Places where books need to be corrected?

[renuka]

Name one person in Sri sampradhaya who wants to change the books written by Sripada Ramanujacarya. There is a pastime of Sri Guruvayoor Appan in Kerala in this regard .

 

A guru had a foolish diciple who could not understand anything from the scriptures. The Guru tried to explain to him the topics about God which as usual he did not make much sense to the him. Ultimately Guru got frustrated and said that God looks like a bull. Next day when the diciple went to take dharshan of Sri Guruvayoor appan, He showed Himself as a bull.

Every morning and evening the Lord comes out of the altar to go on parikram inside the temple. That day the pujaris could not bring the small prarikram deity out of the deity room. Then this foolish diciple pointed out that the Lord needs to be carried sideways because His horns are too wide to pass through the door. THis pastime shows that faith inthe words of the Guru is Supreme. Even if it apprears wrong to our mundane intelligence it carries spiritual potency.

 

 

sakshad-dharitvena samasta-shastrair

uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih

kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

 

The

spiritual master is to be honoured as much as the Supreme Lord, because he is the most confidential servitor of the Lord. This is acknowledged in all revealed scriptures and followed by all authorities. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master, who is a bona fide representative of Sri Hari [Krishna].

 

So where is the question of speculation.

 

[vijay]

 

My only point is that Prabhupada's books should not be changed based on whims.

 

 

but I can clearly see that you are not, and neither are editors like Jayadvaita Swami

 

Prabhupadas books were edited on whims while he was physically present, he was furious. He wanted them changed back by people he trusted, prabhupada was aware its a long process, this was said a few months before his departure.

 

The people he trusted to re-edit them were not beyond mistakes prabhupada was also aware of this, but he trusted them and wanted them to do it more than anyone else. If anyone else thinks otherwise it is irrelevent. The only question is should his desire of been fulfilled after his disappearance as it was impossible to do it all while he was present for those few months. If so what are the timescales?

 

It seems that prabhupada wasnt aware of many of the faulty changes until it was bought to his attention by his dicsiples.

[Kulapavana]

 

Let us take this particular case one step further, by asking a question. Does anyone really know anything about what a Rajasuya Yajna is and what an Ashvamedha Yajna is beyond the words themselves? What is one composed of as compared to the other? What are the rituals involved in each, and what is the purpose of each. Are they mutually exclusive?

 

are you sure you want to go there? there are some rituals in some of the Asvamedha yajnas that can be very confusing to most people. at least three types of asvamedha yajnas are described in the Vedas, and one Rajasuya yajna, at least as far as I know. I can go into details, but I really see no point.

 

anyway, perhaps there is no need to discuss this matter any more.

 

in closing I would like to say, that as a former BBT translator, editor, book producer and distributor, I know for a fact that most of our books were produced in great haste and - unfortunately - it shows... there are errors there, or at least areas that need to be looked at. and not everybody who talks about the need for corrections or editing Prabhupada's books has some devious purpose in mind. I certainly dont. Thank you for listening. Dandabat pranams.

[Guest guest]

Having chosen English as the preferred language in the worldwide community of devotees, the BBT editorial board commissioned a secret feasibility study on ways of improving Srila Prabhupada’’s books. This plan can now be revealed.

 

Linguists around the world have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult -- for example, cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. The BBT editors have determined that what is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staffed at the top level by career editors such as Jayadvaita Swami and Dravida Prabhu.

 

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, shange-vadis in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' since both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of BBT site workers, but keyboards kould be made with one less letter.

 

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it kould be annoused that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'filosophy' twenty per sent shorter in print, which translates into big savings for the BBT publishers.

 

In the third year, akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. The editors would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a deterent to akurate speling. And, we would al agre with the editors that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the language is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend.

 

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replsing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from words kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

 

Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis, and evrivun vud fin it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

 

Zen, ze drems of ze BT editrz vud finali hav kum tru!

[Guest guest]

Either I haven't been getting out much, or zat is ze funniest thing I have heard in years.

 

REZISTANZE IZ FUTILE !! YOU VILL KOMPLY !!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Very few people (let alone scholars) actually think Mahabharata describes events from a different kalpa when it comes to the story of Pandavas.

Sri Veeraraghavacharya has stated this in his Ramayana Bharatadi Thaneeshlokam. Veeraraghavacharya, a great acharya after Ramanuja, is also cited many times by Srila Prabhupada as an authority.

 

I would be interested in which Vedic scholars you have spoken to, to arrive at the conclusion that Vedic scholars do not accept this position.

 

 

are you sure you want to go there? there are some rituals in some of the Asvamedha yajnas that can be very confusing to most people. at least three types of asvamedha yajnas are described in the Vedas, and one Rajasuya yajna, at least as far as I know. I can go into details, but I really see no point

I was speaking in regards to the process of invoking the deities, which deities are invoked throughout the ritual, which mandalas are used, what offerings are given to each specific deity, what is the sankalpa for the ritual, how are the rituals interconnected with other related rituals held at the same time, etc. I was not referring to doing a google search on ashwamedha and getting details about what the queen should do with the horse. That wasn't the scholarship I was referring to when I said we do not know enough about these two rituals to change Prabhupada's use of the words. These are things that only lifetime purohits will even have a chance of understanding. But understanding the technicality of these rituals is a prerequisite for understanding their proper grammatical use in relation to each other.

 

When someone makes a claim that "Prabhupada is obviously wrong", then they better be basing it on complete information (years of scriptural study on each specific topic), not on having read a translation of Mahabharata once in their life.

 

If you feel you are in a position to point out Prabhupada's "obvious mistake" here, go ahead. But you haven't convinced me at all.

[Kulapavana]

SB 1.12.33 Purport:

Mahārāja Marutta: one of the great emperors of the world. He reigned over the world long before the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was the son of Mahārāja Avikṣit and was a great devotee of the son of the sun-god, known as Yamarāja. His brother Samvarta was a rival priest of the great Bṛhaspati, the learned priest of the demigods.

-------------------

 

Samvarta was the brother of Brihasphati, not the brother of Maharaja Marutta. Both of them were sons of Angiras Muni.

 

Angira: He is one of the six mental sons of Brahma and the father of Brhaspati, the great learned priest of the demigods in the heavenly planets. He was born of the semen of Brahmaji given to a cinder of fire. Utathya and Samvarta are his sons. It is said that he is still performing austerity and chanting the holy name of the Lord at a place known as Alokananda on the banks of the Ganges.

http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/associates/devotees/sages2.htm

[Guest guest]

 

Either I haven't been getting out much, or zat is ze funniest thing I have heard in years.

 

REZISTANZE IZ FUTILE !! YOU VILL KOMPLY !!

 

Unfortunately, there's a serious movement to do just that in America.

[Dwayne]

From what i've seen, a lot of changes are just corrections, as proved by comparing the published books to the original manuscripts by Srila Prabhupada..

[Kulapavana]

SB 1.13.21. Purport (in regards to Dhṛtarāṣṭra):

"The King is reminded of his precarious condition, influenced by cruel time, and by his past experience he should have been more intelligent to see what was going to happen to his own life. His father, Vicitravīrya, died long ago, when he and his younger brothers were all little children..."

 

Actually Vicitravirya was not the father of Dhritarastra (whose father was Vyasa), and he died before Dhritarastra and his younger brothers were born.

 

again, simple editing could have fixed that.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Though Vyasa conceived the child, Vicitravirya was the father of Dhritarastra, and only through that link did he have right to the throne, right to his caste, etc. Caste, gotra and inheritence are passed down from the father to son, not through the mother. Dhritarastra and his descendents never make a claim of belonging to the lineage of Vyasa, but rather to their father's dynasty. (Elsewhere I saw you make the claim that caste is passed on from the mother, but I didn't waste time to point out this mistake, as you weren't using it to criticize Prabhupada's writings.)

 

Your attempts to find "obvious" mistakes in Prabhupada's books are pathetic, as they just highlight your own misunderstandings. These are things that any child in India is aware of, but you want to publicly point out some imagined fault in Prabhupada's books because you are ignorant of this culture.

 

In Hindu and Vedic culture the wife takes the caste of the husband at the time of marriage (giving up her own), and this is why a son is considered so important to keep the family line alive so that Pinda can continue to be offered for the forefathers.

[Kulapavana]

 

Caste, gotra and inheritence are passed down from the father to son, not through the mother. Dhritarastra and his descendents never make a claim of belonging to the lineage of Vyasa, but rather to their father's dynasty. (Elsewhere I saw you make the claim that caste is passed on from the mother, but I didn't waste time to point out this mistake, as you weren't using it to criticize Prabhupada's writings.)

 

 

according to Manu Samhita (Chapter 10) child's caste is based on the mother:

 

Verses

 

8. From a Brahmana a with the daughter of a Vaisya is born (a son) called an Ambashtha, with the daughter of a sudra a Nishada, who is also called Parasava.

9. From a Kshatriya and the daughter of a Sudra springs a being, called Ugra, resembling both a Kshatriya and a Sudra, ferocious in his manners, and delighting in cruelty.

10. Children of a Brahmana by (women of) the three (lower) castes, of a Kshatriya by (wives of) the two (lower) castes, and of a Vaisya by (a wife of) the one caste (below him) are all six called base-born (apasada). 11. From a Kshatriya by the daughter of a Brahmana is born (a son called) according to his caste (gati) a Suta; from a Vaisya by females of the royal and the Brahmana (castes) spring a Magadha and a Vaideha.

 

there are other similar references.

 

 

even if we assume that Vicitravirya can be seen as Dhritarastra's father (a reasonable proposal if properly explained), he died BEFORE all of his "children" were born, therefore the correction (or at least a foot note) to the above sentence would be justified.

[theist]

Just to toss in my two cents worth I must say I would rather have Prabhupada's books with an occasional error then his books having been mucked around with by mundane editors and so-called scholars.

 

Please just write your own book and place your own name on it, that would be honest at least.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your attempts to find "obvious" mistakes in Prabhupada's books are pathetic, as they just highlight your own misunderstandings.

 

I have spent many years translating Prabhupada's books, printing and distributing them, sometimes under very difficult conditions (underground in a communist country). I also know quite a bit about how Prabhupada's books were initially worked on and published.

 

I see the idea that there is no need to edit these books as completely counterproductive because all factual errors in all books should be corrected, and that is a job of any good editing team working for any author.

 

on this thread I bring up different cases where such editing is needed in order to point that out, and certainly not in order to criticize Srila Prabhupada. you can pretend everything is perfect for your own use, but in fact many people see that there is quite a bit of these types of errors in Prabhupada's books. if they these books are to be used for a long, long time, we should make sure that they were properly edited.

[Kulapavana]

 

Just to toss in my two cents worth I must say I would rather have Prabhupada's books with an occasional error then his books having been mucked around with by mundane editors and so-called scholars.

 

all of these books have already been edited, primarily (but not only) for language reasons. you should get familiar with how the publishing was done, starting with the McMillan Gita, perhaps the most edited of all Prabhupada's books. the idea that what you see there is word for word what SP said is a total myth.

[theist]

I understand that Prabhupada had editors and I also understand that those editors themselves occasionally took liberties in their editing that displeased Srila Prabhupada. Now that Srila Prabhupada is not in vapuh form to register his displeasure all such editing should cease. Any so-called corrections can be added as footnotes if need be.

 

What the bookworms don't seem to grasp is that you are ruining many peoples faith in these books. I mean who gives a damn about some rajasuya sacrifice, if it was a real rajasuya or not. What is the value of all this nitpicking by we who are on the verge of a death most of us are not prepared for?

[Kulapavana]

 

What the bookworms don't seem to grasp is that you are ruining many peoples faith in these books.

 

what are you talking about? is your faith in the value of Prabhupada's books shaken because somebody says there may be small errors in his books? if anything is shaken it is the myth created by some of his disciples. over the years several Iskcon myths were shaken and we are better off without them.

 

nobody I ever talked to had any kind of faith crisis because they discovered small errors in Prabhupada's books. that is just absurd. Prabhupada was not creating myths, but some of his disciples were doing just that. Prabhupada never said he was above making mistakes, or that he was omniscient, yet such myths are being propagated by many of his disciples, creating a fake image of the Vaishnava acharya and his books.

 

if you tell people: "expect absolute perfection with no errors of any kind!" then they will be dissappointed when they find them. but that is not the way our tradition works. read Prabhupada's introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam for clues, where he very humbly presents his contribution to our tradition. THAT is his perfection, not the bogus myth some his disciples are fabricating.

[Nrsinghadev]

 

all of these books have already been edited, primarily (but not only) for language reasons. you should get familiar with how the publishing was done, starting with the McMillan Gita, perhaps the most edited of all Prabhupada's books. the idea that what you see there is word for word what SP said is a total myth.

The point is, they are highlighting obvious errors such as the famous "cattle-raising should be cow protection" error (the types of errors which obviously should be changed), and (ab)use those errors as an excuse to make totally unnecessary changes to every single line of the Gita.

Some of the changes totally transform the original meaning of a verse of purport(because they think that is what he "actually" meant), which is very bad, while others don't do anything at all except change the words and phrasing! Either of the two is a very bad development.

Read the new Gita, listen to Prabhupada's lectures and try to find the similarities. You will find none. Now pick up the original Gita and, even though also edited, read that one and find the similarities. You will find that Prabhupada's way of words is very much present in the old Gita and is almost completely absent in the new version.

Unfortunately the new totally revised Gita will continue to be pushed, and later that revised Gita will again be revised by someone else to change it, again in order to "fit it in the times we are in" and so on and so on. But this is the age of Kali so we are excused......

 

Haribol!

[Kulapavana]

 

Some of the changes totally transform the original meaning of a verse of purport(because they think that is what he "actually" meant), which is very bad, while others don't do anything at all except change the words and phrasing! Either of the two is a very bad development.

 

yes, that is a problem. there are indeed editorial changes that can obscure or twist the original teaching of the purport or verse - as much as possible these should be corrected back to the original intent based on all available sources.

[Guest guest]

Not a single blade of grass moves without the sanction of the supreme. So if people lose faith it is not because of what is in books or not. Any development of faith occurs by the grace of the Supreme.

 

So the Supreme sanctioned that there will be many versions of SP's books. Did the Supreme allow this or not? There are many versions of the Bible over the last 2000 years. So undoubtedly the same will happen with the Gita also.

 

It's seems strange that people think faith is all up to whatever they read in a book or not. Faith to me seems to be a transformative experience that comes from blessings from the Supreme.

 

In the Gaudiya tradition I understand that the topmost devotional reader of the Gita was the illiterate man who could not even read it but was shedding tears thinking of how Krsna was the Friend to Arjuna. He was trying to read it upside down.

 

In the Tibetan tradition there is the story of the farmer who went to see the Deity and he didn't know siddanta and Deity ettiquette. He put his boots on the altar and he ate the offerings for the Deity right off of the altar, because he thought the Deity was the best Friend of all and that his Friend left some food for him after a long journey and a place to set his shoes.

 

The priests freaked out and chased the farmer out of the Temple shouting at him. But the Deity left the Temple also and followed the farmer.

 

Faith seems to be a blessing from the Supreme and the ability to read books in fact seems to hamper it in some cases as illustrated in these stories from both Gaudiya and Tibetan traditions.

[Kulapavana]

 

Not a single blade of grass moves without the sanction of the supreme. So if people lose faith it is not because of what is in books or not. Any development of faith occurs by the grace of the Supreme.

 

So the Supreme sanctioned that there will be many versions of SP's books. Did the Supreme allow this or not? There are many versions of the Bible over the last 2000 years. So undoubtedly the same will happen with the Gita also.

 

The Supreme Lord allows a lot of things to go on, and not all of them He actually LIKES to see. Freedom of the living entity comes at a price.

 

It is a duty of the disciple to preserve the integrity of his guru's message. I have no problem with devotees trying to keep Prabhupada's books the way they are because they are personally happy with them - it is their choice. I just have a problem with them creating and propagating myths.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

according to Manu Samhita (Chapter 10) child's caste is based on the mother

What is stated in those verses of Manu samhita is not what you claim. It has nothing to do with inheriting the mother's caste. It states what caste a child is given if a male of caste A marries a woman of caste B. It was looked down on for a lower caste man to marry a higher caste woman, and as a result the son's caste was considered low (for example a suta).

 

What we have here is someone (yourself) who knows much less of Vedic culture than Srila Prabhupada, foolishly saying Prabhupada is mistaken and needs to have his books changed because you think you are right and he is wrong. According to you, Prabhupada was mistaken to say Vicitravirya was the father of Dhritarashtra, and you think it is an obvious mistake that needs to be corrected. Anyone with a cursory knowledge will know that Prabhupada was correct in his statement, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with what he said. The danger we have is when people who know nothing try to change the books of Prabhupada based on their poor fund of knowledge.

 

All your self promoting claims of your great experience and expertise in editing books doesn't change the fact that you are wrong on this.

[theist]

 

what are you talking about? is your faith in the value of Prabhupada's books shaken because somebody says there may be small errors in his books?

 

Not at all. Which is precisely the point. Errors or no errors on the subject of whose father is who or some rajasuya sacrifice do not effect me in the least. I read to gain sambandha jnana and more than that...to hear Prabhupada's voice, not some generic voiced dub-over by Jayadvaita.

 

 

Kulapavana- yes, that is a problem. there are indeed editorial changes that can obscure or twist the original teaching of the purport or verse - as much as possible these should be corrected back to the original intent based on all available sources.

 

THIS IS WHAT HURTS PEOPLES FAITH!!!!! You admit it yourself but yet want to continue to process. That is madness!!!You see many of us do not trust the realizations of people who want to edit Prabhupada's books. We want Srila Prabhupada...so-called errors and all. You write your own book and if we want to we will buy it.

[Kulapavana]

 

THIS IS WHAT HURTS PEOPLES FAITH!!!!! You admit it yourself but yet want to continue to process. That is madness!!!You see many of us do not trust the realizations of people who want to edit Prabhupada's books. We want Srila Prabhupada...so-called errors and all.

 

how is correcting a factual error (like Vicitravirya being around when Dhritarastra was born) changing the philosophy? Leaving such errors in the text simply leads to some disciples trying to change the existing vedic record in order to prove that "Prabhupada was always right", sometimes by concocting a totally bogus philosophy - we have seen it done even in this thread.

[Kulapavana]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>according to Manu Samhita (Chapter 10) child's caste is based on the mother </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

What is stated in those verses of Manu samhita is not what you claim. It has nothing to do with inheriting the mother's caste.

 

I did not say that the child inherits mother's caste. I said that in determining the child's caste mother's caste is of primary concern. The child does not automatically inherit the caste of the father, and mother does not attain the caste of her husband.

 

Originally Posted by Jahnava Nitai Das

"Caste, gotra and inheritence are passed down from the father to son, not through the mother"

"In Hindu and Vedic culture the wife takes the caste of the husband at the time of marriage (giving up her own)"

these statements are contradicted by the shastra - they may be customary where you live at the present time, but they are not based on Vedic culture.

anyway, that has nothing to do with the issue on hand. Vicitravirya was dead before Dhritarastra was conceived, and that is a fact.