The Manifest Presence of Sound

[nimbo pani]

...Grief.

 

 

You should not read anything I post in the future then because it will all be about the Supersoul Whom I see as the missing equation in all these topics. I don't feel obliged to try to entertain you.

 

No, it will be about your imperfect conception of Supersoul. Besides, I rarely read your posts anymore. However, if you're going to quote me and then misrepresent me, then most likely I will read and respond. Please... do not be delusional and think for one moment that I wish for you to "entertain" me. My goodness. And oh, btw, you are free to not read my posts anymore

as well. I would very much prefer this. I am not here to engage in irrational

conversation with judgemental people.

 

 

It is a simple truth and is not in need of further exploration.

 

Thus spaketh Theist.

 

 

If you look back in the posts you will see that beggar accepted this simple point.

 

Which point? Oh never mind, don't bother. Beggar made a reply to you by saying "From another angle of vision the guru's body is purely spiritual", in reply to your stating that the Guru is not his body. You have yet to respond, let alone acknowledge him.

 

 

One wonders why you cannot.

 

Again, which point? I never addressed your point one way or another. I was making a point about the hearing vs reading controversy and how I would rather receive the mantra in writing than from a rascal "devotee" who was having an affair with my wife. If you hadn't been so hasty to pass judgement, perhaps we could have explored your issue further. But I see by your proclamation above that this is not to be explored further, that you have already realized the truth.

[theist]

 

From another angle of vision the guru's body is purely spiritual.

 

Yes, it is spiritual energy but still not the atma himself. Just like a microphone used in Krsna's service is spiritual energy.

 

Those that think they are getting a mantra straight from the lips of a devotee because their bodies are in the same room and consider someone who received mantra via tape or paper from across the world as somehow lesser then what they received are diluted IMO. The will and intent of a transcendental devotee of Krsna does not lose potency as if it is a construction of space and time.

 

The idea is that a genuine guru is an empowered agent of the Lord in the heart. If such a being desires that you receive mantra then it can be taken that Krsna desires it. The same Krsna that lives in your heart lives in the heart of guru.

 

If you take it up properly there is no doubt you will be successful, despite some tape machine malfunction or someother so-called impediment.

[M.M.]

After hearing what Theist has said, it makes perfect sense that if A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had the willfull intent that his Diksa Mantra and spiritual instructions be empoweringly conveyed through assistant disciples on his behalf, and said that after he left the planet that was the way it was to continue, that it was his Willfull intent and if he was Acharya, Sri Krsna Paramatma would make it so.

[theist]

 

After hearing what Theist has said, it makes perfect sense that if A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had the willfull intent that his Diksa Mantra and spiritual instructions be empoweringly conveyed through assistant disciples on his behalf, and said that after he left the planet that was the way it was to continue, that it was his Willfull intent and if he was Acharya, Sri Krsna Paramatma would make it so.

 

M.M.,

 

I accept your point. But what would be the need officiating priests when we have his books and lectures?

[Kulapavana]

 

Being that there are a lot of devotees who believe hearing and reading to be exactly the same, despite evidence to the contrary from Bhagavata prabhu, then why not simply have the mantra written on a piece of paper and hand a photocopy to the initiate for him to read.

 

what is shabda brahman, the divine vibration? is it the vibration transmitted in the air? is it the vibration transmitted in the ether? or the vibration transmitted in the consciousness?

 

the traditional understanding is that shabda brahman is invoked (brought out) on the level of pure consciousnes, then manifested in thought (vibration of the ether) and finally manifested physically in the air as the audible sound. can Krishna transmit shabda brahman to you from a piece of paper? yes, He can, but it is not the normal system. If you received the diksa Mantra from a bogus person (who has no ability to invoke the actual sabda brahman in the mantra) can it still be backed by Krishna? yest it can, but it is not the normal system. neither is a tape recording. yet, in emergency, Krishna will back it up, and when YOU chant the mantra, it WILL BE shabda brahman connecting you with the spiritual realm.

 

so... it is not really all one, but perhaps I should have given a bit more detail in my previous post.

[M.M.]

Dear Theist.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

You wrote.

 

 

M.M.,

I accept your point. But what would be the need officiating priests when we have his books and lectures?

 

 

The only Need I can see is that my Spiritual Master and Acharya instructed that it be done this way.

 

As for the utility of such a system, the Diksa initiation ceremony can have some practical benefit in enhancing the progress of a neophyte's devotional service. For the sincere person, it can be part and parcel of the process whereby one accepts the Siksa or instructions of the Spiritual Master, as they are giving a vow to do so, and if they haven't been fully committed already, this may strike a chord in them to redouble their effort.

 

It also engages a few devotees who have brahminical varna in brahminical duties. It also affords a nice opportunity for a group gathering, where congregational chanting may occur.

 

As long as there is no unqualified person standing there and saying YOU ARE NOW MY ETERNAL DISCIPLE AND YOU WILL OBEY, the whole affair is a wonderful part of the process of Devotional Service in my opinion, and coopt the potency, nor preclude the need for reading Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures.

 

Best regards,

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[theist]

Haribol Mark prabhu,

 

 

 

The only Need I can see is that my Spiritual Master and Acharya instructed that it be done this way.

 

One difference you and I may have is that you are interested in working in an ISKCON context I believe and I am not. I would gravitate to such association if it weren't for the overflow antagonism towards other GV's and their missions. That is suicidal in my opinion. Also when some disciple of Srila Prabhupada's feels it is time for him to branch out and start his own family of disciples that should not make them a target of ritvik wrath. As is stated one can take someone as his guru who is not an uttama adikari but it is not recommended because his guidance will be insufficient. So it is one thing to challenge his teachings if they appear to deviate but one cannot say he has no right to accept disciples because he clearly does.

 

My dear ritviks please drop the mean spiritness that has arisen from your dispute with Iskcon. You run the risk with your shotgun approach of shooting an elevated Vaisnava and destroying you own creepers. Your contextand conflict is Iskcon and not outside of it.

 

Ritivks will often admit that if one is qualified he can be guru but by their blanket condemnation of all others besides Prabhupada they are also ready to shoot such a person when he appears. This needs to dealt with if you want to really represent Srila Prabhupada and be seen as more than an anti-iskcon group.

 

 

As for the utility of such a system, the Diksa initiation ceremony can have some practical benefit in enhancing the progress of a neophyte's devotional service. For the sincere person, it can be part and parcel of the process whereby one accepts the Siksa or instructions of the Spiritual Master, as they are giving a vow to do so, and if they haven't been fully committed already, this may strike a chord in them to redouble their effort.

 

It also engages a few devotees who have brahminical varna in brahminical duties. It also affords a nice opportunity for a group gathering, where congregational chanting may occur.

 

As long as there is no unqualified person standing there and saying YOU ARE NOW MY ETERNAL DISCIPLE AND YOU WILL OBEY, the whole affair is a wonderful part of the process of Devotional Service in my opinion, and coopt the potency, nor preclude the need for reading Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures.

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist,

 

Hare Krsna.

 

You accidentally lumped me together with a group of people in your mind who you call "Ritviks" and then say.

 

 

You run the risk with your shotgun approach of shooting an elevated Vaisnava and destroying you own creepers.

 

Ritivks will often admit that if one is qualified he can be guru but by their blanket condemnation of all others besides Prabhupada they are also ready to shoot such a person when he appears.

 

Here you are yourself using a shotgun and blanketing me with the pellets, without knowing my position on the exact issue that you suggest all associated with ritvik have in common which was.

 

 

"So it is one thing to challenge his teachings if they appear to deviate but one cannot say he has no right to accept disciples because he clearly does."

 

referring to

 

 

"when some disciple of Srila Prabhupada's feels it is time for him to branch out and start his own family of disciples that should not make them a target of ritvik wrath. As is stated one can take someone as his guru who is not an uttama adikari but it is not recommended because his guidance will be insufficient."

 

So I will attempt to bring this conversation to a personal level as we are all individuals, albeit with group affiliations.

 

I fully understand the dynamics of who may or may not instruct another, and how sufficient that guidance may be.

 

I give my blessing to any devotee of Lord Krishna, Neophyte or Newly Intermediate, who wishes to branch out and start their own family. Of course, If given the opportunity, I would relate the point you mentioned about the possibility of insufficient guidance, as that would be the responsible thing to do, and if the person was aware of their true qualifications, but deemed it necessary to go ahead with the halfway measures, I would wish them well and drop it.

 

However, for them to set up shop within My Spiritual Masters Ashram and Institution, and begin giving orders Contrary to his, is a little much and must evoke a small peep in protest wouldn't you agree.

 

And at what point would the Lord's wrath through someone in such a posture of protest be vindicated? Who is to say, but as long as they were in such a position of moral strength, that remains an option if rational discussion should fail to influence the mind of such a perpetrator of injustice.

 

you also say

 

 

Yes these are good points and have their benefit to be sure in the context you describe, as long as the new "initiate" is not left with the belief that he is now a "discple" in fact and has been "initiated" in fact at that ceremony.

 

All part of proper Siksa my friend. And a Ritvik priest worthy of the office would be trusting that the Temple President who was cultivating the new aspirant was giving that proper Siksa, by getting to know the TP, and by keeping in contact with the GBC who has the solemn duty to be sure each and every temple is maintaining the spiritual principles of its Founder-Acharya, and if NOT, then the ritvik should not grant the Diksa ceremony until all confusions or possible pitfalls are clear.

 

You also said.

 

 

Strongly challenging the GBC's latest concoction in presenting guru is one thing (but not the only one) I really appreciate about the ritviks. Just please confine that to Iskcon.

 

That is my point exactly. If all of these persons were to go out on their own and not use the Intellectual, emotional, and material resources of Iskcon as a foundation to attempt their latest theories, but would do so on their own, and turn over Iskcon to those who were willing to "Suffer" under all the "heavy and unchanging rules and regulations" then there would be nothing left to fight over.

 

The people who honor the original system have been scattered by the Duplicity and Shenannigans of the hijackers. They have had to claw there way to a healing place, and find one another through the years, and are not well organized on the whole, just very dedicated and sincere about the truth.

 

There has not been one instance of a False Powertripping Initiation among any of the "Ritvik" camp. The HKS has assembled a board of directors (like a GBC) from among the TP's who elected one person to give initiations on Behalf of Srila Prabhupada, who is a mature guy. He performs the ceremony trusting the TP's assessment that the disciple is sincere, and then sends em home! No minimum requirement to wash his feet for the rest of eternity.

 

The IRM has been even more cautious and reserved. NOT ONE INITIATION CEREMONY. They (I affiliate myself more strongly with them) are still considering the maturation of its members, an building a foundation of trust, and know full well that all its members are engaged "directly in devotional service and association with a pure devotee" by reading Srila Prabhupada's books, chanting, sankirtana, taking prasadam together, and other association.

 

No rush to make ceremonial initiations happen, as if the whole succession of passing on transcendental knowledge comes to a screeching halt because there are no Living Diksa Gurus giving ceremonies and commanding obedience.

 

Sometimes I think I am dreaming that so many people could be so blind and fanatic, but then I remember this is Kali Yuga, and just pinch myself and move on.

 

Best regards.

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[theist]

 

Dear Theist,

 

Hare Krsna.

 

You accidentally lumped me together with a group of people in your mind who you call "Ritviks" and then say.

 

 

 

Here you are yourself using a shotgun and blanketing me with the pellets, without knowing my position on the exact issue that you suggest all associated with ritvik have in common which was.

 

You are correct and I apolgize for that. I do not understand the distinctions in each group's approach and therefore lump them in all together. And assuming you must be "one of them" is indeed the same mistake I accuse "the ritviks" of making. Thanks for calling that to my attention. I'll be more careful in my wording in the future.

 

 

 

 

So I will attempt to bring this conversation to a personal level as we are all individuals, albeit with group affiliations.

 

I fully understand the dynamics of who may or may not instruct another, and how sufficient that guidance may be.

 

I give my blessing to any devotee of Lord Krishna, Neophyte or Newly Intermediate, who wishes to branch out and start their own family. Of course, If given the opportunity, I would relate the point you mentioned about the possibility of insufficient guidance, as that would be the responsible thing to do, and if the person was aware of their true qualifications, but deemed it necessary to go ahead with the halfway measures, I would wish them well and drop it.

 

No problem with that.

 

However, for them to set up shop within My Spiritual Masters Ashram and Institution, and begin giving orders Contrary to his, is a little much and must evoke a small peep in protest wouldn't you agree.

 

ABSOLUTELY!!! When the mature son starts his own family he also gets his own home to house them in. Not that they all get crowded into one house in other than some emergency situation. This is seen in the awkwardness of debates on whose picture to place on the altar etc.

 

Prabhupada's temples should be centered on Prabhupada I believe. If krsna wants to bless some disciple of Srila Prabhupada with his own disciples then He is perfectly capable of providing them separate accomodations as well.

 

In my estimation any "guru" that goes along with the Iskcon system of today is disqualifying himself from the start. A guru should be able to stand on his own self reliance on Krsna independently of all other circumstances. This is what Srila Prabhupada did when he came to america with a few rupees and a little cereal. THAT is faith. He KNEW Krsna was in control.

 

 

 

 

All part of proper Siksa my friend. And a Ritvik priest worthy of the office would be trusting that the Temple President who was cultivating the new aspirant was giving that proper Siksa, by getting to know the TP, and by keeping in contact with the GBC who has the solemn duty to be sure each and every temple is maintaining the spiritual principles of its Founder-Acharya, and if NOT, then the ritvik should not grant the Diksa ceremony until all confusions or possible pitfalls are clear.

 

I am not so sure creating a pre-77 concept of ISkcon is necessary but then again I as long as people are chanting and the emphasis is on the internal diksa I see no harm in it either.

 

 

 

 

 

That is my point exactly. If all of these persons were to go out on their own and not use the Intellectual, emotional, and material resources of Iskcon as a foundation to attempt their latest theories, but would do so on their own, and turn over Iskcon to those who were willing to "Suffer" under all the "heavy and unchanging rules and regulations" then there would be nothing left to fight over.

 

Agreed. Can't argue with that.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I think I am dreaming that so many people could be so blind and fanatic, but then I remember this is Kali Yuga, and just pinch myself and move on.

 

Yes but Mark this is what they different camps feel and say. lol

 

Maya follows Krsna like His shadow and will always be there to offer the marginal jiva an alternative to the real thing. She is an expert counterfeiter and can fool anyone. We must rely on the Lord in the heart to lead us to Him and if we are sincere He certainly will.

[Guest guest]

Hari Bol Theist.

 

I must say it is refreshing to speak with a mature and humble person, and especially one who agrees with alot that I have to say. LOL.

 

I went through many years of being thouroughly chastised for my illusions and have done all I can to understand exactly what my Acharyadeva was saying, and it was not easy because I was very ambitious and quite cabable of rascaldom at any moment.

 

But being the recovering victim of abuse, I was never able to cross that line to become what I despised, and count the abuse suffered as a blessing in disguise, although it certainly is NOT NECESSARY toward the end of being humble and submitting to real authority, it sure helps in a twisted way.

 

I would like to clarify one point that you raised.

 

 

 

Quote: (by me)

All part of proper Siksa my friend. And a Ritvik priest worthy of the office would be trusting that the Temple President who was cultivating the new aspirant was giving that proper Siksa, by getting to know the TP, and by keeping in contact with the GBC who has the solemn duty to be sure each and every temple is maintaining the spiritual principles of its Founder-Acharya, and if NOT, then the ritvik should not grant the Diksa ceremony until all confusions or possible pitfalls are clear.

 

(your reply)

I am not so sure creating a pre-77 concept of ISkcon is necessary but then again I as long as people are chanting and the emphasis is on the internal diksa I see no harm in it either.

 

I do not see this as creating (or in this case recreating) an old concept. I see it as perpetuating the original system while implementing the instructions given on July 9th 1977 for Iskcon which only expanded the capacity of the old system for future growth.

 

The spirit of truth behind the Acharya's instructions never becomes irrelevant, and thus neither do the instructions themselves. The concept was grounded in utilitarian instruction. It was part of Iskcon then and any Iskcon today wherein such a directive is "changed" is not the Iskcon of the Founder-Acharya.

 

Again, this is part of the devious trickery perpetuated by the Zoned Out Acharyas. By immediately severing all ties with those perfect instructions, they created their own version. And it has been prominent for almost 30 years. Now when those who keep the spirit alive follow the ORIGINAL INSTRUCTIONS and share THAT CONCEPT with others, people tend to jump to the assumption you did that it is creating or rehashing something old and tried but dumped to the wayside, which is not the case as I have explained.

 

What a sinister plan. I doubt many if even any of them were so intelligent as to be consciously aware this was and would be the case, but as you point out Maha Maya sure knew what would happen, and these foolish saps as the perfect vehicle to institute her challenge to Krsna's plan as presented through Srila Prabhupada. Which is her duty, and she did it well.

 

Now we will see, what we will see, as apparently Srila Prabhupada has given some people shelter from Maha Maya's instructions, and they have seen through to the necessity of following strictly the instructions given by the Acharya. It is NEVER too late. For cryin out loud. Only 30 years have passed! There is plenty of time to make good on the sublime plans Srila Prabhupada had.

 

It is easy to see why people go along with the broken system, because at least they get community association and some opportunity for neophyte advancement. But they inevitably reach a glass ceiling, because to keep that association, they are required to accept a Spiritual Master of a level which will only provide ultimately "insufficient guidance" and can only advance to that one's level. And horror of horrors, some of these "Spiritual Masters" are not even sincere neophytes but STONE COLD CRIMINALS. What a crap shoot.

 

So you may be able to empathize a bit more why I and others are so emphatic about re-establishing a safeguarded sanctuary where unlimited advancement is POSSIBLE if not PROBABLE, and certainly will not facilitate the antics of grossly perverted criminal behavior. Neophytes or better. Simple for the Simple.

 

Hare Krsna.

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[theist]

 

So you may be able to empathize a bit more why I and others are so emphatic about re-establishing a safeguarded sanctuary where unlimited advancement is POSSIBLE if not PROBABLE, and certainly will not facilitate the antics of grossly perverted criminal behavior. Neophytes or better. Simple for the Simple.

 

Yes I do empathize with that. But from many ritviks I hear this criticism of others outside the Iskcon circle and I believe that should be curbed and stopped quickly by those that are taking responibility as siksa guru's for new comers. Clean your sanctuary as you see fit and let others do the same.

 

Mark, What I meant was there was a break in the system that Prabhupada used for his worldwide mission. Rather that break was good or bad is the subject of debate. And it appears some ritvik groups are trying to re-establish it. It is just a semantic point. I can see the benefits that one can receive by having his initial practice of sadhana bhakti monitored by a TP type. It adds a certain order which is missing in an otherwise chaotic kali-yuga atmosphere. It is not for me however just as it was not for me to live in a temple when Srila Prabhupada was hear physically.

 

My position is below the vaidi-bhaktas. My practice is much less than that. There are those that are beyond that also. So for us and officating priest has no relevance. But we can still take to the purification process that is in Srila Prabhupada's instructions and even reach the perfectional stage quite apart from present Iskcon or ritvik Iskcon is that is truly our desire.

 

So I think you and I may be quite close in our views on this subject in the final analysis.

 

May we all grow in Krsna consiousness.

 

theist

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist,

 

You are very level headed and humble, so there are few if any places where I think we would disagree for long, as we are able to transmute semantic barriers with common sense.

 

However I strongly urge you to reconsider the point you make about there being a break in the system introduced by Srila Prabhupada.

 

As I pointed out before, this is exactly what those who DID break with it would be more than happy that you and others believe as a Final analysis.

For then, it is quite easy to abandon them altogether in their pillage of Iskcon's intellectual and material treasure, which are meant to be cintamani but become mundane in their hands.

 

What you have not seen, and who you have not met until now perhaps, are people who were there, who escaped and never let the system he instructed out of their sights. Just because they were not able to implement every aspect of it due to being underground does not mean that they (we) are incapable of doing so over time.

 

For example, after Srila Prabhupada gave the order to increase the capacity to accept his new Diksa disciples via officiating acharyas, there was a time delay before it actually happened. Even if only a few weeks or a month. Yet the order was there, and there were those who acted upon it in a way to get it rolling as soon as POSSIBLE.

 

In the same way, there are those who escaped the madness, and hold the Order as one to be followed, as soon as POSSIBLE.

 

Just because 98% of the "disciples" failed in this regard due to outright disregard for the order or an inability to stand in the way of those "leaders" and went along to get along, does not equate to a break in the system.

 

He offered a system that created a house the whole world COULD live in, not that the whole world HAS TO live there. I am not that fanatic. But as a bona fide acharya, his desires are Lord Krsna's desires, and thus his Iskcon system of Vaidi Bhakti Sadhana based on Daivi Varnashrama Dharma is still being implemented, Ritvik initiation system and all, and growing, despite the mess made by the "Big shots"

 

Of this I assure you. Be not deceived by the Chela's of Kali.

 

I wish you the best.

 

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[theist]

Mark,

 

 

However I strongly urge you to reconsider the point you make about there being a break in the system introduced by Srila Prabhupada.

 

As I pointed out before, this is exactly what those who DID break with it would be more than happy that you and others believe as a Final analysis.

For then, it is quite easy to abandon them altogether in their pillage of Iskcon's intellectual and material treasure, which are meant to be cintamani but become mundane in their hands.

 

What you have not seen, and who you have not met until now perhaps, are people who were there, who escaped and never let the system he instructed out of their sights. Just because they were not able to implement every aspect of it due to being underground does not mean that they (we) are incapable of doing so over time.

 

OK, by break I don't mean the parampara itself I mean within the institution known as Iskcon there has been a break. I was around in those days myself and interested in what was happening. After Srila Prabhupada left Ramesvara happened to pay a visit to the temple in my locality. I was able to ask him personally why he thought he was now guru. His answer, "I have a tape of Prabhupada to prove it! but unfortunately I left it in LA."

 

I was shocked as I had always consider Ramesvara a very advanced soul. He had joined up about the time I started coming around. I went with him and some devotees from the temple as he was going to give a lecture at Reed college one evening. In such a short time he had absorded so much of the intellectual side of the philosophy that I was astounded to hear him. The only problem was just 3 people from the school attended and sat in the front of the small classroom to hear him speak and in about 1 hour he never once acknowledged them personally. But he was new and so very bright. That lesson remains in my mind.

 

He soon left for other service and I would hear of him from time to time as one of the big guns. I thought he must be a very close disciple Of Srila Prabhupada because he was always walking with him on morning walks etc.

 

But then he claimed his authority to be guru was left behind in LA. "Acarya is self-effulgent" was ringing in my head as I sat there stunned to learn this person who I had been in such awe over was still on the kanistha level.

 

It was at that moment that I knew there was a break in Iskcon.

 

TRANSLATION Gita 4.2

This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.

 

Of course the science is never really lost, it may just become unaccessable to humans from time to time. And how did Krsna reestablish it?

 

TRANSLATION Gita 4.3

That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science.

 

It is reestablished by the proper candidate hearing from the right source.

 

Nothing else is required.