. No. Both the act and intent generates karmic reaction. Ignorant act may result in less reaction, may be intentional act results in more karmic reaction. >It is best to avoid karma altogether is it not? Trying to determine >another's >karma is not useful, everything that is not transcendental generates some >karma, good or bad the result is still separation from the Absolute Truth. >There is no real comfort in generating good karma. yhs Kanti dasi Yes, Yes and Yes. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2000 Report Share Posted November 13, 2000 > > Here is something that may give some clue for the above queries??!! I wonder > what it may be..... > > >From SB Canto 1. > According to Manu, the great author of civic codes and > religious principles, even the killer of an animal is to be considered a > murderer because animal food is never meant for the civilized man, whose prime > duty is to prepare himself for going back to Godhead. He says that in the act > of killing an animal, there is a regular conspiracy by the party of sinners, > and all of them are liable to be punished as murderers exactly like a party of > conspirators who kill a human being combinedly. He who gives permission, he > who kills the animal, he who sells the slaughtered animal, he who cooks the > animal, he who administers distribution of the foodstuff, and at last he who > eats such cooked animal food are all murderers, and all of them are liable to > be punished by the laws of nature. Just to stir some discussion - IMHO, the fact that milk comes from a cow that is slaughtered after no longer being productive, makes drinkers of that milk part of the conspiracy to slaughter the cow unless they take steps to balance it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2000 Report Share Posted November 24, 2000 | |Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net |Re: death sentence for inocents |I wonder what would be the karmic implications when someone got executed due to the |power of a state and than it came out that this person was not guilty of this |particular crime. Who would be implicated due to the law of karma in that "crime" of |killing an inocent person? The state authoritys personally or the state colectively? |The man who injected the poison, or put someone on the electric chair? Or, like it is |practiced in Russia shot the "innocent" in an inatentive moment of his, in his room in |prison? The details of karma are impossible to understand because there are simply too many factors for the oridinary person to take into account. However, here are some general principles: 1) There's actually no question of an innocent person being punished. When this appears to happen, we know that the root cause is in the victim's past actions, though the exact source is normally too remote for us to understand (especially since the sinful act will usually have occurred in a past lifetime). Srila Prabhupada explained that capital punishment benefits the criminal by clearing away the sin and its reaction -- even to the point where the executed criminal is qualified for elevation to the heavenly planets. Ironically, when the government does not use capital punishment, the suffering of the criminal is increased. He suffers in prison in this life, and in a future life he must still be killed -- but he will die without knowing it is a punishment for a past crime. In other words, he will be punished when he appears to be innocent -- without a doubt, an additional suffering. 2) Srila Prabhupada tells us that a head of government receives a portion of the reactions to both the pious and impious deeds of the citizens. I don't remember the percentages. Presumably, other members of the government will share also. 3) I thinks its obvious that if a prosecutor or police official intentionally contributes to the condemnation of an innocent person, they are going to get the full brunt of the reaction. However, it also possible that an innocent person's conviction may be due to no fault of anyone, but is simply the fructification of the condemned's karma. 4) Democratic government present a special problem. Srila Prabhupada told us that if the voters elect unqualified leaders who generate or sanction sinful actions, the voters also share in the overall karma created. 5) Conversely, this would imply that if the citizens participate in saintly government, they are protected from these reactions. 6) The karmic situation of the executioner seems tough to analyze. Presumably, if he acts without attachment, ill-motivation, or undue cruelty, he would not be subject to overwhelmingly bad karma -- but would share the reactions along with the rest of the citizenry. However, we also know that any action not done for Krishna's service brings reaction. Manu Samhita therefore prescribes atonement for actions carried out in the course of one's daily activities and for unknown sinful acts. 7) Nations also accumulate karma and experience reactions as a unit. |In this way this student groups who are operating now in many cities of the |US have helped until now 83 persons who were already sentenced to death by |the state autorithies to regain their freedom from jail and their life, by |proving that they were inocent. Some were regaining their freedom after 20 |years of jail and a fiew weeks before they should be killed. | |We know the vedic system alows also the death sentence but in this modern |time the aplication of this can be very risky, isn,t it? |At least in many cases it can be very difficult to decide if someone is |indeed guilty of a particular crime. Actually, the majority of the persons who have their death sentences reversed remain in prison due to being convicted of other crimes which do not carry the death penalty. One thing I find reprehensible is that many, many police and prosecutors are fighting tooth and nail to prevent more convicts from obtaining post-conviction DNA tests. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net] [http://www.krishnagalleria.com] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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