Questions on poll results- Iskcon initiations

[vijay]

 

 

You can keep your GBC approved only guru system if you like. When it comes up I will continue to suggest that people rethink that position. It looks like gambling to me.

 

Hare Krsna

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If you look back through my posts, i havent condemned or condoned any system, systems, circumstances and people will continue to change rightly or wrongly. That has never been the point. The contention was that people are misled. Agreed. Your solution is change the system as the above post suggests (which may or may not help). My view is there is a more fundemental problem of people not reading prabhupadas books and learning to choose their own spritual authority VERY CAREFULLY as prabhupada MANY times emphasises in the books. No one can lumber authority/guidance on to you its our choice to accept or reject, always has been and will be, and its clear from the books if read and assimilated properly, everyone has this oppertunity who takes it?

[Guest guest]

"I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully." - Srila Prabhupada's letter to Kirtanananda, February 11, 1967

 

The Self Realization Fellowship founded by Paramahansa Yogananda also works on the principle of the founder-acharya as the pure and central spiritual figure. Yogananda made it very clear to his disciples that there was to be no successor-acharya after he had passed away. SRF has suffered internal problems and personality-cult issues involving leaders, but as a whole has been very successful, both spiritually and financially, on a worldwide basis since Sri Yogananda's passing in 1951...they have never endured the huge problems that ISKCON has.

 

Of course, Christianity as a whole now works on this principle, and has flourished for 2,000 years now...leaders come and go, but Jesus Christ is in the center as the supreme spiritual example and authority which a Christian can always keep faith in and have a personal relationship with, no matter how badly other human beings misbehave. Even though he named St. Peter as the person who would continue his church, Jesus made it clear that he was the acharya: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the father but by me".

 

Christianity, SRF, Ramakrishna Mission...all big successes and all based on the principle of the founder-acharya as the pure soul with which members can have a direct relationship, an inner relationship that will sustain even in times of human failure and greatest difficulty, and that is unobscured by the ambiguous position of "successors".

 

Prabhus, Srila Prabhupada must be unanimously elevated to this position...if he isn't, ISKCON will disintegrate, or survive only as scattered and fragmented remnants.

[vijay]

 

"I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully." - Srila Prabhupada's letter to Kirtanananda, February 11, 1967

 

Thanks for that, not seen that one before. The order of st francis of asisi is similar, devotees have the same aim but follow in a certain mood according to the founder. Looking at the history of ISKCON it clearly seems to of moved along to having prabhupada in the centre since the zonal acarya days. If there isnt a common basis then its easy for the founder acaryas society to split into guru factions.

[Guest guest]

No need to mimic Christianity or Ramakrishna mission. Gaudiya Vaishnavism has it's central figure in Mahaprabhu whose lila is called acharya lila. We also consider Rupa Goswami to be our leader under whom we all serve and thus we are called Rupanugas. We don't need man made systems or to vote anyone into any position.

 

Regarding false leaders and those who follow them - I have to agree with the assessment that the false leader is more condemnable. Real spiritual leadership is born of surrender and service. Krsna will inspire the sadhaka who is qualified from within to take up the responsibility of leading others.

 

Gaudiya vaishnavism is really about association. The Srimad Bhagavatam tells us about two bhagavatas - the book and the person - we can't accept one and reject the other. That is like accepting Lord Chaitanya and rejecting Lord Nityananda - if we take up this type of position we are lost with no standing in spritual life.

[Kulapavana]

 

No need to mimic Christianity or Ramakrishna mission. Gaudiya Vaishnavism has it's central figure in Mahaprabhu whose lila is called acharya lila. We also consider Rupa Goswami to be our leader under whom we all serve and thus we are called Rupanugas. We don't need man made systems or to vote anyone into any position.

 

(Srila Jiva Goswami - Bhakti Sandarbha, Paragraph 286)

 

tathA pITha-pUjAyAM bhagavad-dhAme zrI-guru-pAdukA-pUjanam evaM saGgacchate | yathA ya eva bhagavAn atra vyaSTi-rUpatayA bhaktAvatAratvena zrI-guru-rUpo vartate, sa eva tatra samaSTi-rUpatayA sva-vAma-pradeze sAkSAd-avatAratvenApi tad-rUpo vartata iti ||

 

"The worship of the Pitha in Bhagavan’s abode is conducted together with the worship of Sri Guru’s shoes. As Bhagavan assumes a localized form (vyasti-rupa) in His descent as Sri Guru in the form of a devotee, this form also appears as a direct descent on the left side of His collective form (samasti-rupa)."

 

Lord Caitanya is our Samasti Guru, everybody else is a vyasti guru in our sampradaya.

[vijay]

 

No need to mimic Christianity or Ramakrishna mission.

 

 

 

 

I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully

 

 

Looks like prabhupada doesnt mind mimicing their structure.

 

 

I have to agree with the assessment that the false leader is more condemnable

 

 

I agree with this the blind follower learns his lesson by being cheated, the guy that cheats goes to a hellish planet. Anyone that takes responsibility can either make rapid advancement or rapidily go down if they abuse their power. However that doesnt make the blind followers innocent they got the rectification they required. Krsna awards as we surrender to him. However if we abuse in his name then the reaction is more.

 

 

Gaudiya vaishnavism is really about association. The Srimad Bhagavatam tells us about two bhagavatas - the book and the person - we can't accept one and reject the other. That is like accepting Lord Chaitanya and rejecting Lord Nityananda - if we take up this type of position we are lost with no standing in spritual life

 

I havent read anyone on this thread say that we should give up the person bhagvat, only that we also follow the mood of a prominent acarya. Just like we are known as the followers of rupa goswami in our linage, or the followers of bhaktisiddhanta, in iskcon prabhupadas books and mood are the prime basis as he established himself, as the founder acarya.

[theist]

 

No need to mimic Christianity or Ramakrishna mission. Gaudiya Vaishnavism has it's central figure in Mahaprabhu whose lila is called acharya lila. We also consider Rupa Goswami to be our leader under whom we all serve and thus we are called Rupanugas. We don't need man made systems or to vote anyone into any position.

 

Please reference my signature quote below.

 

I would love to hear this point expanded upon. Mahaprabhu as Universial Guru.

 

I will start another thread for it.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

"There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaisnavas in this Krsna consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. There is no need to serve a jealous person who is in the dress of a Vaisnava." CC Madhya 1.218 purport

[bija]

 

Just like we are known as the followers of rupa goswami in our linage, or the followers of bhaktisiddhanta, in iskcon prabhupadas books and mood are the prime basis as he established himself, as the founder acarya.

Many of us are probably trying to be followers of all these. Out of interest, just thought I would mention Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

JNdasa or others: are there any places or temples in India where Bhaktivinoda is specifically honored and worshipped? Just curious.

If not, it would be nice to see some devotees build a small temple where he can be remembered, and his great contribution in the form of books, example etc. be meditated on.

[Guest guest]

 

Many of us are probably trying to be followers of all these. Out of interest, just thought I would mention Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

JNdasa or others: are there any places or temples in India where Bhaktivinoda is specifically honored and worshipped? Just curious.

If not, it would be nice to see some devotees build a small temple where he can be remembered, and his great contribution in the form of books, example etc. be meditated on.

[guru]

 

JNdasa or others: are there any places or temples in India where Bhaktivinoda is specifically honored and worshipped? Just curious.

There is a memoir of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura built on Yoga Pitha temple premises with a deity of Srila Bhaktivinoda. Since he was the one who discovered the real Yoga Pitha and help build a temple for Sri Chaitanya, devotees first worship him and pay their obeisances before worshipping Sri Chaitanya in His birth place.

[Hari Narayana]

 

This statement is false. I'stayed in chowpatty a couple of years ago, and I personally know of at least one devotee who from the begining took initiation from another guru and and made this very clear to me and everyone and he has been cared for by the ashram and now is a bramhachari there. I dont know why people love to see the externals and make their big big conclusions about everything and everyone, more arrogance/ignorance.

 

The point is not about just taking initiation from another Guru. The actual point is if the person doesn't believe RNS as a pure devotee but still wants to stay there or associate with the devotees there, will he be encouraged? Most likely he will not be. I think that was the point Jndas prabhu was trying to make here.

[vijay]

 

The point is not about just taking initiation from another Guru. The actual point is if the person doesn't believe RNS as a pure devotee but still wants to stay there or associate with the devotees there, will he be encouraged? Most likely he will not be. I think that was the point Jndas prabhu was trying to make here.

 

I still disagree with that. Firstly the point is one should spend sometime there before making some analysis that may be incorrect. From most people I've met they have the least guru sectarian mentality, As long as people know how to respect vaishnavas people are welcomed, no one has to declare someone pure that would be a foolish mentality there, that may occur elsewhere but havent seen it at chowpatty, they dont even talk about guru in that way,The diciples that I met of RNS do not even talk about him and encourage othes not to speak about him in a way that will make people feel uncomfortable, whats in their heart remains personal to them, and respect and encourage other peoples faith in the way they feel comfortable. Radhanatha swami's emphasis is of nice vaishnava dealings and being a servent. As long as one has some vaishnava culture and able to appreciate vaishnavas, simple and doesnt go round declaring people pure or unpure like some mad man they should be able to intergrate fine.

[Hari Narayana]

 

I still disagree with that. Firstly the point is one should spend sometime there before making some analysis that may be incorrect. From most people I've met they have the least guru sectarian mentality, As long as people know how to respect vaishnavas people are welcomed, no one has to declare someone pure that would be a foolish mentality there, that may occur elsewhere but havent seen it at chowpatty, they dont even talk about guru in that way,The diciples that I met of RNS do not even talk about him and encourage othes not to speak about him in a way that will make people feel uncomfortable, whats in their heart remains personal to them, and respect and encourage other peoples faith in the way they feel comfortable. Radhanatha swami's emphasis is of nice vaishnava dealings and being a servent.

 

I am surprised. This sounds idealistic!

[vijay]

Well from what ive seen its generally a really nice place, I used to think i was advanced and humble until i went their and met the brahmacharis felt like a spot on a white page, usually we dont realize how dark we are until our background is spotless, we may seem elevated when are association is not so elevated. I felt their humility and niceness where fake when i first got there and wanted to leave.

 

If one cant go there I thought this video done by someone i think external on chowpatty is a nice reflection on the principles the temple is built on. http://krishnaculture.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KC&Product_Code=STD&Category_Code=MISC

 

And some articles based on maharajs talks on how the temple has developed and its vision

http://www.namahatta.org/nh2/?q=en/node/149

[Guest guest]

 

But the problem is many, many people feel there is someone in ISKCON capable of guiding them, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. But if they believe this, they are banned, beaten and thrown out. This is again historical fact.

 

Thats tellin it like it is, Jaya!