Can a Woman be Brahmana without a Brahmana husband?

[Guest guest]

> > I am not a Vedic ksatriya, but I would not want to be trained in any

> > other way because I know my nature according to the Vedic knowledge. I

> > would only be cheating myself if I denied it and claimed to be a big

> > brahmana or something else I am not. On a material basis the body I

> > received due to my karma is "inferior" for certain material facilities

> > like a brahmanas peacefulness and happiness. I can fully admit this and

> > accept it.

> >

> > But the body I have is EQUALLY capable of becoming a Vaisnava pure

> > devotee as that of the brahmana. This is all I really care about. The

> > same, I feel, goes for the womens bodies.

>

> How would you discribe your position in this discussion to be different or

> closer to the vedic ideal, than that of Guru-Krsna prabhu and those whose

> point of view he is representing in his comments?

>

> Harsi das

 

 

 

 

I do not really care what this group or that group thinks or says. I am

hoping my perspective is in line with Srila Prabhupadas books which

represent the Vedic ideal with due consideration for time and circumstance.

 

If you care to point out what it is they, GHQ or others, are saying (good

luck!) and how I am "supporting" their position I can try to respond.

Somehow I feel inside that I am not in agreement at all with the GHQ

mentality and mode of discussion nor their perspective, though mentioning

and believing in some of the principles of Vedic culture might be shared.

 

But then I find myself at equal odds with 95% of ISKCONs "leaders" too!

 

Personally, I think the GHQ individuals are self-defeating when they carry

on long debates with women in public conferences. If they truly think as

they claim, that women are in fact impotent and therefore incapable of

certain jobs, why argue it? What do they fear if women cannot accomplish

anything? Everything should be fine with no threat from such impotent

species as women, if they are correct. They should only speak amongst

themselves. Besides they would be better off directing their discontent with

the ways things are towards the current MALE leaders of ISKCON who have

certainly not shown much superiority as a species in their handling of

ISKCONs affairs for the last 22+ years.

 

What good will it do to legislate "no women in management" when we have

dozens of men who have failed miserably at management?

 

 

Why don't the members of COM conferences simply assert their democratic

rights and vote to determine what the majority wants? If the majority wants

to not have GHQ be a part of COM, why can't that happen?

 

This trying to endlessly convince the other party of what is right or wrong

is mostly just a disturbance to others. Except to provide for some kind of

subtle sense of self-righteousness in "winning" a debate with a GHQ or a

woman, I do not see much constructiveness to it. I get sucked into just like

anybody else but would rather it stop.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

> [Text 2895869 from COM]

>

> > Hare Krsna dasi comments:

>

> > However, Srila Prabhupada did give some of his unmarried women disciples

> > brahmana initiation. And, he gave them the service of going on the altar

> > to worship the Deities.

> >

> > This can only mean one of two things:

>

>

> I do not know if this can mean ONLY one of two things. Surely we must admit

> we do not always know everything nor the ONLY way something can be

> understood. I have many times found myself completely convinced of something

> only to find my young 9 year old son make me realize I had it completely

> wrong. We Kali yuga people have many weaknesses of mind and body.

>

>

>

> > 1. A woman can be a brahmana without having a brahman father or a brahman

> > husband. (Because she has her own nature, she also has her own

> > appropriate varna even before becoming married.)

>

>

> This is something that should be thoroughly thought out and discussed

> because I personally do not think we are considering things correctly. I do

> not want to lend too much creedence to the GHQ mode of (mis)understanding

> about these subjects but I cannot deny some basic Vedic truths as I now see

> them until I am convinced I am seeing them incorrectly.

>

> A woman has her own nature according to the modes like any human being, but

> that does not mean she has a varna as in brahmana, ksatriya, etc., at least

> as I see it right now. She may be of the modes of goodness, passion or

> ignorance but varna is created from training by a guru.

 

HKDD comments:

 

Here's the excerpt from my posting of December 30:

 

***********************

 

Practically all of the women who joined Srila Prabhupada's Krsna

consciousness movement in the West were daughters of meat-eaters. Thus,

there is no possibility that they could be considered brahmanas because

they were born in brahmana families.

 

However, Srila Prabhupada did give some of his unmarried women disciples

brahmana initiation. And, he gave them the service of going on the altar

to worship the Deities.

 

This can only mean one of two things:

 

1. A woman can be a brahmana without having a brahman father or a brahman

husband. (Because she has her own nature, she also has her own

appropriate varna even before becoming married.)

 

or

 

2. Srila Prabhupada allowed people who were not really brahmanas to go on

the altar and perform worship to formally installed Deities of the Lord.

 

To me, only the first answer is an acceptable reflection of the character

and leadership of Srila Prabhupada.

 

By his practical example, our Founder/Acarya demonstrated that it a woman

can become a brahmana without a brahmana father or husband.

 

***********************

More from Janesvara prabhu:

 

> I may be wrong, but I do not believe I have ever read or heard of a woman

> referred to as a "great brahmana" and certainly not as a "great ksatriya" in

> the history of the Vedic culture. I hope no one will label me as a "GHQer"

> for this because most know my past position on these issues as different

> than theirs. But I want to know the accurate perspective of this important

> issue. In my study of Srila Prabhupadas books I do not see the

> varnasarma-dharma social occupations and designations of brahmana, ksatriya,

> vaisya or sudra attributed to women.

>

> A woman on the altar does not necessarily mean to me that she is designated

> a VAD "brahmana" but that she has received instruction on how to be

> brahminical in her practices. There is a difference, albeit subtle, in the

> cultural, social and traditional varna role considerations, I think.

>

>... Respectfully,

>

> Janesvara dasa

 

HKDD comments:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "VAD brahmana."

 

Srila Prabhupada initiated and trained women who were not married to

brahmanas and who did not come from brahmana families. Then he put them

on the altar to worship installed Deities.

 

If these women were not really brahmanas, how can you avoid the

alternative conclusion I previously offered:

 

 

2. Srila Prabhupada allowed people who were not really brahmanas to go on

the altar and perform worship to formally installed Deities of the Lord.

 

 

So a lot hinges on what you mean by VAD brahmanas. If by that you mean

according to traditional Vedic society -- a society in which the topmost

strata of devotees does not use a flush toilet, and in which sudras do not

attend a varnasrama college, and in which vaisyas are not instructed in a

varnasrama college how to plow and protect the cows -- then perhaps you

are correct. I do not know enough about traditional Vedic society to know

whether women ever worshipped the Deity on the altar.

 

But, I am not so interested in all the traditions of Vedic society --

since even Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected many of these traditions

Himself.

 

According to many proposals that he presented, including a varnasrama

college in which both vaisyas and sudras attend and are taught work

skills, I think that we must admit that Srila Prabhupada's Varnasrama is

significantly different from the materialistic system of varnasrama which

was rejected by Lord Caitanya.

 

You state that a devotee cannot become part of a specific varna without

being trained (or at least guided to training) by the spiritual master.

But in the case of these women -- they were trained under Srila Prabhupada

to fulfill the function of Deity worship.

 

So -- are they not really brahmanas?

 

And, if they are not really brahmanas, how can you possibly avoid the

conclusion that Srila Prabhupada allowed people who were not really

brahmanas to go on the altar and worship installed Deities?

 

Could you please answer this directly?

 

******************

 

I see what you are fighting against here. I personally am not proposing

that women become ksatriya warriors like Tarabhai-devi from Vedic history.

 

But practical experience has shown that -- just like men -- individual

women have different spirits. If Srila Prabhupada found that a woman had

a brahminical spirit, he offered that kind of trainig to her, and

attempted to unite her with a man of similar spirit.

 

It is a loss for ISKCON that we have failed up to this point to train our

devotees according to varna. The most tragic gap at the moment is that we

have no proper ksatriyas to take up the practical role of organizing

society and guaranteeing that its members are protected from harm.

 

Like you, probably, I see that this training would be basically for men --

not that we would be training women warriors like Tarabhai of old.

 

Nevertheless, I do not believe that varnasrama can work unless some type

of complementary training is provided for women who have a ksatriya spirit

so that they can adequately help their husbands.

 

The snapshot that stands out in my own mind is that of Kunti and the

Pandavas at Ekachakra, in which Kunti overhears the lamentations of the

brahmana family about who to sacrifice to feed the demon Bakasura. Kunti

is the perfect Ksatriya queen. She acts decisively to protect the

citizens -- but her action is not like the action of a male ksatriya.

Rather, she enlists her ksatriya son Bhima to go and kill the demon.

 

Yet, the important factor for Kunti is that since she was trained in the

ksatriya mentality, it was not possible for her to stand by and do nothing

while the members of the praja were in danger. That mentality of

protecting the praja had been cultivated in her as she was growing up, and

now she manifested it in the appropriate way.

 

*******************

 

Srila Prabhupada emphasized that a person's varna is not determined by

parentage. This is true for a woman just as much as for a man. How could

it be otherwise? If a woman's varna was determined by parentage, it would

not have been possible for Srila Prabhupada to train the daughters of

meat-eaters and put them on the altar to worship the Deities.

 

Individual women have different natures. They should be united with men

who have similar natures. And they should be offered the appropriate

training so they can support and enliven their husbands in the work that

they do as their offering to Krsna.

 

Not only do women of a ksatriya nature need appropriate training, also

women of a vaisya nature need appropriate training. I have seen a number

of times when young men become trained as cowherds or ox drivers, but the

woman recieves no training in gardening or preserving foods because their

mothers never knew about these things. Then these wives become morose

because their farmer husband cannot provide them the luxuries they are

accustomed to from before they became devotees. Eventually, the marriage

breaks down.

 

How different it would have been if everthing that he did was complemented

by her activities! When he raised some crop, he would be enlivened the

was she preserved it so they could offer it to the Deity in the middle of

winter. While he was out plowing, she could be home showing his children

how to work in the garden. While he was hauling wood with the oxen, she

could be taking care of the cow. And so on. How much better if her

individual tendency had been acknowledged and she was trained in how to

use that tendency in devotional activities which would be enlivening to

her husband.

 

So, no, the object is not to replicate the materialistic varnasrama system

which was rejected by Lord Caitanya, but to give life to the vision of a

spiritually oriented varnasrama society proposed by Srila Prabhupada.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

> You state that a devotee cannot become part of a specific varna without

> being trained (or at least guided to training) by the spiritual master.

> But in the case of these women -- they were trained under Srila Prabhupada

> to fulfill the function of Deity worship.

>

> So -- are they not really brahmanas?

>

> And, if they are not really brahmanas, how can you possibly avoid the

> conclusion that Srila Prabhupada allowed people who were not really

> brahmanas to go on the altar and worship installed Deities?

>

> Could you please answer this directly?

 

 

I, of course, am not a brahmana and therefore do not "know" the answer, but

my opinion is that Srila Prabhupada first trained all of us, girls and boys,

as Vaisnavas. He trained us to chant the maha-mantra.

 

I feel he considered Vaisnavas superior in qualification to brahmanas. Even

amateur Vaisnavas are superior to brahmanas if the brahmanas are not

devotees.

 

I really do not think Srila Prabhupada considered any of us to be "qualified

brahmanas" in the real sense of the Vedic brahmana position which is a very

very hard and long detailed training process. Our chanting of the Holy Name

was our qualification. One devotee asked Srila Prabhupada, "Are we the

lowest of the low?" And Srila Prabhupada said, "You are not even that good".

 

Even Vaisnava, as "simple" as it can be to become, it is not easy. It is a

very high position.

 

Srila Prabhupada said:

"So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all

over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as

Vaisnavas...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be

established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become

Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so

many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest

qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall

down.

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be

sudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava.

But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the

platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system

must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava."

 

 

 

 

But by PRACTICING all of these things; Deity worship, chanting the Holy

Names, brahminical practice, etc., we BECOME purified.

 

Technically, a neophyte devotee, which includes all of us I believe, should

not even chant Hare Krsna:

 

"A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should

not indulge in the worship of Sri Radha and Krsna or the chanting of the

Hare Krsna mantra. even if he does so he cannot get the desired result. One

should therefore chant the names of Nitai-Gaura and worship Them without

false prestige."

 

Who of us did not start out as neophytes?

 

I only keep Pancha tattva on my altar because of this. I am even doubtful of

my ability to do this because I know Lord Caitanya would not want my close

association due to my political and pound shillings pence associations. But

I will continue to chant and hope for purification gradually.

 

 

Simply because Srila Prabhupada put certain people on the altars, men or

women, does not necessarily mean they were fully qualified brahmanas in the

strict sense of the Vedic terms. All good things come in time and Srila

Prabhupada knows this.

 

 

"Before the sunrise even takes place, the light of dawn destroys the fear of

the dangers of the night... and when the sunshine actually appears, one

engages in his duties. Similarly, even before one's chanting of the holy

name is pure, one is freed from all sinful reactions, and when he chants

purely he becomes a lover of Krishna." S.B. 5.24.20.

 

 

Chanting Hare Krsna is superior to Deity worship and should be stressed

more.

 

Also, very importantly, Srila Prabhupada was very hesitant in allowing

worship of the salagrama-sila due to our lack of strict brahminical

standards even when we, men and women, were worshiping arca-vigraha

regularly.

 

"In our KC society, some of the members are very anxious to introduce the

salagrama-sila, but we have purposely refrained from introducing it because

most of the members of the KC movement do not originally come from families

of the brahmana caste. After some time, when we find that they are actually

situated strictly in the line of brahminical behavior, this salagrama-sila

will be introduced."

 

This is very instructional in this regards I think. I do not believe he ever

allowed the salagrama-sila to be worshiped by very many disciples of his to

the day he left. There are only a very few allowed to do so. One or two

actually, as I recall.

 

But again as Srila Prabhupada said in addition to this:

 

....In this age, the worship of the salagrama-sila is not as important as the

chanting of the Holy name of the Lord." Adi 13.86.

 

So, shall we worry about being considered qualified brahmanas or chanting

the Holy name of the Lord?

 

So in the long way around to answering your question; yes I believe Srila

Prabhupada let so-called "unqualified people who were not REALLY brahmanas"

on the altar and worship installed Deities of the Lord. This included men as

well as women.

[Guest guest]

> So in the long way around to answering your question; yes I believe Srila

> Prabhupada let so-called "unqualified people who were not REALLY

> brahmanas" on the altar and worship installed Deities of the Lord. This

> included men as well as women.

So, maybe the first question should be: CAN A MAN BE A BRAHMANA?

And when a man becomes a brahmana we can start worrying if a woman can be

brahmana without a brahmana husband.

But, if neither a man or a woman are, or can right now be, brahmanas and

ksatriyas, than what are we arguing about? Then we do the needful and when

the qualified men finally appear than they can take over.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> I see what you are fighting against here. I personally am not proposing

> that women become ksatriya warriors like Tarabhai-devi from Vedic history.

 

 

Of course, being warrior is one small part of being a ksatriya. There are

myriad other qualities and skills required of a ksatriya regarding executive

administration, management, governing, politics, retribution, justice,

taxation, resource management, occupational management, etc., etc. Also he

must develop the qualities of sauryam, tejo,dhritir, daksyam, etc. Heroism,

power, resourcefulness, etc.

 

 

> But practical experience has shown that -- just like men -- individual

> women have different spirits. If Srila Prabhupada found that a woman had

> a brahminical spirit, he offered that kind of trainig to her, and

> attempted to unite her with a man of similar spirit.

 

 

 

> It is a loss for ISKCON that we have failed up to this point to train our

> devotees according to varna. The most tragic gap at the moment is that we

> have no proper ksatriyas to take up the practical role of organizing

> society and guaranteeing that its members are protected from harm.

 

I think there are ksatriyas "out there" but most would not want to associate

with an (dis)organization like ISKCON which lacks honor amongst its leaders

who hold so tight to "leadership" positions without any previous training

nor varna nature to begin with. What would a ksatriya do in such a society;

like a tiger without claws? The true Ksatriyas would administrate

pretentious brahmanas and sannyasis like any other cheating citizen and thus

they are afraid to allow democratic elections of qualified leaders.

 

 

> Like you, probably, I see that this training would be basically for men --

> not that we would be training women warriors like Tarabhai of old.

 

Actually I am not opposed to some exceptions to the rule either. I have a

feeling Draupadi could probably whip my butt. I believe Rukmini did some

butt-kicking too once and a while. Ya gotta love em!

 

 

> Nevertheless, I do not believe that varnasrama can work unless some type

> of complementary training is provided for women who have a ksatriya spirit

> so that they can adequately help their husbands.

 

I would not want a woman for a wife unless she was "ksatriya" also. I have

suffered the result of not making such discriminating choices in the past.

The training must be there but not in the varnasrama college Srila

Prabhupada designed. He stated that women would not attend varnasrama

college. We cannot deny this.

 

But do we really think such an all-loving, pure devotee like Srila

Prabhupada meant to just cast out the women into the cold dark world as some

so-called men seem to imply? No. Never. He loved his women disciples

equally. Certainly he would want that facility is made for training wives

and mothers as devotees. This MUST be in accordance with the modes of nature

that the women have acquired as the result of the previous life as you have

stated. This is intelligence. The Vedic culture matched men and women

according to their natures. Good idea!

 

 

 

> The snapshot that stands out in my own mind is that of Kunti and the

> Pandavas at Ekachakra, in which Kunti overhears the lamentations of the

> brahmana family about who to sacrifice to feed the demon Bakasura. Kunti

> is the perfect Ksatriya queen. She acts decisively to protect the

> citizens -- but her action is not like the action of a male ksatriya.

> Rather, she enlists her ksatriya son Bhima to go and kill the demon.

>

> Yet, the important factor for Kunti is that since she was trained in the

> ksatriya mentality, it was not possible for her to stand by and do nothing

> while the members of the praja were in danger. That mentality of

> protecting the praja had been cultivated in her as she was growing up, and

> now she manifested it in the appropriate way.

 

 

This is a perfect example.

 

 

> Srila Prabhupada emphasized that a person's varna is not determined by

> parentage. This is true for a woman just as much as for a man. How could

> it be otherwise? If a woman's varna was determined by parentage, it would

> not have been possible for Srila Prabhupada to train the daughters of

> meat-eaters and put them on the altar to worship the Deities.

 

 

Birth IS a consideration in varna. It is not the main consideration, but a

consideration nonetheless. This means the men of ISKCON are also considered

by their birth. Prabhupada did not allow strict brahminical activities like

salagrama-sila worship from ANY of his disciples, men or women, due to

considerations of birth and qualifications.

 

I think we will find, when we become a bit more contrite and humble in our

devotional service attempts, that we will have very few true brahmanas

amongst us. If we had just ONE we would be way ahead of the game. Remember,

Srila Prabhupada did everything alone in the beginning. Powerful brahma

tejas.

 

 

> Individual women have different natures. They should be united with men

> who have similar natures. And they should be offered the appropriate

> training so they can support and enliven their husbands in the work that

> they do as their offering to Krsna.

 

 

This is a crude example I heard a celebrity wife once said: "My mother

taught me to be a wife who is a chef in the kitchen, a maid in the home and

a whore in the bedroom." Sorry, but I hope you get the idea. A wife "does

it" for Krsna. A wise woman would make her husband believe without the

slightest doubt that she is doing it all for him. I gracious husband would

play along, as Krsna did as the henpecked husband, knowing that she is

actually doing it for the Lord as her duty. Both parties benefit.

 

Mother Gandhari wearing the blindfold for her blind husband comes to mind as

one example. Yet she was not so "chaste and shy" as to withhold her

judgement of her blind husband's negligence in raising such a bad son,

Duryodhana. And who would question her true power though not manifested as

"Empire President" or other title of authority? Certainly not Bhimasena nor

Yudhistira!

 

 

> Not only do women of a ksatriya nature need appropriate training, also

> women of a vaisya nature need appropriate training. I have seen a number

> of times when young men become trained as cowherds or ox drivers, but the

> woman recieves no training in gardening or preserving foods because their

> mothers never knew about these things. Then these wives become morose

> because their farmer husband cannot provide them the luxuries they are

> accustomed to from before they became devotees. Eventually, the marriage

> breaks down.

 

 

Yes. Careful training and education must be provided to women.

 

 

Hari!

 

Janesvara dasa

[xenareborn]

 

> I see what you are fighting against here. I personally am not proposing

> that women become ksatriya warriors like Tarabhai-devi from Vedic history.

 

 

Of course, being warrior is one small part of being a ksatriya. There are

myriad other qualities and skills required of a ksatriya regarding executive

administration, management, governing, politics, retribution, justice,

taxation, resource management, occupational management, etc., etc. Also he

must develop the qualities of sauryam, tejo,dhritir, daksyam, etc. Heroism,

power, resourcefulness, etc.

 

 

> But practical experience has shown that -- just like men -- individual

> women have different spirits. If Srila Prabhupada found that a woman had

> a brahminical spirit, he offered that kind of trainig to her, and

> attempted to unite her with a man of similar spirit.

 

 

 

> It is a loss for ISKCON that we have failed up to this point to train our

> devotees according to varna. The most tragic gap at the moment is that we

> have no proper ksatriyas to take up the practical role of organizing

> society and guaranteeing that its members are protected from harm.

 

I think there are ksatriyas "out there" but most would not want to associate

with an (dis)organization like ISKCON which lacks honor amongst its leaders

who hold so tight to "leadership" positions without any previous training

nor varna nature to begin with. What would a ksatriya do in such a society;

like a tiger without claws? The true Ksatriyas would administrate

pretentious brahmanas and sannyasis like any other cheating citizen and thus

they are afraid to allow democratic elections of qualified leaders.

 

 

> Like you, probably, I see that this training would be basically for men --

> not that we would be training women warriors like Tarabhai of old.

 

Actually I am not opposed to some exceptions to the rule either. I have a

feeling Draupadi could probably whip my butt. I believe Rukmini did some

butt-kicking too once and a while. Ya gotta love em!

 

 

> Nevertheless, I do not believe that varnasrama can work unless some type

> of complementary training is provided for women who have a ksatriya spirit

> so that they can adequately help their husbands.

 

I would not want a woman for a wife unless she was "ksatriya" also. I have

suffered the result of not making such discriminating choices in the past.

The training must be there but not in the varnasrama college Srila

Prabhupada designed. He stated that women would not attend varnasrama

college. We cannot deny this.

 

But do we really think such an all-loving, pure devotee like Srila

Prabhupada meant to just cast out the women into the cold dark world as some

so-called men seem to imply? No. Never. He loved his women disciples

equally. Certainly he would want that facility is made for training wives

and mothers as devotees. This MUST be in accordance with the modes of nature

that the women have acquired as the result of the previous life as you have

stated. This is intelligence. The Vedic culture matched men and women

according to their natures. Good idea!

 

 

 

> The snapshot that stands out in my own mind is that of Kunti and the

> Pandavas at Ekachakra, in which Kunti overhears the lamentations of the

> brahmana family about who to sacrifice to feed the demon Bakasura. Kunti

> is the perfect Ksatriya queen. She acts decisively to protect the

> citizens -- but her action is not like the action of a male ksatriya.

> Rather, she enlists her ksatriya son Bhima to go and kill the demon.

>

> Yet, the important factor for Kunti is that since she was trained in the

> ksatriya mentality, it was not possible for her to stand by and do nothing

> while the members of the praja were in danger. That mentality of

> protecting the praja had been cultivated in her as she was growing up, and

> now she manifested it in the appropriate way.

 

 

This is a perfect example.

 

 

> Srila Prabhupada emphasized that a person's varna is not determined by

> parentage. This is true for a woman just as much as for a man. How could

> it be otherwise? If a woman's varna was determined by parentage, it would

> not have been possible for Srila Prabhupada to train the daughters of

> meat-eaters and put them on the altar to worship the Deities.

 

 

Birth IS a consideration in varna. It is not the main consideration, but a

consideration nonetheless. This means the men of ISKCON are also considered

by their birth. Prabhupada did not allow strict brahminical activities like

salagrama-sila worship from ANY of his disciples, men or women, due to

considerations of birth and qualifications.

 

I think we will find, when we become a bit more contrite and humble in our

devotional service attempts, that we will have very few true brahmanas

amongst us. If we had just ONE we would be way ahead of the game. Remember,

Srila Prabhupada did everything alone in the beginning. Powerful brahma

tejas.

 

 

> Individual women have different natures. They should be united with men

> who have similar natures. And they should be offered the appropriate

> training so they can support and enliven their husbands in the work that

> they do as their offering to Krsna.

 

 

This is a crude example I heard a celebrity wife once said: "My mother

taught me to be a wife who is a chef in the kitchen, a maid in the home and

a whore in the bedroom." Sorry, but I hope you get the idea. A wife "does

it" for Krsna. A wise woman would make her husband believe without the

slightest doubt that she is doing it all for him. I gracious husband would

play along, as Krsna did as the henpecked husband, knowing that she is

actually doing it for the Lord as her duty. Both parties benefit.

 

Mother Gandhari wearing the blindfold for her blind husband comes to mind as

one example. Yet she was not so "chaste and shy" as to withhold her

judgement of her blind husband's negligence in raising such a bad son,

Duryodhana. And who would question her true power though not manifested as

"Empire President" or other title of authority? Certainly not Bhimasena nor

Yudhistira!

 

 

> Not only do women of a ksatriya nature need appropriate training, also

> women of a vaisya nature need appropriate training. I have seen a number

> of times when young men become trained as cowherds or ox drivers, but the

> woman recieves no training in gardening or preserving foods because their

> mothers never knew about these things. Then these wives become morose

> because their farmer husband cannot provide them the luxuries they are

> accustomed to from before they became devotees. Eventually, the marriage

> breaks down.

 

 

Yes. Careful training and education must be provided to women.

 

 

Hari!

 

Janesvara dasa

 

 

Hare Krsna

Namaskaram.

Does a woman have to be joined with a man and help him, so she can serve the Lord?

Can she not be trained - just as a unique part of the society - to serve God in the way her karmas are created by her soul?

 

Profound apologies, if I have spoken out of an instinctive self-ego of being a woman.

 

Thanks

Sudha Rajagopalan

[radha_das]

Shtri sudradvijbandhunam trayi na shruti gochara (Srimad Bhagwatam)

Women and Sudras are not allowed to get knowledge of Veds.

 

Na naapiti brahmantam yaati sutradidhharraat (Kaushiki Sahinta)

In kaliyug, the one will only get Brahman-tatv by birth not by tap or worship

Gaytri, Omkaar Mantra, Yagyas are not good for women and Sudras. If they become stubborn to do these then they will go to hell. (Artha Ved)

Gods never accept puja from everyone. They only accept by Brahman, Shatriya and Vaishya. They are only allowed to do yagya. (Manu Smriti)

Why do you allow Sudra to perform Yagya? This is really bad. Why would you allow Sudra for yagya? Wherever Sudras perform yagya we would object that. It is a sin. (Rig Ved)

If I have guts to do this doesn’t mean you are allowed to get permission for Brahmin Initiation. Scriptures needs divine energy for this. (Mimansa Darshan)

[radha_das]

Last but not least

 

 

According to our vedic scriptures, For Women marriage is their Yagyopavit. This is only samskaar for women which is performed by Mantras.