Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 >From Srila Prabhupada's disciple Proghosa. Ys TS > >Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net> >Ameyatma.ACBSP <ameyatma (AT) iname (DOT) com> >Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:15 PM >Re: Erroneous Data of the Colourful Eccentric > > >>Dear Ameyatma Prabhu, >> >>Please Accept my humble obeisances. All glories to His Divine Grace Srila >>Prabhupada. >>I just thought I might add a little to this conversation. As a father of >>beautiful twin daughters who have been in my care now for 14 years and a >>married man who has been "spoiled" by intimate dealings with "woman" as >>Srila Prabhupada once joked, I feel it necessary to try and help clear up a >>few misunderstandings that are apparently shared by a small number of men >>and women in ISKCON today. >> >>The principle of equality between the sexes is to be understood purely from >>the spiritual point of view. From the material point of view - no two men >>are even equal! That is a fact. So if there is someone arguing that men and >>women are equal from material point of view - then they are either ignorant >>or arrogant. That is all. >> >>Anyone who has actually raised girls from birth would never make such a >>nonsensical assertion that boys and girls are materially equal. Any man who >>actually protects and serves his wife would never accept that her material >>nature - is the equal of his own! They are as different as night and day. >>When studied honestly, and Srimad Bhagavatam and thus our Bhagavat culture >>is reserved for "Purified men who are thoroughly HONEST" one has to admit >>that woman as a rule is very much expert and indeed "intelligent" in >matters >>that are dedicated to arranging for immediate comfort in this material >>world. The "tactics" of woman in this regard are legendary! But Bhagavatam >>is clear on this point - the material world is not our home! We do not >>belong here! We are pure spirit soul. We have no business setting down >roots >>here and making a comfortable home. The woman is by nature driven to >>dedicate her herself to the the "illusory task" of pretending that we will >>live happily ever after in this very very TEMPORARY WORLD! In these matters >>woman is more than intelligent - she is brilliant! She so surpasses man in >>this regard it isn't a contest! And it is only when man seeks to delight in >>her company and swim in the bountiful praise and glorification which she is >>so eager to shower upon him, does he also find meaning or purpose and >indeed >>pleasure in sharing her vision of a permanent home in this miserable and so >>very temporary material world! From the hut to the skyscraper, for the most >>part, all built by men, the primary inspiration is to be found to be woman! >>That is a fact! Even the women of the most advanced culture in the >>world -Vaisnava Culture - are more inclined to delay "full commitment" to >>Krsna and His Representative, until they have their man - home - and >>children! So whereas, a man upon hearing the instructions of the "sadhu" >>severs himself from the idea of setting up a nest here in the land of death >>and disease and destruction - a woman will seek to delay real surrender to >>the sadhu until the end of life - arguing that it would be better if I set >>up "camp" here in this miserable place and give birth to a few children and >>instruct THEM in the spiritual science! So the essential difference between >>a man and a woman, from the Bhagavat's perspective is that a MAN is capable >>of immediately taking up the service of the senses of the Lord under the >>direction of the Spiritual Master and and a woman is advised to "dovetail" >>her senses, her naturally sensual nature, in the service of the Lord in the >>safe and protected environment provided by the father, husband or son. >> >>When a man takes up Krsna Consciousness from another culture, or is born >>into it,he is advised by the Spiritual Master first , if possible, to >pursue >>lifelong brahmacari, avoiding the distractions and artificial necessities >>that go hand and hand with "nesting" in family life. That is described by >>the Spiritual Master as best! That is a fact. In doing so such a >>"brahmacari" is available to pursue his devotional service "full time" and >>more importantly he is at the "beck and call" of his savior, his Spiritual >>Master! If such a position is not acceptable to a man then it is understood >>that his intelligence is still covered to some degree and he is still not >>yet convinced of the flickering and very temporary nature of this material >>world. Nothing teaches him "reality from illusion" more rapidly and >>completely than honest household life! That is a fact. So the Spiritual >>Master will advise that he marry and go through the "school of hard knocks" >>and simultaneously continue in his sadhana. Intimate association with a >>"nester woman" is a CONCESSION for a foolish man who is not yet convinced >of >>the FUTILITY of trading a little bit of sex pleasure for a life of SLAVERY >>as the provider for the wife and children. That's all! In Vrndavana in >1975, >>His Divine Grace confirmed this fact on two separate occasions. Once he was >>asked by one of my godbrothers "if marriage was a falldown"? He replied, >>"What is the question of falldown - for a fallen fellow"! We all delighted >>in his candor. Another time Srila Prabhupada stopped and commented about >the >>utter futility of life in this miserable material world, " We have traded >>our natural position as Krsna's loving servants for life in this miserable >>place. It is most embarrassing! We have come to this world for two reasons >>only - TO PASS SEMEN AND STOOL"! Such comments may appear harsh and >>exceedingly pessimistic. But they are delivered by the Spiritual Master >>specifically for the purpose of "cutting" our attachment to this rotten >>place. All of us recall Srila Prabhupada's converstation with Hayagriva >>prabhu, recordedin the Lilamrta and elsewhere. Upon hearing from Srila >>Prabhupada that >>Vaisnavagrhastas were expected to strictly follow the four regulative >>principals and >>only share in >>sexual relations with their wife once a month and only for the purpose of >>procreation, Hayagriva >>prabhu responded "That's all! Well then it would seem better to just give >it >>up!" Srila Prabhupada >>replied, "Yes that is the whole idea!" >> >>So man is advised to avoid marriage if at all possible - even though it is >>understood that most men will still need to marry and go through the >ordeal. >>Indeed in the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada writes >that >>for the society that wishes to create a congenial and spiritually advanced >>atmosphere marriage for boys by 26 and girls by 16 is "compulsory"! >However >>woman in general is never advised to remain brahmacari or >>brahmacarini(whatever). Indeed, in Vedic culture, Srila Prabhupada >>emphasized >>that the duty of the father to arrange the marriage of the daughter was so >>"compulsory" that if the daughter's marriage was not arranged by puberty >>then the father was obliged to injest the daughters first menstration! "Of >>course" he said, "they would not actually do, but the point was made to >>emphasize the importants of early marriage"! Now we know that there is no >>certainty for anything in Kali Yuga - marriage or otherwise. Srila >>Prabhupada once said that "we were not specificly interested in social >>reform but that society would naturally make social adjustments as they >>became Krsna Conscious". >> >>Any discussion as to the intelligence of woman, as compared to the >>intelligence of a man, must be studied from this point. Generally woman is >>considered less intelligent than man (even those who are attracted to Sri >>Krsna's samkirtan movement) on account of her natural enthusiam for >>"setting up camp" in the material world. This is reality. Men are initially >>only willing to undergo the hassle of providing for and raising children on >>account of the "Heavenly nectar of sex life". This is confirmed by the >>Second Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. For women it is more or less the same. >>However because women can only enjoy this "Heavenly nectar" for about >thirty >>days and then unless they are not healthy, their enjoyment ends and they >are >>pregnant, they tend to include a far wider range of plans and dreams in >>regards to the relationship with the husband. And each of these plans and >>dreams is going to cost the husband dearly - in terms of time, work and >most >>importantly money! The romantic fantasy ends and the work begins! So >genera >>lly woman's mind hovers in the realm of PREYAS and a man's mind will hover >>in the realm of SREYAS! Even materially - what to speak of spiritually! >> >>Now there appears to be two very distinct points to the controversy. One is >>the fact that some women and some men have an apparent problem with Srila >>Prabhupada's teachings on all these matters. Indeed some of these >>individuals, upon reading some of my comments above, would reject them as >>being of a highly interpretive nature. One that is perhaps jaded by my own >>personal perception of His Divine Grace and/or my own experiences in >>household life - be they good or bad. Truth be told, however, I am only >>repeating verbatim His Divine Grace and fortunate fool that I am, my >>experiences as a maried man for the past 18 years as a husband( to the same >>woman) and father to four sons and two daughters, has served to convince >me >>more now than ever, of the overwhelming enormity and clarity of each and >>every Golden Nugget of Nectar that I find in Srila Prabhupada's writings >and >>the treasured memories of His Personal comments and statements that I was >so >>fortunate to hear! Many of the comments of His Divine Grace that I was >>fortunately able to personally hear, loom large in my mind and confirm my >>fallen and foolish nature. But I do not resent them! I do not try to adjust >>them and I never, never, never, never, ever, ever REJECT THEM! >> >>This is I believe the second part of the controversy. These devotees who >>have expressed doubts are not innocently expressing "doubts" about the >>veracity of Krsna Consciousness. Neither are they expressing philosophical >>misunderstandings "LIKE ARJUNA" in the Bhagavad Gita. >>Arjuna certainly expressed doubts. But he clearly asserted in Sixth Chapter >>"BUT FOR YOU - I CAN FOUND NO ONE WHO CAN RELEIVE MY DOUBT!!" This is the >>difference! No one BUT Sri Krsna could relieve Arjuna of his doubts. These >>mothers have stated that they have "problems" with Srila Prabhupada's >>explanations on various points. And perhaps the most telling feature of >>their position is their expression of >>distrust or even dislike" for the CONFIDENCE of His Divine Grace AC >>Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada!!!!! The fact that He "thinks He knows >>everything' about the Absolute Truth. The fact that he knows "everything >>there is to be known and there is nothing further to be known" >>( BG 7.2) is found to be very irritating to these "devotees?" So whereas >>most devotees automatically accept everything on the basis of precisely >>what they believe His Divine Grace has stated on a particular subject - >>these devotees have expressed their doubts as to the possibility of >>resolving their doubts if they CONFINE themselves to simply hearing >>"EXCLUSIVELY" from Srila Prabhupada! To me - this is the problem - IN A >>NUTSHELL! >> >>Now where have we seen this most recently? Well last year our godbrother >>Hari Kesa prabhu began preaching his conclusions about the teachings of >>Srila Prabhupada as regards to what constituted "licit" and "illicit" sex. >>It was correctly determined that he was way off the mark on that one and >>the GBC simply confirmed that fact for the general devotees and declared >him >>most definitely unfit to represent His Divine Grace at that time and >>demanded his resignation! Bas! No fuss - no muss! End of story. >> >>So this nonsense can all be handled as easily and expeditiously as that >>little incident. If the devotees in question,both the women and the MEN >WHO >>AT PRESENT ARE WEEPING IN A PUDDLE OF NOBLE TEARS for these women,are >>determined to in any way shape or form present the teachings of His Divine >>Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami as relative to their's or anyone's puny >>adjustments and interpretations, then they should be removed form any >>position that would ultimately give them any opportunity to control or >>influence the formal presentation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings, as >>representatives of His Divine Grace's ISKCON mission! Bas! No fuss - no >>muss >> >>Just some thoughts prabhu. >>Ever your humble servant >>Praghosa Das / New Talavana >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 Truth be told, however, I am only >>repeating verbatim His Divine Grace and fortunate fool that I am, my >>experiences as a maried man for the past 18 years as a husband( to the same >>woman) and father to four sons and two daughters, has served to convince >me >>more now than ever, of the overwhelming enormity and clarity of each and >>every Golden Nugget of Nectar that I find in Srila Prabhupada's writings >and >>the treasured memories of His Personal comments and statements that I was >so >>fortunate to hear! Many of the comments of His Divine Grace that I was >>fortunately able to personally hear, loom large in my mind and confirm my >>fallen and foolish nature. But I do not resent them! I do not try to adjust >>them and I never, never, never, never, ever, ever REJECT THEM! Jaya! ! Yes!....simple truth. This point I've been trying to make off and on...we must hold up the standard, neither resenting nor trying to "smudge" it into something more palatable...truth is truth....our vision is the simple clear presentation of Srimad Bhagavatam, I've been married 15 years, with three boys, and I second, I also confirm almost everything you've said by my own expereince , although I leave room for some exceptions amongst devotees in female bodies, I've met many, especially in vanaprastha stage, who are very elevated, more elevated than myself, at least this is my perception, their devotion to Krsna often manifesting in voluntarily teaching and exhorting of the general, basic principles of saintly womanhood most useful for the broadest range of women in human society, "yad yad acarti sresthas'.........thank-you Praghosa prabhu...... your servant, and one of those "foolish persons" who've tried to enjoy this world like some camel, I'm so stupid it scares me...and I'll admit it on national t.v.. At least that leaves room for hearing "Golden Nuggets" from Srila Prabhupada who IS our lighthouse in this darkness of ignorance....may I never think myself overly intelligent....Gauranga save me. Dina Sharana dasa > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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