Projection of World?

[Guest guest]

Friends, Namaste,

  I am back with a doubt again.

  The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of self ignorance. And

  Once Self Knowledge takes place the world “disappears or vanishes”.

  My question is:

  Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to mind?

  Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent (udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

  Warm regards

  Mani

  

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

           

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>   My question is:

>   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

>   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent

(udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

>   Warm regards

>   Mani

 

 

Namaste R-ji,IMHO,

 

Ultimately there is only the concept of ajativada, but having said

that, a hypothesis is drishti-srishti or 'creation' arising with

one's perception of it. An illusory 'I' creating an illusory world.

 

This really indicates that the common substratum itself is an

illusion. However it does show that even if we give the substratum

some validity for arguments sake, that 'All is One' and we all

perceive the same or similar world. With the proviso that we seem to

add to the illusion with the sutra of ego

thoughts.........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Friends, Namaste,

>   I am back with a doubt again.

>   The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of

self ignorance. And

>   Once Self Knowledge takes place the world "disappears or vanishes".

>   My question is:

>   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds or

individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to mind?

>   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent

(udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

>   Warm regards

>   Mani

>   

>

>

> R. S. Mani

>

>            

Namaste Sri Mani,

 

Where did you read or hear that Vedanta says

the mind (of the individual?) projects the world?

 

This is not what I have been taught.

 

The creation projects from Brahman through

the power of maya, and Brahman (although

being the material and efficient cause of

the creation) undergoes no change when

the creation projects.

 

So in my understanding this whole creation

is called Ishwara, and Ishwara includes everything,

manifest and unmanifest. 

 

Everything in the creation is ordered.

Everything takes place according to the laws

of Ishwara.

 

The mind of the individual may (and usually does)

project upon the events which are occuring in

the creation, certain interpretations in light

of that person's conditioning.

 

But this does not mean that the person is projecting

a world.  That person is projecting his/her interpretation

of events upon a world which already exists, and which

is functiong in reality just as it should, (according to

the laws of Ishwara.)

 

An individual mind does have the power to project a dream,

a day dream, or an imagination.  And it is this ability

which the teachings often point to as an illustration of

maya.  What Ishwara has to a total degree, the individual has

to a limited degree. 

 

Thus I can project a dream while I sleep.  I might be an

individual in the dream, or just a witness to

the whole thing.  Everything in the dream is made of 'me.'

I am the dream material. 

 

And when I wake up, and the dream and everything in it

has gone, it is clearly seen that nothing has

happened to me.  So it is in this way that the

individual mind has to power to project a world. 

 

And in terms of the creation, the individual mind can

have an interpretation of the events in the creation.

And that might be called the 'individual mind's projection,'

But it is a projection that is an interpretation of

events which are already, and empirically, unfolding.

The mind of the individual is not projecting the world. 

That's Ishwara's job. :-)

 

Regarding the world vanishing when Self-knowledge

takes place.  I've never heard that either.  And

certainly the jnanis whom I've had the great

priviledge to have met have never said that either.

 

The mind of a jnani has likes and dislikes just

as the mind of an ajnani does.  The very significant

difference regarding likes and dislikes being that

the jnani knows that the true source of happiness does

not have anything to do with individual preferences.

 

The creation continues for a jnani, but it is my

understanding that the jnani knows what the creation

truly is.  It is Ishwara.  It is divine.  It has

its own order of reality.  As an individual body/mind

the jnani knows I am part to the whole, and as Brahman

I am the whole from which the creation has come.

So there is no part of this creation which is away

from me.  In fact it is me.

 

Is it ultimately real?  Is it paramarthika satyam?

No.  But it is here, and it has its own order of

reality in which I, as individual body/mind sense

organs person, have a part, while knowing myself

to be Brahman which is the Self of the whole.

 

Pranams,

Durga

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Tonyji and Durgani,

  Thank you.

  I shall go through your mails on my return to my base, as I am leaving for an extended tour in South India, etc., and I may not have much access to a PC.

  Warm Regads,

  Mani

 

Tony OClery <aoclery > wrote:

  advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>   My question is:

>   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

>   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent

(udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

>   Warm regards

>   Mani

 

 

Namaste R-ji,IMHO,

 

Ultimately there is only the concept of ajativada, but having said

that, a hypothesis is drishti-srishti or 'creation' arising with

one's perception of it. An illusory 'I' creating an illusory world.

 

This really indicates that the common substratum itself is an

illusion. However it does show that even if we give the substratum

some validity for arguments sake, that 'All is One' and we all

perceive the same or similar world. With the proviso that we seem to

add to the illusion with the sutra of ego

thoughts.........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Friends, Namaste,

>   I am back with a doubt again.

>   The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of

self ignorance. And

>   Once Self Knowledge takes place the world "disappears or

vanishes".

>   My question is:

>   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

>   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent

(udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

>   Warm regards

>   Mani

>   

>

>

> R. S. Mani

>

>            

>Namaste R.S. Mani,

 

thank you for your interesting words...

 

maybe the effect of a working mind....let the world appear

(whenerver there is world....there is working mind)

 

the world...in all the diversity....let appear so also "other"

appearing individual minds.....

 

the individual perception of the world depends on the individual

relation of mind with the real nature....

the real nature which can be found deep inside oneself....with a

(calm) mind focused inside....

 

when the real nature is discovered....then the world appear to be as

what it realy is......and no more of what it seemed to be

 

the real nature then is what is real.....and the appearing

differences of/in/by the world....are all "same kind of" reflection

of the real nature....

 

so maybe there is only (one) "mind" by which world(s) appear.....in

all the diversity.....

 

this diversity (individualities) is only appearently diversity.....

 

 

few thoughts

 

Regards

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

"R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani > wrote:    Friends, Namaste,

   I am back with a doubt again.

   The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of self ignorance. And

   Once Self Knowledge takes place the world �disappears or vanishes�.

   My question is:

   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to mind?

   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent (udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

   Warm regards

   Mani

   

          Dear sir,

                        To my knowledge both the views can be gleaned from the different texts. But the question is, what suggests itself to our understanding as being conducive to self-enquiry. All of us are aware that only after the arising of the subject, that is the I, the phenomena arise. That there is a common substratum is at best a philosophy that helps in reconciling certain conflicting ideas, if we were to to the theory of the world being only the concoction of the individual subject as against that of the cosmic subject. Yogavasishta in most of the places s only to the notion that the world is a private dream, although the author does not strictly hold on to any position, but is concerned that we should disabuse our mind of the notion of there being a world independent of the Self. Vasishta does not seem to bother about the distinctions between the private hallucination and the common one, as he emphasises only the idea that a a mumukshu should

be concerned only in understanding the fundamentals. In Ramana's talks there is clear inference in  many places that the eka-jivavada theory is being d to. T.M.P. Mahadevan in his exposition of Pancadasi says that the author s to both the theories. It is not a question of the world vanishing which idea is rather naive. The absence of the world in deep-sleep does not enable us to understand our real nature. It is only a question of understanding that the phenomena do not have any independent reality other than the Self in the Light of which the variegated objects appear. But I feel that we need a lot of vairagya and meditation to understand these matters. Mere borrowed knowledge will help us only in answering intellectual questions.

yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana

Sankarraman

 

           

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran>

wrote:

>

>

>

> "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:    Friends, Namaste,

>    I am back with a doubt again.

>    The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of

self ignorance. And

>    Once Self Knowledge takes place the world �disappears or

vanishes�.

>    My question is:

>    Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

> 

>Vasishta does not seem to bother about the distinctions between the

private hallucination and the common one, as he emphasises only the

idea that a a mumukshu should

>  be concerned only in understanding the fundamentals. In Ramana's

talks there is clear inference in  many places that the eka-jivavada

theory is being d to. T.M.P. Mahadevan in his exposition of

Pancadasi says that the author s to both the theories.

 

Namaste R-Ji,

 

Ramana says that the Ajativada is the ultimate truth but the most

difficult to appreciate. He therefore advises people to entertain

the hypothesis of Drishti-Shristi Vada. The question you are posing

is much tied up with the ego or I thought, for it never wishes to

negate itself or its existence. One may not be aware of the creation

in deep sleep for it doesn't exist in full. What exists is the one

thought of ignorant bliss. The mind has withdrawn from the other

level of materiality and they have collapsed as not having existed

as in waking up from a dream.

So the problem stems from not being realised, and still entertaining

the 'I' thought. The I is believing that everything in creation is

existing whilst it was asleep. This is not so for the 'I' is an

illusion even in creation. So an illusion is making judgements on a

delusion!!

Does the personal dream state exist and the same dream continue when

one wakes up in the morning? No of course not, so each level has its

own temporary delusional validity that's all.

 

The question one should ask oneself is; Can the 'I' remember what

happened in the deep sleep state? Was it awake in the deep sleep

state? Can it narrate what it remembered?

The fact that all disappears in the deep sleep state just reinforces

the oneness of all even in illusion.  So the doubt is just the 'I'

thought grasping at straws, the thief in the palace that's all, it

feels threatened.........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote:

>

a

> delusion!!

> Does the personal dream state exist and the same dream continue

when

> one wakes up in the morning? No of course not, so each level has

its

> own temporary delusional validity that's all.

>

> The question one should ask oneself is; Can the 'I' remember what

> happened in the deep sleep state? Was it awake in the deep sleep

> state? Can it narrate what it remembered?

> The fact that all disappears in the deep sleep state just

reinforces

> the oneness of all even in illusion.  So the doubt is just the 'I'

> thought grasping at straws, the thief in the palace that's all, it

> feels threatened.........ONS...Tony.

>

Namaste,

 

Just to continue;

IMHO, The 'I' believing the world exists while it sleeps is an

attachment a grasping mechanism. For the 'I' identifies strongly

with the world and is reinforced in its belief of its own existence.

By believing that which it is attached to, exists in deep sleep.

This is an anchor for the ego and an impediment to realisation. For

it is the mind believing in the mind instead of using a thorn to

remove a thorn.............ONS...Tony.