I have a guru... What does that mean?

[theist]

Most if not all spiritual practioners will admit the necessity of having a guru, guide, teacher, savior.

 

But what does it mean to have a guru?

 

I have been thinking about this. Then I turned it around and it made more sense to me. It seems to me we have a guru to the corresponding degree that we give ourselves to the instructions of the guru.

 

In other words the real question is not do I have a guru but rather, "Does my guru have me?"

 

Thoughts? What does having a guru mean to you?

[Guest guest]

You're a very interesting fellow. Good brain and a nice humble attitude. You make this forum a more interesting place, and I look forward to reading your posts. I respect your privacy, so don't want to pry or anything; but would you mind if I asked where you live - no address or anything - but might you be from or dwell in California? If so, Berkeley or San Francisco or nearby? Are you from the 60's or 70's, by the way? Did you ever follow or believe in the revolution? Just wondering because I'm trying to get a handle on just who we're talking to here in a roundabout way. No need to answer, of course; please don't be offended, just curious what generation you might be from and whether or not you still to some of the aformentioned ideals or not. Over they years I've noriced that a lot of devotees go back to where they come from after being somewhat disillusiosned or disappointed about the way thigs have gone or are going in ISKCON, so they synthesize a bit with their past; and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just wondering how devotees will morph in the coming years and whether or not they will blend and integrate for the better or what. Please don't be offended by any this talk or these questions. I'm just trying to be realistic and see what's going on because so many original devotees are gone - well not gone, but are alone, or in hiding, or in the closet for now. That may very well be a sign of intelligence too, so don't feel shy if you seem to fit or undertand what I'm saying here. Others may comment as well, but there's no need for yelling or criticizing, please, just some genuine exchange towards a better understanding among us all. Thanks.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

You're a very interesting fellow. Good brain and a nice humble attitude. You make this forum a more interesting place, and I look forward to reading your posts. I respect your privacy, so don't want to pry or anything; but would you mind if I asked where you live - no address or anything - but might you be from or dwell in California? If so, Berkeley or San Francisco or nearby? Are you from the 60's or 70's, by the way? Did you ever follow or believe in the revolution? Just wondering because I'm trying to get a handle on just who we're talking to here in a roundabout way. No need to answer, of course; please don't be offended, just curious what generation you might be from and whether or not you still to some of the aformentioned ideals or not. Over they years I've noriced that a lot of devotees go back to where they come from after being somewhat disillusiosned or disappointed about the way thigs have gone or are going in ISKCON, so they synthesize a bit with their past; and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just wondering how devotees will morph in the coming years and whether or not they will blend and integrate for the better or what. Please don't be offended by any this talk or these questions. I'm just trying to be realistic and see what's going on because so many original devotees are gone - well not gone, but are alone, or in hiding, or in the closet for now. That may very well be a sign of intelligence too, so don't feel shy if you seem to fit or undertand what I'm saying here. Others may comment as well, but there's no need for yelling or criticizing, please, just some genuine exchange towards a better understanding among us all. Thanks.

 

 

One devotee told me, that some devotees have the 'Party Spirit'. I guess devotees know what that is, but this devotee told me that it has to be avoided. I am still not reallu sure what it means, as I asked him 10-15 times. And I am still clueless. Maybe somebody can explain it? ?

 

Not sure what it's goto do with the thread, but serving Guru means. ..

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Most if not all spiritual practioners will admit the necessity of having a guru, guide, teacher, savior.

 

But what does it mean to have a guru?

 

I have been thinking about this. Then I turned it around and it made more sense to me. It seems to me we have a guru to the corresponding degree that we give ourselves to the instructions of the guru.

 

In other words the real question is not do I have a guru but rather, "Does my guru have me?"

 

Thoughts? What does having a guru mean to you?

 

My personal thought is same as what it says in Sastra. If you please Krishna devotees, Krishna is pleased.

 

Recently I been having troubles (i always do). And it shames me to say it. But I feel Krishna never listens to a word I saw, so I ripped His ears off (because He is deaf). Well He is now. His picture has no ears. After this I felt a bit ashamed, so a devotee recently gave me Nitai-Gauranga dieites. And I though 'this could be a good time to install them' you know..

 

I did, Krishna still has His ears cut off. I think it's very unsual how this happened. So I think Krishna hears only Guru (the pure devotee). People like me have no chance in hell. He never listens, except to His devotees. That's why we need a Guru.

[theist]

 

You're a very interesting fellow. Good brain and a nice humble attitude. You make this forum a more interesting place, and I look forward to reading your posts. I respect your privacy, so don't want to pry or anything; but would you mind if I asked where you live - no address or anything - but might you be from or dwell in California? If so, Berkeley or San Francisco or nearby? Are you from the 60's or 70's, by the way? Did you ever follow or believe in the revolution? Just wondering because I'm trying to get a handle on just who we're talking to here in a roundabout way. No need to answer, of course; please don't be offended, just curious what generation you might be from and whether or not you still to some of the aformentioned ideals or not. Over they years I've noriced that a lot of devotees go back to where they come from after being somewhat disillusiosned or disappointed about the way thigs have gone or are going in ISKCON, so they synthesize a bit with their past; and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just wondering how devotees will morph in the coming years and whether or not they will blend and integrate for the better or what. Please don't be offended by any this talk or these questions. I'm just trying to be realistic and see what's going on because so many original devotees are gone - well not gone, but are alone, or in hiding, or in the closet for now. That may very well be a sign of intelligence too, so don't feel shy if you seem to fit or undertand what I'm saying here. Others may comment as well, but there's no need for yelling or criticizing, please, just some genuine exchange towards a better understanding among us all. Thanks.

 

Yeah I know what you mean about people falling back into old grooves. Impressions run deep.

A little bio is OK but I am trying not to dwell in my own past and by doing so keep it alive so to speak. Living in Berkeley. I guess I am from the 60's but didn't meet a sankirtana party until late 70 and started chanting with them. I would go out and sell my "underground" papers promoting anti-war views and revolution and unfortunately a lot of leftist hate speech mixed in. One day I went to my favorite corner and the devotees were in spot chanting. I listened to them for a long time just standing there watching them from across the sidewalk fascinated. Then I started going without my papers just to meet them and talk a little. One day as I was standing across the sidewalk from them I started chanting with them a little, or trying to as i couldn't understand all the words. Then I figured if I was going to chant along I may as well stand with them. I then joined the kirtana and one mataji gave me a mantra card and told me "Krsna is non-different from His names". Krsna-vilasini wouldn't remember me but she is a kind of guru to me. That was a very important moment in my life. Then one day I went to the Temple for a Sunday feast and got more involved.

 

My views on things were really changed by Prabhupada's teachings in a way that I could not go back to my old patterns and beliefs but many have become just more developed by KC. For instance my distrust of the drive to own things which I had before characterized as a capitalist disease I now see in it's true light as Spiritual Communism. One owner, Sri Krsna, and not the state.

 

One thing I can't stand is this over sentimentalism many people have with the sixties. There were good times and and a lot of turmoil also.

 

One thing that hasn't changed is that I still keep to fringe side of the Hare Krsna movement. Sometimes a little more in and sometimes a little more out. Maybe that is way this forum is so important to me. Even though I don't fit in to any camp or matha I can still come here, meet people and hear and talk about the Lord in a way that is not available anywhere else, 3D or cyber and it fits well with my urban hermit lifestyle. I needn't even leave my cave. =

 

That's it for my bio but thanks for asking. Your question took me back to the moment when I was first given a mantra card and taught to chant. Now I just need to understand the part about "Krsna is non-different from his names".

 

Haribol

[bija]

Quote by Theist: I have been thinking about this. Then I turned it around and it made more sense to me. It seems to me we have a guru to the corresponding degree that we give ourselves to the instructions of the guru.

Possibly Guru can mean many things to the disciple, depending on our level of realisation. Presently this seems to be how it is for me. And as realisations of Guru grow and develop in my heart, my perceptions of who Guru is will develop.

I think GaurangaKrsna knows our needs more than we know ourselves. So if we are sincere in a spiritual life and search for Guru, I feel the Lord will grant us the presence of a Guru suitable for our specific qualification. Or, the Guru will understand our situation well, and impart knowledge to us that is suitable. As we grow spiritually, Guru will reveal to us more of the message of divine love when we are ready to understand.

I think it has been said that Guru is one. So Guru's divine teaching may come from various sources. And as we progress in understanding the Lord will guide us to these sources. And in our heart we will recognise them. So for me Guru is not a stagnant thing. But saying this, we may stop at some point in our lifetime if this is the Lord's specific wisdom and will for us.

I think this is why we should honor and respect each individuals position in life, even if they may be situated in a different tradition. And we should be grateful, that by some good fortune and grace our hearts are open to the GaurangaKrsna conception of Godhead.

Also not to forget, the Lord in the heart. To think of such wonderful devotees as Bhaktivinoda Thakura and their intimate dealings with Guru is a profound thing. The Lord in the heart being Guru that we all have access to, and can grow in relationship with.

[theist]

 

So I think Krishna hears only Guru (the pure devotee). People like me have no chance in hell. He never listens, except to His devotees. That's why we need a Guru.

 

I know what you mean but then again He is the Guru and hears every little movement of our mind's desires, even those which we ourselves are unaware of.

 

"He walks but does not walk... He is far away but very near as well."

 

 

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[bija]

Quote by Theist: One thing that hasn't changed is that I still keep to fringe side of the Hare Krsna movement. Sometimes a little more in and sometimes a little more out. Maybe that is way this forum is so important to me. Even though I don't fit in to any camp or matha I can still come here, meet people and hear and talk about the Lord in a way that is not available anywhere else, 3D or cyber and it fits well with my urban hermit lifestyle. I needn't even leave my cave. =

Srila Prabhupada's writings are redefining for me many of the ideals I had developed about the world. Saying this, I feel I still carry around alot of these ideals and that they do not promote the inner peace that Krsna consciousness does. For me Srila Prabhupada is a master teacher, and his words build on or redevelop many of the ideals which got me into so much trouble. But in a much more balanced way. I still have a long way to go to find that peaceful path and Srila Prabhupada has the key. For me he is a major siksa guru, and turning point. But the journey is progressive and ongoing so I am open to siksha as it reveals itself. Not so much, as I choose it to satisfy my own desires, but as it reveals itself by grace. This is an important key for me I feel.

 

Anyway, this Fellowship is a place I have found that I can in some way fit in. Looking around for some years on forums, I watched this Fellowship for a couple of years on and off, and realised that it was non-sectarian and much more diverse than some other Hare Krsna forums that I had observed.

It seems to be a good place for an open mind. This I like.

[mahak]

Haribol, and great poser, theist. What a meditation for a may afternoon out here in neverland.

 

Here is what I came up with, Having a guru means the guru having me. We all say we are of jesus, but jesus acknowledges thuis, and some who say this are verily rejected because we fail to do the will of He whom has sent Jesus. So, having a guru means having a transcendental and reciprocal loving relationship with Him (her). It is not enough saying I have a guru, and Srila Prabhupada confirms this in a lecture in London, 1975 (presented in Science of Self Realization). Srila Prabhupada mentions that the devotee should analyze the guru to see if such a person can be served with rapt attention, and the guru analyzes the disciple to see if such a person is fit to receive the gifts gurus offer. Therefore, this reciprocation of loving exchange between guru and disciple is the whole equasion.

 

Srila Prabhupada also makes this analogy that confirms the above. A fertile woman and impotent husband = no conception. A potent man and infertile wife = no conception. Both parties must be potent and fertile, then procreation exists without problem. Similarly, the Spiritual master is not in a vacuum, there is no bonafide spiritual master without the bonafide disciple. There is no proper vaisnava who follows a rascal guru. Both must be empowered for the miracle of Krsna Consciousness to take place.

 

So, having a spiritual master means, to me, that I fall down and beg, oh please, Gurudeva, accept me as your ward.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS, yeah, he is a great theist, doncha think? Perfect topic, thanks for engaging me so.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

I know what you mean but then again He is the Guru and hears every little movement of our mind's desires, even those which we ourselves are unaware of.

 

"He walks but does not walk... He is far away but very near as well."

 

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Yes, but He hears. And He tells us to go to Guru (so He can speak) thru Guru, because it pleases Him that we worship Guru (His devotee). I once talked with a Muslim and said you pray to Mohammed, the Islamic person said yes we do, but we go directly to Allah, Allah doesn't need anybody as a medium. Then I said but how would you have known about Allah without Mohammed? They still maintained that they don't need a medium. So they were saying they don't need a Guru (but still they happen to have a Guru). Anyway I don't really understand what they were trying to tell me. Still they do have a Guru nevertheless. That nobody can deny.

 

I don't think we can do anything without Guru, even if we have internal Guru (holy spirit, paramatma). He will just tell us to go to a Guru. It's a good thread, made me think about my own Gurudeva. (When I say that I mean Prabhupada, Bhakti Vaibhava Puri, Narayana Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja, Lord Nityananda, Lord Gauranga, Madhvacharya, Hanuman, Lord Shiva, Narada Muni, Shankracharya, Gopa Kumara (from going beyond vaikuntha, Prahladha Maharaja, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, usually.. I only mention Pure Gurus. I do get what I need from disciples. But right now I am misunderstanding some things. So I am going VERY slowly and making sure I have actually understood totally and not simply thinking I have (that’s the worse thing,) When you think you have understood something for years, then you find out you were wrong. Better I think we say we don't really understand and let devotees (chastise!!) Us. Then pretend to understand.

[bija]

quote Pankaja: It's a good thread, made me think about my own Gurudeva. (When I say that I mean Prabhupada, Bhakti Vaibhava Puri, Narayana Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja, Lord Nityananda, Lord Gauranga, Madhvacharya, Hanuman, Lord Shiva, Narada Muni, Shankracharya, Gopa Kumara (from going beyond vaikuntha, Prahladha Maharaja, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, usually.. I only mention Pure Gurus. I do get what I need from disciples. But right now I am misunderstanding some things. So I am going VERY slowly and making sure I have actually understood totally and not simply thinking I have (that’s the worse thing,) When you think you have understood something for years, then you find out you were wrong. Better I think we say we don't really understand and let devotees (chastise!!) Us. Then pretend to understand.

Good to have you back Pankaja. Some things you say remind me of the journey: that if I am naive in days, or wise in years, no matter what people might say; I hope I can still wear my heart on my sleave.

Aspiring for the land of no material ego....Bija the Fool.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

quote Pankaja: It's a good thread, made me think about my own Gurudeva. (When I say that I mean Prabhupada, Bhakti Vaibhava Puri, Narayana Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja, Lord Nityananda, Lord Gauranga, Madhvacharya, Hanuman, Lord Shiva, Narada Muni, Shankracharya, Gopa Kumara (from going beyond vaikuntha, Prahladha Maharaja, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, usually.. I only mention Pure Gurus. I do get what I need from disciples. But right now I am misunderstanding some things. So I am going VERY slowly and making sure I have actually understood totally and not simply thinking I have (that’s the worse thing,) When you think you have understood something for years, then you find out you were wrong. Better I think we say we don't really understand and let devotees (chastise!!) Us. Then pretend to understand.

Good to have you back Pankaja. Some things you say remind me of the journey: that if I am naive in days, or wise in years, no matter what people might say; I hope I can still wear my heart on my sleave.

Aspiring for the land of no material ego....Bija the Fool.

 

Yes there is a lecture somewhere called 'Don't be proud of your intelligence'. It says in it..

[krsna]

HIDE YOUR GURU

 

By Madhavananda Das

 

This article appeared in issue number 17 of Sri Krishna Kathamrita Bindu:

 

 

 

In Hari-bhakti-vilasa, verse 2.147, Srila Sanatan Goswami quotes

Sammohana-tantra:

 

gopayed devatam istam gopayed gurum atmanah

gopayec ca nijam mantram gopayen nija-malikam

 

One should hide one's ista-deva, one should hide one's guru, one should hide

one's mantra, and one should hide one's japa-mala.

 

Wise persons keep their valuables in a confidential place. Similarly, an

intelligent sadhaka does not advertise his or her guru, nor do they

broadcast themselves as disciples of their guru. Considering themselves as

low, fallen, and unfit to be considered disciples, sincere devotees do not

want to advertise who their guru is.

 

Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami has illustrated the mood of a devotee and

disciple:

 

jagai madhai haite muni se papistha

purisera kita haite muni se laghistha

 

I am more sinful than Jagai and Madhai and even lower than the worms in

stool. (Cc. adi 5.205)

 

Similarly, Thakur Bhaktivinode has stated:

 

garhita acare, rahilama maji',

na karinu sadhu-sanga

laye sadhu-vesa, ane upadesi,

e bada mayara ranga

 

Remaining absorbed in abominable activities, I never kept company with

sadhus. Now I adopt the garb of a sadhu and act out the role of instructing

others. This is maya's big joke. (Saranagati 7.3)

 

Although Thakur Bhaktivinode had so much association with elevated

vaisnavas, including his siksa-guru Jagannath Das Babaji Maharaja, he did

not flaunt that. Rather, he considered that, na karinu sadhu-sanga - "I have

never had association with sadhus".

 

The essential principle in being a disciple is to follow the order of the

guru. Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami has described:

 

acaryera mata yei, sei mata sara

tanra ajna langhi' cale, sei ta' asara

 

The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life.

Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes

useless. (Cc. adi 12.10)

 

Similarly, it is stated in the Raghu-vamsa:

 

sa susruvan matari bhargavena

pitur niyogat prahrtam dvisad-vat

pratyagrhid agraja-sasanam tad

ajna gurunam hy avicaraniya

 

Being ordered by his father, Parasuram killed his mother, Renuka, just as if

she were an enemy. When Lakshman, the younger brother of Lord Ramachandra,

heard of this, He immediately engaged Himself in the service of His elder

brother and accepted His orders. The order of the spiritual master must be

obeyed without consideration. (verse 14.46, quoted in Cc. madhya 10.145)

 

Srila Thakur Bhaktivinode has described that there are two types of

disciples, the antarmukha-sisyas and the bahirmukha-sisyas. Antarmukha

literally means "inward-facing". It refers to someone who is introspective.

Bahirmukha literally means "outward-facing", and refers to someone who is

absorbed in external things.

 

Antarmukha-sisyas are desirous of bringing pleasure to their guru. Their

focus is on following the guru's instructions. The antarmukha-sisyas

practice gopayed gurum atmanah. They keep their guru and their relationship

with him confidential. An antarmukha-sisya is not interested in advertising

himself as a disciple of his guru, but prefers to follow the guru's

instructions. His meditation is to try to understand what will please his

guru. The antarmukha-sisya is anartha-mukta-avastha, he is free from

anarthas. His vision of guru is known as sevya-darsana. He sees that guru

should be served and pleased.

 

Bahirmukha-sisyas are disciples who practice the opposite of gopayed gurum

atmanah. They are absorbed in advertising their guru and in making a show of

themselves as being big or intimate disciples. Such a disciple is also known

as guru-giri, or one who makes a business out of guru and one's relationship

with guru. They are not absorbed in the inner intention of guru. Srila

Bhaktivinode Thakur has described persons who act on such an external

platform as dharmadhvajis ("religion flag-wavers"), meaning those who make a

hypocritical or pretentious show of religiosity.

 

Following the logic of atmavan manyate jagat (everyone thinks like I do),

the bahirmukha-sisyas consider that their guru thinks like they do. Because

they are motivated by the desires for fame and adoration they think that

their guru also wants such things. The bahirmukha-sisyas are

anartha-yukta-avastha, they have anarthas, material desires, in their

hearts. Because of those anarthas they only see guru in terms of their own

pleasure. This vision is known as bhogya-darsana. They think that making a

big show of devotion will impress their guru and enable them to come close

to their guru. Their idea of guru-bhakti is to loudly proclaim to the world,

amar guru jagad-guru - "My guru is the best or the only one and any other

guru is lesser." They think that such publicizing will please their guru.

Neglecting or minimizing their guru's instruction regarding the worship of

Krishna, the bahirmukha-sisyas place more emphasis on worshiping their

spiritual master.

 

In the histories of all the major religions of the world it is commonly seen

that the followers prefer to worship the guru, prophet, or founder rather

than follow the instructions of that prophet to worship the Lord (who is

unseen and unknown to them). Srila Prabhupada addressed this topic on a

morning walk in Bombay on 29 March 1974 when some devotees mentioned to him

that some of the followers of Swami Narayan were chanting the name of their

guru instead of Krishna's name:

 

Devotee: In England they are chanting, "Swami Narayan," not "Krishna".

 

Prabhupada: Just see.

 

Indian man (1): No, they are also krsna-bhaktas.

 

Devotee: How are they, if they are chanting Swami Narayan's name?

 

Indian man (1): They actually work for the Krishna only, and they...

 

Prabhupada: No, no. Krishna recommends sastra, harer nama, harer nama, harer

namaiva kevalam. So why they should chant "Swami Narayan"? ... In the

Bhagavad-gita it is said, satatam kirtayanto mam - Krishna. Why should one

chant any other name? Krishna says satatam kirtayanto mam. Hare Krishna. Not

any other name.... But they are chanting "Swami Narayan." They're saying

Swami Narayan is better than Krishna. What kind of preaching is this? ...

This is nonsense. People will go to the temple and the preacher will say

that Swami Narayan's name should be chanted....

 

Indian man (2): Swami is their guru and Narayan is God, so both, Prabhupada

and Krishna, Prabhupada and Krishna, Prabhupada Krishna...

Prabhupada: But that does not mean they should chant [like that]. Just like,

we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami,

Bhaktivedanta Swami." No. They're chanting Hare Krishna. hari-tvena

samasta-sastrair uktah - "Guru is respected as good as Krishna." But that

does not mean I shall teach them to go and chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta

Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami." What is this? We are

teaching, "Chant Hare Krishna." Harer nama, harer nama...

- Srila Prabhupada morning walk, 29 March 1974, Bombay.

 

Although the antarmukha-sisyas, who follow the instructions of guru, get the

full blessings of guru, the bahirmukha-sisyas do not get the proper result.

In this connection Srila Jagadananda Pandit has written:

 

gorara ami gorara ami mukhe balile na cale

torara acara gorara vicara laile phala phale

 

It is not enough to repeatedly advertise that one is a devotee of Mahaprabhu

by saying, "I am Gaura's! I am Gaura's!" Rather, those who follow the

practices taught by Mahaprabhu are understood to get the results of being

the Lord's follower. - Prema-vivarta 8.6

 

Sometimes we see that bona fide spiritual masters allow themselves to be

advertised in order to preach. However, this is done in service to Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu. Such personalities are not materially desirous of receiving

prestige from their disciples. The daksina, gift, that the guru wants is

jnana-sandesah - the sincere search for spiritual knowledge (Bhag.

11.19.39).

 

As the ideal guru, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has taught us how to please the

spiritual master. Mahaprabhu instructed His followers:

 

yadi ama prati sneha thake sabakara

tabe krsna-vyatirikta na gaibe ara

 

If you really love me, then you should love My instructions: Don't think of

anything but Krishna. Don't utter any name but Krishna. (Caitanya-bhagavat

madhya 8.27)

 

Understanding that his spiritual master is always with Krishna, the

antarmukha-sisya knows that by chanting Krishna's name he will come closer

to his guru. In the Vamana-kalpa, Lord Brahma explains:

 

yo mantrah sa guruh saksad yo guruh sa harih svayam

 

One should understand that the mantra one has received from the guru is

identical with the guru and that the guru is identical with Lord Hari.

(cited in Srila Jiva Goswami's Bhakti-sandarbha, anuccheda 237.8)

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has described:

 

atha guroh sri-pada-dvandva-bhaktim

 

The holy name gives devotion to the guru. (Padyavali text 24)

 

Historically, the sadhu-samaja, the society of saintly vaisnavas, has never

been impressed with mere external shows of devotion. They are moved,

however, when they see the genuine vaisnava humility and other good

qualities that have manifest in a devotee due to that devotee's dedication

to the instructions and bhajan given by guru (guru-nistha). Hence,

introspective devotees prefer to keep their guru hidden and glorify him by

exhibiting exemplary behavior.

 

For some devotees, pushing their guru is an easy way to avoid facing the

reality of their own lack of advancement. They want respect, and they think

it is easier for them to get it by broadcasting themselves as a disciple of

a great personality than for themselves to manifest the qualities of a

vaisnava. However, this kind of cheating mentality will never attract the

attention of saintly persons. They are not impressed with whom we have taken

initiation or instructions from. Rather, they want to see what is our own

level of realization.

Since such neophytes equate the showing of respect to themselves with the

showing of respect to their guru, when they become chastised or fail to

receive the honor and recognition they want, they accuse the devotees, "You

have offended my guru!" In this way, Kali, the personification of this age

of quarrel and hypocrisy, is able to enter the movement of Sri Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu and cause dissension, distracting them from their real business

of chanting and distributing the holy names.

 

So Srila Sanatan Goswami's instruction gopayed gurum atmanah - "One should

hide one's guru" - is advising devotees to go deeper in their relationship

with guru by basing that relationship on following the instructions about

service and bhajan that their guru has given.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe krishna,

 

Dear theist, I am penning this from a platform outside ISKCON.

 

The guru sishya relationship is explained in markata maarjaala nyaya.

markata - monkey

maarjaala - cat

 

A sishya is supposed to be attached to a guru like a baby monkey tightly holds its mother. A guru is supposed to be attached to his sishya like a mother cat wherever it goes takes its baby cat in its mouth.

 

its a two way relationship.

 

Radhe krishna

[theist]

vrajavasi, thanks for that. Those are very good examples I will try to remember.

 

Haribol

[theist]

WOW, What a great article by Madhavanada das. I saved it to file. I printed it. Now it is time to read it again.

 

Dandavats to Madhavanada das.

[Kulapavana]

In Hari-bhakti-vilasa, verse 2.147, Srila Sanatan Goswami quotes

Sammohana-tantra:

 

gopayed devatam istam gopayed gurum atmanah

gopayec ca nijam mantram gopayen nija-malikam

 

One should hide one's ista-deva, one should hide one's guru, one should hide

one's mantra, and one should hide one's japa-mala.

----------------------------

 

that usually means: do not make a show of your spiritual life

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

In Hari-bhakti-vilasa, verse 2.147, Srila Sanatan Goswami quotes

Sammohana-tantra:

 

gopayed devatam istam gopayed gurum atmanah

gopayec ca nijam mantram gopayen nija-malikam

 

One should hide one's ista-deva, one should hide one's guru, one should hide

one's mantra, and one should hide one's japa-mala.

----------------------------

 

that usually means: do not make a show of your spiritual life

Does that apply to forums?

 

I think hide means from people who don't know about Krishna, I would never tell an outsider about

Prabhupada. Only about Bhagavad-gita. That's it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Does that apply to forums?

 

 

 

 

when we speak (or post) among devotees to seek a deeper understanding we should write openly what's on our mind. but when we present ourselves as big devotees, disciples of such and such famous guru, worshipers of such and such Thakura, we are only making a show of our devotion, and that is to be avoided.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

when we speak (or post) among devotees to seek a deeper understanding we should write openly what's on our mind. but when we present ourselves as big devotees, disciples of such and such famous guru, worshipers of such and such Thakura, we are only making a show of our devotion, and that is to be avoided.

How do you know its a show. It could be that a disicple is 'proud' (happy) to have such a Guru.

 

When do we get a chance like this?

 

If we are humble and think I have such and such, then we are probably highly elevated.

 

I am PROUD to have a Guru. And I am not highly elevated. Hare Krishna.

[theist]

 

I am PROUD to have a Guru. And I am not highly elevated. Hare Krishna.

 

Perhaps you can tell us what it means to have a guru Pankaja.

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Perhaps you can tell us what it means to have a guru Pankaja.

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Somebody you can trust.

Somebody who can talk with Krishna about me.

 

Who can look after me. (spritually not materially)

 

Bascially even though far, He always near. (very near!)

[theist]

 

Somebody you can trust.

Somebody who can talk with Krishna about me.

 

Who can look after me. (spritually not materially)

 

Bascially even though far, He always near. (very near!)

 

That's a good attitude. But Kulapavana was talking about something different. Sometimes people take a guru as an accessory to show off to impress people with. You know how some people will strut around with a purebred dog on a lease.

 

Very different. I really like your answer.

[Kulapavana]

 

I am PROUD to have a Guru.

 

I think that pride should be internal. "You have to hide your love away" as they used to sing...

[krsna]

 

I think that pride should be internal. "You have to hide your love away" as they used to sing...

 

 

"If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a

devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions.

 

There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and

the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his

words of direction should be pride of the disciple.”

 

~CC Adi 1.35