Questions on poll results- Iskcon initiations

[theist]

I don't agree there is equal fault. The imposter guru is a predator in a sadhus cloth. Isn't the GBC there running their system to keep the imposter predators out in order to protect the innocent? It doesn't seem to be working so who needs them anyway. If the police force is corrupted by taking bribes how can the common citizen turn to them for protection? If the corrupt policeman misuses his position and exploits a citizen it is not enough to say, "Oh well it's the citizens karma to be exploited." That may be a factor no doubt but an honest person would try to get the imposter protector fired and jailed. We don't prosecute the victims of crime along with the perpertrator (sp?). You see my point.

 

It really is time for the GBC to get out of the guru business. We have the Lord in the heart so they are not required. Thanks anyway.

 

It's also humerous to hear defenders of Iskcons system blame to disillusioned disciples of a found out imposter guru by saying "Buyer beware." That says alot about what they think of their own system.

 

 

(edited for spelling correction)

[Guest guest]

 

I don't agree there is equal fault. The imposter guru is a predator in a sadhus cloth. Isn't the GBC there running their system to keep the imposter predators out in order to protect the innocent? It doesn't seem to be working so who needs them anyway. If the police force is corrupted by taking bribes how can the common citizen turn to them for protection? If the corrupt policeman misuses his position and exploits a citizen it is not enough to say, "Oh well it's the citizens karma to be exploited." That may be a factor no doubt but an honest person would try to get the imposter protector fired and jailed. We don't prosecute the victims of crime along with the perpertrator (sp?). You see my point.

 

It really is time for the GBC to get our of the guru business. We have the Lord in the heart so they are not required. Thanks anyway.

 

It's also humerous to hear defenders of Iskcons system blame to disillusioned disciples of a found out imposter guru by saying "Buyer beware." That says alot about what they think of their own system.

 

 

In this regard, see very recent Chakra.org discussions regarding Dhanudara Swami. This makes me so heart sick...I can no longer claim membership in an organization that still permits such persons to remain as members, much less as "spiritual leaders".

[vijay]

 

If the police force is corrupted by taking bribes how can the common citizen turn to them for protection? If the corrupt policeman misuses his position and exploits a citizen it is not enough to say, "Oh well it's the citizens karma to be exploited."

 

This cry baby mentality of no indvidual responsibility is the desease that has disabled so many people which we need to get out of. The police force nor the government can be choosen by us. Fortunately Krishna gave arjuna the choice to surrender to him or not. Arjuna asked some pritty intelligent questions. So did pariksit maharaj to sukadeva goswami. Prabhupada choose BST, Krishna since time immorial has given us intelligence who to surrender to or not. Some how devotees have got into ISKCON the welfare state, the quick fix that will find you a spirtual master and send you back mentality. No doubt some previous leaders and followers liked this arrangement but it goes against what prabhupada taught. The responsibility is the individuals. The sooner people are taught that the better.

 

You dont see prabhupada crying in his purports about how GM are corupt and they should change their system this way and that way. Actually they shouldnt have diciples, they should do it this way instead blah blah. He very infrequently talked about GM and only when he needed to both positive and negative.

 

 

That may be a factor no doubt but an honest person would try to get the imposter protector fired and jailed. We don't prosecute the victims of crime along with the perpertrator (sp?). You see my point.

 

I agree we should always do something about it, otherwise we are implicated. You watch a murder and dont do your duty then we are implicated by silience. Most people understand this. But the tricky part is what and how should one react. One can expose people that are grossly negligent fine, but when talking about who is bonifide how are you going to educate people? Prabhupadas books are suffecient but we lack people who realise what he is saying. Everyone has opinions on who is bonifide, but examples speak louder than opinions, its the only way, prabhupada speaks of no other way in his books. mental spcualtors and stratergist can do nothing really.

 

 

It's also humerous to hear defenders of Iskcons system blame to disillusioned disciples of a found out imposter guru by saying "Buyer beware." That says alot about what they think of their own system.

 

In any system buyer has to beware. If there was a full proof system where the buyer doesnt need to beware then Krishna would of introduced when he spoke to the sun god. The system is humbly approach guru(s) inquire submissively, then make your decision as arjuna did at the end of gita.

 

The GBC may introduce checks, procedures etc either wrongly or rightly, however the system is the same one that krishna describes in gita to get back home and find a guru.

 

We should definately fight for whats right in the right way and educate people to take personal responsibility not a welfare state, and we shouldnt get in to the below extract that I took from an email.

 

 

The agitated mind urges us to change our situation--in the universe, in society or at least within ourselves. Scripture compares the mind to the restless wind or to an impetuous, uncontrolled horse. Though the mind calls for change, change doesn't satisfy the mind. Change is taking place anyway-- life after life we change our cosmic, social and mental situations, sometimes getting the form of a Brahma, sometimes that of an ant. But throughout it all, the mind remains unsatisfied. Srila Prabhupada called this utopianism--a never-ending search for noplace, or Utopia (from Greek ou, "not" and topos, "a place"). Dissatisfaction of mind simply drives us onward in the cycle of birth and death. It is the human habit to resort to speculation to relieve ourselves of utopian anxiety. Speculation generates "new discoveries," and new discoveries inflate pride in human progress. But pride stands behind the mind's utopian anxiety: "this situation I'm in now isn't good enough for me. " Thus new discoveries breed new anxieties. For example, Roentgen's discovery of X-rays in 1895 sparked a revolution in medical and dental diagnostics. Now we are told that every year an alarming number of people contract cancer from medical and dental X-rays.

[vijay]

 

In this regard, see very recent Chakra.org discussions regarding Dhanudara Swami. This makes me so heart sick...I can no longer claim membership in an organization that still permits such persons to remain as members, much less as "spiritual leaders".

 

There are only 2 alternatives, if somethings broke then some can try and fix it, another can walk away thinking its impossible to fix or its beyond his expertise to fix. We all make our choices.

[Guest guest]

 

There are only 2 alternatives, if somethings broke then some can try and fix it, another can walk away thinking its impossible to fix or its beyond his expertise to fix. We all make our choices.

 

Srila Prabhupada walked away from the Gaudiya Matha.

[Guest guest]

Correct. The ritviks should do the same ... walk away from ISKCON.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada walked away from the Gaudiya Matha.

[theist]

 

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"This cry baby mentality of no indvidual responsibility is the desease that has disabled so many people which we need to get out of."

 

"Cry baby attitude"??? Is that what you call it. Someone cheats a soul who has been wandering in maya since time immemorial and who now is on the doorstep of finding Krsna and you call the victims "cry babies"?

 

I think we are miles apart on this one vijay.

[theist]

The perfect system is to teach the newcomer the way it really works to find guru. You ask Krsna to please reveal him to you. Simple for the simple. This is the ONLY 100% guarunteed perfect method, so why not just teach that?

 

Instead they are forced to work their way through some twisted contorted and concocted system born from the minds of the GBC. That is criminal and no amount of saying the victims were just paying their karma will get the perpertrators off the hook.

[Guest guest]

Yeah. There is a beautiful picture of this gurukuli boy receiving a cookie from Srila Prabhupada who just commited suicide. He was beaten severely by Dhanurdhar "swami" and had emotional scars for life. Vaisnava love Ki Jaya!

[Guest guest]

 

Yeah. There is a beautiful picture of this gurukuli boy receiving a cookie from Srila Prabhupada who just commited suicide. He was beaten severely by Dhanurdhar "swami" and had emotional scars for life. Vaisnava love Ki Jaya!

 

The destruction or serious impairment of another person's spiritual life has to be among the worst, if not the worst offense one can commit, whether it comes by physically violent means or not.

 

If, in accordance with our philosophy, one takes into account the reactions due for ordinary violence and abuse against a weak and undeserving other, and then adds the consequences of willful, repetitive, and unrepented Vaisnava-apharadha...the future for such a perpetrator is horrible beyond comprehension.

[vijay]

 

"Cry baby attitude"??? Is that what you call it. Someone cheats a soul who has been wandering in maya since time immemorial and who now is on the doorstep of finding Krsna and you call the victims "cry babies"?

 

I think we are miles apart on this one vijay.

 

As I explained in my previous post every living entity has a choice, some people went thru a crapy guru and they still choose krsna. Every situation we are put in is due to our own doings, every choice we make is due to our own doings. We shouldnt judge people but each person should understand this else we get a whole load of people blaming everyone else. Prabhupada could of creid at the situation and started doing phyco analysis of why his gurus institution fell apart, but he chose what ever is favourable for krsna.

 

We have choices every lifetime they might be on a plate in one life and difficult in others depending on our OWN doings and choices. This is our philosophy.

Some choose Krsna some choose maya by using their brain power to blame the cheater and not to see ones own faults. No one is innocent in this world not you nor i not anyone. The innocent soul will continue wondering this world until he is firstly accepts what is given by sastra in his heart and secondly he meets someone who can guide and nourish him. Thats where we come in, we cant blame the leaders and the foot soldiers for not being pure enough, but we can improve ourselves so we can help others.

 

If we really felt bad about all these souls that missed krsna we would try really hard to become krsna concious so we can really help souls get to krsna, other wise its just superficial moaning.

[vijay]

 

The perfect system is to teach the newcomer the way it really works to find guru. You ask Krsna to please reveal him to you. Simple for the simple. This is the ONLY 100% guarunteed perfect method, so why not just teach that?

 

Instead they are forced to work their way through some twisted contorted and concocted system born from the minds of the GBC. That is criminal and no amount of saying the victims were just paying their karma will get the perpertrators off the hook.

 

 

That is what is being taught in prabhupadas books, unfortunately people dont read attentively and follow the minds of others with so many theories. It would be simple for the simple but many people are complicated.

The GBC have their rules for what they believe is conducive for the functioning of the society, either wrongly or rightly it doesnt matter, ultimately, prabhupadas books are their for those who want guidance on spitual life.

I was thinking also how much does the gbc affect most of us really? Back in the days 90% where bramhacharis so dependent on the istitution but now its 95% grhstas, who go to the temple and do their services. What ive noticed is the obssession people have with the gbc and how some are so dependent on on every decision they make which has hardly any effect on ground zero. I see one of the reasons why preaching has died is people expecting the gbc to do 'something'. Its that victim mentality which has carried on from the past in places where the effect is now minimal.

[bija]

 

Quote by Guest The destruction or serious impairment of another person's spiritual life has to be among the worst, if not the worst offense one can commit, whether it comes by physically violent means or not.

About two months ago a devotee friend of mine came back from the Iskcon temple bookshop in the city with several new books. One book had a beautiful new cover and I thought what a nice book this would be to read. After reading of Dhanurdhara Swami's past violent behaviour with children on chakra.org I now reconsider. The book was written by him.

I am compassionate by nature, and do not know how Iskcon has dealt with this man. If they have not dealt with him properly my opinion of Iskcon management would be lowered very significantly and I would choose not to offer my heart and soul to them.

 

As I read the stories on chakra.org I was very saddened for his victims who still suffer today. It is very close to home.

 

As an 11 or 12 year old, very shy boy I entered my first year of secondary school education. The school was a Catholic Christian Brothers school and our teacher was an elderly Christian Brother. On the first day he gave us an explicit warning not to mess with him. From that day on, for the whole year he sytematically abused two boys, every day in front of the whole class. He would take them outside and bash the kids up against the classroom wall so all of us could hear. Very, very violent. He used verbal, psychological and physical violence. This particular Brother was never brought to justice for any of his offences, and God only knows how many he abused of the years.

 

I have clear memories of going to school each day and suffering severe anxiety each day he would come into the classroom in a raging mood and stinking of cigarettes and bash his "favorites". This abuse and some other incidents of abuse over the formative years of my life, deeply scarred me and , 24 years later I still live with an anxiety disorder to this day, and went through the whole process of illness and substance addiction for many years, which is a common experience of many victims.

 

This psychologically, verbally, and physically violent Chritian Brother played a sick game with young innocent kids. He was a member of a sporting club and knew my father at the time. He used to tell my father that I was a good kid, but was a time watcher and worrier. Truly a very sick man, covering his tracks.

 

So from my personal experience I hope that this Dhanurdhara Swami truly makes recompense. And if Iskcon management or whoever use that classic verse from scripture to brush things in the past, I would be greatly disappointed. Anyone I have approached about the violence I encountered, including family brush it away as insignificant. I find this totally pathetic. At the time of my schooling, ironically the chaplain priest was also molesting kids. He has just been charged two weeks ago. He was also very sick, but that is another story.

 

Maybe Dhanurdhara Swami has changed. Maybe he has spent alot of time thinking upon his actions and felt remorse. I hope so for his sake. But if my friend offers to loan me his book, I will politely decline.

[bija]

 

Every situation we are put in is due to our own doings, every choice we make is due to our own doings. We shouldnt judge people but each person should understand this else we get a whole load of people blaming everyone else. Quote by Vijaya.

 

We have choices every lifetime they might be on a plate in one life and difficult in others depending on our OWN doings and choices. This is our philosophy. Quote by Vijaya.

It is easy to say this is our philosophy. Please read my above post. Is it that the victims of this Christian Brother and priest, in some past life committed the same offences against the Brother and Priest or others.

I have heard this angle on the philosophy propounded many times. Dangerous territory really, using scripture or philosophy to explain away acts done by those in position of authority, which are totally unacceptable and an abuse of power.

 

I have to agree with Theist on this point,

The imposter guru is a predator in a sadhus cloth. Quote by Theist.

[vijay]

 

to hear defenders of Iskcons system

 

I also want to add Iskcon means different things to different people.

To some ISKCON mean the current and past management and devotees working in it. To others its a concept of devotees working together for the benifit of conditioned souls and themselves as prabhupada desired, to some a welfare system that provides your guru and care system, to others a oppertunity to do service and associate with devotees.

[vijay]

 

It is easy to say this is our philosophy. Please read my above post. Is it that the victims of this Christian Brother and priest, in some past life committed the same offences against the Brother and Priest or others.

I have heard this angle on the philosophy propounded many times. Dangerous territory really, using scripture or philosophy to explain away acts done by those in position of authority, which are totally unacceptable and an abuse of power.

 

I have to agree with Theist on this point, quote]

 

This is where people mix things up. If an abuse of anyone in society especially the vulnerable occurs then that should be dealt with in the proper harshest way. My conversation with theist is when people choose their gurus. Arrogantly claim to know whats pure, blindly surrender and not attentively read prabhupadas books and then they are encouraged by everyone to blame the fallen guru (obviously the guru is also at fault but this is obvious) rather than look at the mistakes they did. In stead they may go completely the other way where the say prabhupada only or caitya guru or some other system rather than take some of the responsibility and learn.

[bija]

Yes, I take your point and line of thought you were referring to Vijaya. I understand what you are saying. I just thought I would digress a little to broaden our perspectives and vision on the subject.

 

I think Theist made the point that the poor soul who has been battered by maya comes to the organisation for mercy. The last thing they need is obstacles. Maybe also due to their circumstance they may not be in the position to use thorough discernment and responsibility as you are espousing- many people approach Iskcon due to suffering (there may be impairments to use of discernment and maturity), the Gita also confirms that the suffering approach. So this is where I strongly feel that GBC need to be fully responsible in their teaching methods and actions. It needs to be self honest about it's leadership and to be fully humble. Not cultic.

 

It is sad that people have lost faith, or are cautious of Iskcon because of the errors of some. And unfortunately some go to extremes of being fully critical and attacking of the institution. But surely, the leadership has to be fully responsible for all members, including those who have erred greatly, and take appropriate actions. If they do not, is it any wonder people end up being in opposition against the institution, it's leaders and structure. And are weary if some of the Guru's are bonafide or not? Especially when some offenders are still in the position, that receives honor and Guru worship.

[theist]

 

This is where people mix things up. If an abuse of anyone in society especially the vulnerable occurs then that should be dealt with in the proper harshest way. My conversation with theist is when people choose their gurus. Arrogantly claim to know whats pure, blindly surrender and not attentively read prabhupadas books and then they are encouraged by everyone to blame the fallen guru (obviously the guru is also at fault but this is obvious) rather than look at the mistakes they did. In stead they may go completely the other way where the say prabhupada only or caitya guru or some other system rather than take some of the responsibility and learn.

 

The people only superfically choose their gurus. The GBC offers the list they can choose from. No one that has been in a temple a few months arrogantly runs around claiming to know everything. There are probably examples but most feel a real culture shock and are trying to adjust. In this state they absorb everything from their immediate association.

 

You say no one is innocent and I agree. From the heavens to the hells we are all sinners. But yet we are told the second class devotee preaches to the innocent and avoids the atheist. So of all those innocent people a rare soul comes forward for more and more and really begins to take to it. Are they not then the best of the innocent?

 

What if they were taught from day one that the way to find their guru was by Krsna's grace? Not the GBC's grace but Krsna's. They should also be taught that they have found guru in vani form just by coming to Prabhupada's teachings. How did they get there? Krsna's grace. So the principle is already active to a degree and for it to be fully realized we need to prayerfully and thoughtfully study those teachings. They should be taught that Krsna may bring many gurus into their lives and they must gain by internal direction the understanding of who is Krsna's representative fully and who is a mixed devotee and who is an exploiter. This wisdom comes from Krsna in the heart and not by the decree of some religious committee.

 

In Krsna consciousness there is no substitute for the real thing. Only Reality is real.

 

 

 

Yes if introspection as serious self-examination was taught from the beginning instead of relying on the dictates of the GBC that would be the case. But then if we relied only on Prabhupada's books and Caitya-guru then they would not have been in the mess in the first place.

 

This is not to say that one must avoid a spiritual master because he is physically present. That makes no sense whatsoever. This foolishness is what I was always getting from the ritviks and is the reason I must avoid them. Just because someone is "in" a body does not mean he is a cheater just like it does not mean he is bone fide by virtue of being physically present.

 

Why disagree on what I am saying and then say, people should "take some responsability and learn"?

 

That is exactly my point. If not by Prabhupada's books and Caitya guru as the way to learn what do you suggest? Becoming brainless and just surrendering to the GBC?

 

vijay, seriously, do you not see the contradiction?

[Hari Narayana]

 

This is what they are fed from when they join ISKCON. It is an institutional system where new recruits are trained in the belief that the GBC approved gurus are as good as God. When you are new and you go to a temple, and you see all the temple devotees worshipping Guru X every single day with the same things that they worship God, then it is only natural to conclude that Guru X is a liberated person. In South India this is a fact of ISKCON. Everyone is taught that the GURU is as good as God. The real fault lies in these people who know they are not liberated, but allow people to project them as liberated souls..

 

Yes. What Jndas says is very true. I have been living in South India for the past 15 years since my introduction to ISKCON. If someone doesnt believe in the GURU the temple authorities follow, that person will be gradually eliminated. They authorities never say it openly. But by behavioral actions the message is communicated to the person.

 

Why so much? Even if a follower/disciple of Guru X comes to a temple or happpens to live in a temple where the temple authorities follow Guru Y, (both Guru X and Guru Y are most respected in ISKCON), the Guru Y followers try to give the same message to the follower of Guru X. This follower/disciple will not be given independence to preach or cultivate the congregation. Guess what the fear is? The temple authorities believe, "If this guy is allowed to preach and cultivate, he will get all his cultivates to believe in his Guru rather than our Guru. If it happens then we can't control the devotees according to our whims!"

 

 

Another example, in Mumbai, everyone is systematically taught that Radhanath Maharaja is a pure devotee and as good as God. These are just facts of ISKCON today. There is absolutely no room or allowance for anyone to believe anything else while still being allowed to participate within ISKCON.

 

Very True. If someone doesnt believe in Radhanatha Maharaja as a pure devotee or doesnt want to take RNS as guru, and if his intentions are known to the followers of RNS, do you think they will allow this person and encourage him in thier Chowpatty temple?

 

"I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully." - Srila Prabhupada's letter to Kirtanananda, February 11, 1967

 

ISKCON is still far far away from this concept desired by Srila Prabhupada. The GBC may proclaim that they follow Prabhupada. But the reality is different. If one gets to the grass roots in ISKCON (South India), this pulse can be easily felt.

[vijay]

Im aware of groups in iskcon that have guru factions in places which is undeniable, there is definately a kanishta mentality in some places where people think my guru is the best. This can only be tackled by educating ourselves then others.

 

However brushing everyone to be like that without knowing them is bogus.

 

 

Very True. If someone doesnt believe in Radhanatha Maharaja as a pure devotee or doesnt want to take RNS as guru, and if his intentions are known to the followers of RNS, do you think they will allow this person and encourage him in thier Chowpatty temple?

 

This statement is false. I'stayed in chowpatty a couple of years ago, and I personally know of at least one devotee who from the begining took initiation from another guru and and made this very clear to me and everyone and he has been cared for by the ashram and now is a bramhachari there. I dont know why people love to see the externals and make their big big conclusions about everything and everyone, more arrogance/ignorance.

[vijay]

 

The people only superfically choose their gurus. The GBC offers the list they can choose from. No one that has been in a temple a few months arrogantly runs around claiming to know everything. There are probably examples but most feel a real culture shock and are trying to adjust. In this state they absorb everything from their immediate association.

 

This is not the case if you feel you can get better guidance from someone else not on the list theres nothing stopping you, you can even take diksa as long as the GBC are informed and say fine its okay in iskcon. Anyway im not going to get into the details as then everyone has their opinion on what a perfect system is. No doubt we dont have a perfect system, because the people arent perfect, gbc arent perfect the temple devotees aren't perfect so we see there is a need for perfect people. I can make my suggestions you can make yours, the prime thing needed is perserverance and purity from people trying to fix it, we have other conditioned souls in charge and if we can guide them then that will help, if you can become less conditioned that will help more. Opinions are dime a dozen.

 

 

You say no one is innocent and I agree. From the heavens to the hells we are all sinners. But yet we are told the second class devotee preaches to the innocent and avoids the atheist. So of all those innocent people a rare soul comes forward for more and more and really begins to take to it. Are they not then the best of the innocent?

 

Innocent in this context means those who arent offensive to krsna, not innocent in the sense they have no conditioning or karma.

 

 

Yes if introspection as serious self-examination was taught from the beginning instead of relying on the dictates of the GBC that would be the case. But then if we relied only on Prabhupada's books and Caitya-guru then they would not have been in the mess in the first place.

 

People are told form the begining to read prabhupadas books, Krsna gives guru, guru gives Krsna.

 

If you had a desease and you went to the chemist, you have a manual with you that gives the ingerdients of a good drug. A person may think i like the colour of this one il have this. He may get cheated, he may never want anything to do with drugs again and throws the book out. An humble guy may see he's mistake and this time read the book.

 

Another reads the book but ignores it.

 

Another follows the recomendation of others, he may get lucky or not. He needs to learn and not go round blaming everyone else.

 

Another may think according to the book he has the right one but reads the book in error, he takes the medicine, it works for a while stops working eventually but still carries on taking it even though the symptoms of this drug arent what is described by the book. This guy then concludes that all drugs are bogus. A humble guy will reliease that this isnt whats in the manual let me find a better drug.

 

Anyway the point is what should be taught in ISKCON according to my insignificant solution is read attentivley. Then you natuarlly discriminate the 3 types of devotees and qualify ourselves for finding purity. In my opnion reading attentively is always taught, the problem is most people dont do it.

Yes the system can always be better, prabhupada says dont expect utopia. The system is just a tool, its not your right, the tool may work or not work thats p to us. You may have one book on a desert island, if thats what krsna has given you use that.

 

 

Why disagree on what I am saying and then say, people should "take some responsability and learn"?

 

That is exactly my point. If not by Prabhupada's books and Caitya guru as the way to learn what do you suggest? Becoming brainless and just surrendering to the GBC?

 

 

Yes everyone should take responsibility and learn not just a few. Thats my point. I see everyone telling the mainly conditioned leadership to to learn but I dont see the rank and file who ahve got upset being told to learn and how to percieve the situation correctly.

 

I think prabhupadas books and caitya guru are always there for us to learn from but people are distracted by so many other things about how the gbc run how each temple runs etc etc. Prabhupadas books and caitya guru dont depend on any of these things they are available and always will be available. Prabhupada in his books doesnt say become brainless and surrender to anyone, he gives us the conduct and how we should act, and who we should surrender to. Our devotion is not dependent on any society or material condition no matter what excuses we give prabhupada said dont become fixated on the society dont expect utopia. Yes the situation can always be improved and thats what prabhupada wants but we should do something about it rather than endlessly moaning about our leadership if we arent going to take a leading role, prabhupada had to use people like jaytritha, kirtananda as tehy were the only ones who stepped up others can give lip service but who steps up?.

 

Fine people have tried to take the leading role like Gour govinda maharaj etc and they were persecuted, however even if he wasnt accapted during that time he has left us with so much, and he made a difference to so many peoples lifes. He didnt just winge about the system, he purified himself, spoke out and did something.

[vijay]

The order mahaprabhu gives is become guru, people need to be saved. There is no better solution to this and no impediment to this no matter what excuses are given the only real impediment is yourself.

[Guest guest]

Brilliantly written! With these few lines Vijay, you've captured the essence of the problem -

 

<<< "What ive noticed is the obssession people have with the gbc and how some are so dependent on on every decision they make which has hardly any effect on ground zero. I see one of the reasons why preaching has died is people expecting the gbc to do 'something'. Its that victim mentality which has carried on from the past in places where the effect is now minimal. >>>

 

I can't think of anything else to say. Your post says it all very eloquently.

 

 

That is what is being taught in prabhupadas books, unfortunately people dont read attentively and follow the minds of others with so many theories. It would be simple for the simple but many people are complicated.

The GBC have their rules for what they believe is conducive for the functioning of the society, either wrongly or rightly it doesnt matter, ultimately, prabhupadas books are their for those who want guidance on spitual life.

I was thinking also how much does the gbc affect most of us really? Back in the days 90% where bramhacharis so dependent on the istitution but now its 95% grhstas, who go to the temple and do their services. What ive noticed is the obssession people have with the gbc and how some are so dependent on on every decision they make which has hardly any effect on ground zero. I see one of the reasons why preaching has died is people expecting the gbc to do 'something'. Its that victim mentality which has carried on from the past in places where the effect is now minimal.

[Guest guest]

There are real victims of the GBC and the GBC does nothing. They could easily ban Dhanurdhar swami, but don't. What does that tell you? They have been protecting this child abuser for years. Thats spiritual authority for you.

[theist]

 

Innocent in this context means those who arent offensive to krsna, not innocent in the sense they have no conditioning or karma.

 

Yeah that has been the point all along.

 

You can keep your GBC approved only guru system if you like. When it comes up I will continue to suggest that people rethink that position. It looks like gambling to me.

 

This has become a game of many words and I think not very productive so I will not be responding in any detailed way.

 

Hare Krsna

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