ISKCON HAS BEEN FORMED FOR THIS PURPOSE

[Guest guest]

> >Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also. >Prabhupada:

> Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara >kaja ki.

> Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah.

>

> Here is the statement according to my understanding. Did I say anything

> different? All I said was let them be situated in what ever state they

> are, but they must chant. Same thing.

>

> ISKCON HAS BEEN FORMED FOR THIS PURPOSE.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

 

You left off the most important part of the Prabhupada reference which I

shall include now:

 

Prabhupada: "And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's

chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and...,

but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just

like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given

sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore

varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the

varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education."

 

What may I ask Prabhu is your feelings toward implementing a methodical

program for varnasrama-dharma within ISKCON. I am sure your guru can give

you the details of Prabhupada's four days of varnasrama morning walks from

1974 wherein he gives very explicit instructions to his then senior

disciples to "start varnasrama colleges within EVERY ISKCON center

IMMEDIATELY."

 

Prabhupada gave countless instructions to the "leaders" of his movement to

divide the members into the four divisions and provide education and

training according to the guna and karma. He never said it would be

automatic if we just chant Hare Krsna.

 

Prabhupada: "But in Kali Yuga they will think, "Because I have changed my

dress I have become a big sannyasi." (laughter) "Because I have got sacred

thread now I am a big brahmana." There must be regular training!"

Varnasrama morning walks 1974

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhuji,

 

Dandavata. Jai Prabhupada. All glories to Your Grace.

 

Srila Prabhupada is very consistant in his statements. Both in the

introduction of Srimad Bhagavatam which I posted (Ramananda Raya and Lord

Caitanya discussion), and the conversation between Satsvarupa Maharaj and

Srila Prabhupada you posted, the content is the same. There is absolutely

no difference. Both places he is saying the same thing. Without giving up

Varnasrama duties, one must add devotional service or Krishna to their Varna

and Asrama which any way they already have. What I mean is the 5th proposal

which Lord Caitnya accepts and when Srila Prabhupada says "Iskcon has been

formed for this purpose", and your quote

 

" Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also. >Prabhupada:

> > Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara >kaja ki.

> > Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah."

 

Prabhupad is saying the same. We have to take Srila prabhupada's teachings

in totality and not just one quote. Now what about the quotes I provided,

where Srila Prabhupada says, Varnasrama has been, is, and will be present in

all societies at all times in all ages. Krishna has already divided the

society. All we have to do is simply acknowledge the divisions. Whether

you label some one as brahmana or not he is a brahmana by guna and karma.

Srila Prabhupada also said ISKCON is a movement of Brahmanas and Vaishnavas,

and the government should not levy taxes on ISKCON members.

 

When Bhakti Vinod Thakur encouraged Bhakti Siddhanta to establish Daiva

Varnasrama the reason was the caste Brahmanas were telling Varnasrama is by

seminal descent, where as Bhakti Siddhanta was giving initiations to people

born in less than Sudra families. The caste brahmanas were telling how can

they be initiated as brahmanas when they were born in Sudra families. The

explanation given by Bhakti Siddhanta was, they were recognised as Brahmanas

according to Guna and Karma, where as those so called brahmanas born in

brahmin families were displaying sudra qualities according to their guna and

karma. Identifying the real brahmanas/Vaishnavas according to their main

quality of pleasing Krishna is the process of establishing Daiva Varnasrama.

That is my understanding. Similarly Srila Prabhupada might have initiated

some one as a brahmana, but today the seminal son of this brahmana may be

less than a Sudra by guna and karma unlike his father. So in ISKCON this

danger is there, like TP son may become a TP, or a pujari's son may become a

pujari etc, with out any respective guna and karma. This Srila Prabhupad

did not want. That is why he said establish Varnasrama in the society, so

that history does not repeat in ISKCON around the world as it happened in

Indian society. This is the understading he wanted all of us to get. Daiva

Varnasrama can be established in ISKCON by Diksha Vidhana according to

pancaratrika system. Not by seminal descent. That is the bottom line.

 

I think you are talking about Vedic system. Srila Prabhupada was shedding

buckets and buckets of blood for initiating disciples from the most fallen

places according to Pancaratriki system.

 

Bhag 4.31.10 ..........etc,...our krishna consciousnes movement adopts this

pancaratriki vidhi, as adviced by Srila Sanatana Goswami, who says,

 

"As bell metal, when mixed with mercury, is transformed to gold, a person,

even though not golden pure, can be transformed into a brahmana or dvija by

the initiation process......(please read the complete purport).

 

You have provided your quotes, with your understanding. I too have provided

my quotes with my understanding.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

> You have provided your quotes, with your understanding. I too have

> provided my quotes with my understanding.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

 

Yes. And that's fine Prabhu. This is where I stop beating a dead horse. I

have tried before on this conference to convince others like yourself of my

opinions regarding varnasrama-dharma and was similarly unsuccessful. This is

also the reason I left ISKCON over 17 years ago only to witness from outside

the degradation and criminal acts of abusive cheating leaders which the

silent and apathetic majority of ISKCON devotees have blindly refused to

remove for more than 20 years.

 

Judge a tree by its fruits.

[Guest guest]

> Now what about the quotes I provided,

> where Srila Prabhupada says, Varnasrama has been, is, and will be present

> in all societies at all times in all ages. Krishna has already divided

> the society. All we have to do is simply acknowledge the divisions.

 

 

Where in the world do you get off saying such speculative neophyte

statements? Maybe it would be best for you to inquire for awhile from the

other more experienced varnasrama followers on this conference (not

including myself as there are many others far more qualified than me).

 

You keep harping on this "simply do this or simply acknowledge that" when

Prabhupada in his very last days on this planet was very emphatic about the

importance of implementing varnasrama in a methodical, organized

educational/training manner where there was divisions made for proper

management. He said there was no need to give second initiation to everyone

and that even if they remained sudras they could obtain the perfection of

life.

 

So many detailed instructions on implementing varnasrama divisions in his

ISKCON, to start varnasrama colleges for EVERY devotee in EVERY center, he

said that he completed 50% of his mission and his ONLY regret was he did not

implement varnasrama and that this was now our mission to complete. He said

if a society does not implement varnasrama management and leadership only

chaos will prevail. Do we not see this result so clearly even after so much

hideous abuse of cows, children and women by so-called leaders who are

purveyors of a classless society? How big of a sledge hammer to the head

will it take?

 

Pretentiousness precludes one from humility by which one could truly see the

truthful path for the good of all.

 

Krsne matir astu,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

Bhadra Govinda Das wrote:

 

> We have to take Srila prabhupada's teachings

> in totality and not just one quote.

> Now what about the quotes I provided,

> where Srila Prabhupada says, Varnasrama has been, is, and will be present

> in all societies at all times in all ages.

 

This reasoning is a bit like that of the doctor who tells a sick man that

"There are many medicines which could cure your disease. These are good

pills,these could be of help, too, and what about these over here?" If the

doctor wants to cure the particular condition of his patient he has to

prescribe *the* specific medication which will help in this particular

instance. Simply listing various remedies will not do.

 

Similarly, simply listing various quotes and pointing out that "but over

here Prabhupada also says this and over there he says that" will not clinch

the issue. Why? Because Prabhupada did, on different occasions, say

different, even contradictory, things to different people. This also applies

to the topic of varnashrama:

 

Yes, Prabhupada did preach the points you are emphasizing -that bhagavat

dharma is more important, that varnashrama is mostly catering to bodily

needs, that varnashrama without Krishna Bhakti is simply a waste of time

etc.

 

But then again, He also preached all the things that Janeshvara Prabhu is

highlighting - that Varnashrama is non different from Krishna Bhakti, that

we can and should worship the Lord by performing our particular occupational

duty according to our psychophysical nature and that only few people can

take to chanting 24 hours like Lord Caitanya and, therefore, "to make the

way easy" we have to introduce varnashrama in ISKCON by introducing

varnashram colleges in all ISKCON temples all over the world.

 

So if Prabhupada recommended both, which approach is to be favoured? Well,

first of all, if a person issues two instructions the one which was given

later overrides the earlier one. After 1974 Srila Prabhupada suddenly

started putting more and more emphasis on Varnashrama (which has been amply

illustrated in this conference), to the extent of saying that his only

lamentation was that he had not introduced varnashram.

 

Secondly,we have seen that stressing the philosophy that you are preaching

(just chant and the rest follows automatically) simply does not work.If a

process does not yield good results it is to be changed or given up.phalena

pariciyate. It seems that, after 1974, Srila Prabhupada gradually came to

this realization himself.

 

> Krishna has already divided

> the society. All we have to do is simply acknowledge the divisions.

 

Then why are the Vedas, Puranas and Dharmashastras filled with countless

instructions about the duties of the four varnas and ashramas. Then why did

Krishna go to gurukula and study 64 arts? Why did Arjuna practice archery

like a madman, sometimes even in the dead of night? Why did Nimai Pandita

open a school and why did Bhishma elaborately instruct Yudhisthira on the

duties of a king? Even the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the most

elevated devotees undergo training and education and you are saying that we

Kali yuga brahmanas simply need to acknowledge the divisions?

 

> Whether you label some one as brahmana or not he is a brahmana by guna and

> karma. Srila Prabhupada also said ISKCON is a movement of Brahmanas and

> Vaishnavas, and the government should not levy taxes on ISKCON members.

 

Would be nice if ISKCON would be a movement of brahmanas because brahmanas

are by definition very realized, happy, contented and peaceful people and

where there are real brahmanas there is also peace and prosperity. Please

dont get me wrong there are plenty of wonderful brahmanas in ISKCON and I

bow down to their lotosfeet but ISKCON also has plenty of simple minded

people who are not learned or business minded people or people who are

mostly interested in power. And some such people are artificially trying to

live like brahmanas or are artificially forced by immature temple managers

to try and live like brahmanas. This is wrong. It will never work. After

some time such people will crash and fall back down to their natural level

of existence, but only after causing a lot of disturbance to themselves and

to others.

 

So ISKCON should stop trying to prematurely elevate people to the level of

brahmanism. Practically speaking, this means that only a few saintly and

renounced people should be encouraged to live in the temple. The rest should

live outside and should mostly serve the Lord by performing the duties of

their varna and their ashrama. They should chant as much as they can and

should visit and support the temple as much as they can but by no means

should they be encouraged to take full initiation unless they are brahmanas

by nature in the first place.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

Dear Anantarupa dasa:

 

Namaste. Jaya Prabhupada!

 

Your following comments are some of the nicest and encouraging words I have

read in a long, long time. Thank you. It warms the heart of this old goat.

 

Actually, I hear in your words some of my old friend Harikesha's influence.

He and I would discuss varnasrama at length in the mid seventies and he had

a firm grasp on it. I miss him. I hope he is well.

 

Krsne matir astu,

 

Janesvara dasa

 

 

> Bhadra Govinda Das wrote:

>

> > We have to take Srila prabhupada's teachings

> > in totality and not just one quote.

> > Now what about the quotes I provided,

> > where Srila Prabhupada says, Varnasrama has been, is, and will be

> > present in all societies at all times in all ages.

>

> This reasoning is a bit like that of the doctor who tells a sick man that

> "There are many medicines which could cure your disease. These are good

> pills,these could be of help, too, and what about these over here?" If the

> doctor wants to cure the particular condition of his patient he has to

> prescribe *the* specific medication which will help in this particular

> instance. Simply listing various remedies will not do.

>

> Similarly, simply listing various quotes and pointing out that "but over

> here Prabhupada also says this and over there he says that" will not

> clinch the issue. Why? Because Prabhupada did, on different occasions, say

> different, even contradictory, things to different people. This also

> applies to the topic of varnashrama:

>

> Yes, Prabhupada did preach the points you are emphasizing -that bhagavat

> dharma is more important, that varnashrama is mostly catering to bodily

> needs, that varnashrama without Krishna Bhakti is simply a waste of time

> etc.

>

> But then again, He also preached all the things that Janeshvara Prabhu is

> highlighting - that Varnashrama is non different from Krishna Bhakti, that

> we can and should worship the Lord by performing our particular

> occupational duty according to our psychophysical nature and that only few

> people can take to chanting 24 hours like Lord Caitanya and, therefore,

> "to make the way easy" we have to introduce varnashrama in ISKCON by

> introducing varnashram colleges in all ISKCON temples all over the world.

>

> So if Prabhupada recommended both, which approach is to be favoured? Well,

> first of all, if a person issues two instructions the one which was given

> later overrides the earlier one. After 1974 Srila Prabhupada suddenly

> started putting more and more emphasis on Varnashrama (which has been

> amply illustrated in this conference), to the extent of saying that his

> only lamentation was that he had not introduced varnashram.

>

> Secondly,we have seen that stressing the philosophy that you are preaching

> (just chant and the rest follows automatically) simply does not work.If a

> process does not yield good results it is to be changed or given

> up.phalena pariciyate. It seems that, after 1974, Srila Prabhupada

> gradually came to this realization himself.

>

> > Krishna has already divided

> > the society. All we have to do is simply acknowledge the divisions.

>

> Then why are the Vedas, Puranas and Dharmashastras filled with countless

> instructions about the duties of the four varnas and ashramas. Then why

> did Krishna go to gurukula and study 64 arts? Why did Arjuna practice

> archery like a madman, sometimes even in the dead of night? Why did Nimai

> Pandita open a school and why did Bhishma elaborately instruct Yudhisthira

> on the duties of a king? Even the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the

> most elevated devotees undergo training and education and you are saying

> that we Kali yuga brahmanas simply need to acknowledge the divisions?

>

> > Whether you label some one as brahmana or not he is a brahmana by guna

> > and karma. Srila Prabhupada also said ISKCON is a movement of Brahmanas

> > and Vaishnavas, and the government should not levy taxes on ISKCON

> > members.

>

> Would be nice if ISKCON would be a movement of brahmanas because brahmanas

> are by definition very realized, happy, contented and peaceful people and

> where there are real brahmanas there is also peace and prosperity. Please

> dont get me wrong there are plenty of wonderful brahmanas in ISKCON and I

> bow down to their lotosfeet but ISKCON also has plenty of simple minded

> people who are not learned or business minded people or people who are

> mostly interested in power. And some such people are artificially trying

> to live like brahmanas or are artificially forced by immature temple

> managers to try and live like brahmanas. This is wrong. It will never

> work. After some time such people will crash and fall back down to their

> natural level of existence, but only after causing a lot of disturbance to

> themselves and to others.

>

> So ISKCON should stop trying to prematurely elevate people to the level of

> brahmanism. Practically speaking, this means that only a few saintly and

> renounced people should be encouraged to live in the temple. The rest

> should live outside and should mostly serve the Lord by performing the

> duties of their varna and their ashrama. They should chant as much as they

> can and should visit and support the temple as much as they can but by no

> means should they be encouraged to take full initiation unless they are

> brahmanas by nature in the first place.

>

> ys Anantarupa das