Guest guest Posted January 15, 2000 Report Share Posted January 15, 2000 >"COM: Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >From Srila Prabhupada's disciple Proghosa. > >Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net> > >Ameyatma.ACBSP <ameyatma (AT) iname (DOT) com> > >Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:15 PM > >Re: Erroneous Data of the Colourful Eccentric > > > >>I just thought I might add a little to this conversation. As a father of [six children] and a married man who has been "spoiled" by intimate dealings with "woman" as Srila Prabhupada once joked, I feel it necessary to try and help clear up a few misunderstandings that are apparently shared by a small number of men and women in ISKCON today. > >> As one of Srila Prabhupada's empowered and ecstatic book distributors of all-time, Praghosa Prabhu is certainly very much dear to us all. However, when it comes to his personal "experience" in married life, he should have the honesty to note that whatever he speaks arises from *his* experience. While what he professes to "simply repeat" from Srila Prabhupada may be true in regards to the common populace, these quotes lose their relevance when applied to the spiritual strata. *Naturally*, there are differences between the sexes, no one is denying that. However, that being said, *generalizations* are precisely that -- *GENERALizations* and applicable according to the appropriate context, not invariably to *every* case or circumstance. As Praghosa Prabhu himself admits: > >>The principle of equality between the sexes is to be understood purely from the spiritual point of view. From the material point of view - no two men are even equal! Consequently, we can extrapolate that the more we adhere to the *spiritual* principles -- not ones based on *material* attraction -- and develop our relationships accordingly, the more the differences beween devotee men and women become *immaterial* and their marriages truly spiritual and *egalitarian*. Indeed, spiritually speaking, there is no reason why women cannot be more advanced than their husbands. Were not the gopis and the brahmanas' wives superior to their husbands? Let's not import material conceptions into the spritual. If we sincerely pursued a spiritual life and were also blessed with a similarly qualified spouse, instead of following the stereotypical pattern that Prabhupada routinely criticizes as *material*, then perhaps our experience in household life wouldn't be so disappointing or bitter. It would be closer to Vaikuntha. > That is a fact. So if there is someone arguing that men and women are equal from material point of view - then they are either ignorant or arrogant. That is all. *Ignorance* ultimately means not following the principles (ie four regs, chanting, etc). *Arrogance* results from a lack of introspection. Look into your own heart. Stop laying blame elsewhere when it lies within. Study where the other three fingers are pointing, Prabhu. This is my frank advice to you. The point is that all the negative statements you make reference to about women don't automatically apply to devotee women, Prabhupada's spiritual daughters. To the contrary, IN GENERAL, devotee women are "transcendental goddesses of fortune." These are also "Prabhupada's words." Any other attitude towards our ladies is simply one-sided, insulting and offensive -- not only to the ladies but to our children as well. If your (Praghosa Prabhu's) experience in household life was so terrible, then we genuinely feel sorry for you. But this is faulty logic -- besides a great blunder -- to extend one's limited experience to all devotee women (and men). Remember the gopis, my friend. Ours is not a "sour grapes" or sexist philosophy, but a spiritual one. "A man who meets a [cultured] woman and treats her as a lady [ie, devotee] is a hero. One who takes a lady and turns her into a woman [an instrument for his lust] is a villain." (a famous film director, paraphrased) "Speaking from experience." Yes, but whose? FULL-o-sophically, Srila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2000 Report Share Posted January 15, 2000 Hare Krsna Maharajas and prabhus, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Well what can I say in response to this pathetic analysis by Mr. Srila Das. First off I will say this, In your efforts to appear "wise and above the fray" you have literally stepped on a frigging land mine. You have publically implied that my wonderful wife, who is a model of absolute chastity in the extreme, and sent to me by Lord Sri Krsna Himself, to protect and uplift this fallen soul, is in any way shape or form something other than a wonderful aspiring devotee and worthy of my service, protection, love and indeed worship as a sincere representative of Srila Prabhupada. I could write an entire paper just extolling her glories and and still I could not properly detail precisely what a wonderful wife and servant she has been me, and what an unbelievable mother and role model she has been to our 4 sons and 2 daughters. But as you have arbitarily assumed the right to blasphemously imply that my simple and irrefutable comments are due to my "Terrible experiences in householder life - in the company of my unqualified wife", then my describing her glories, her patience and service, her absolute faith in His Divine Grace, her humility, her cautious and eager desire to never offend a single vaisnava or vaisnavi etc. etc., would be like casting pearls to a swine, nay to a worm! Unlike you, my wife and most of the wonderful devotee mothers with whom I shared my comments, all chuckled in agreement with my simple points. They did not take issue or offense. In fact they agreed, and in a roundtable discussion one of them pointed out that without understanding this basic difference between men and women, then fathers would attempt to place their daughters in ashramas under the "protection" of sannyasis and brahmacaris, as opposed to trying their utmost to arrange for a safe and sacred marriage for their daughters! Nothing I said can be denied by "HONEST" women and certainly not by honest men who love their wives and serve them and wish to protect them. What is your history Mr Srila? Have you ever had the honor of loving, serving and protecting one of Srila Prabhupada's loyal servants? Do you have any daughters? Have you given your wife any sons? Does your wife serve you as humbly and chastely as does Mother Radhanga Devi Dasi serve me? You pretend to be such an advocate for the welfare of the women but what is your record in this regard? I have strained for the last 18 years to care for and facilitate the Krsna Consciousness of my wife and children. Tirelessly. My efforts are inspired by both all the instructions of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and the enormous power of my wifes service, shyness, and chastity. She has wisely "worked" Srila Prabhupada's not so secret formula of chastity,shyness and service on me and the results speak for themselves. What is your record? As you have publically impuned the character of my dearmost servant and friend and the chaste mother of my children and a very loyal follower of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, I will not discuss the philosophical issues of my paper with you. Under the pretense of "philosophical banter" you have offended my most trusted and loyal wife. Now I will personally teach you a lesson in manners and show you just how dangerous it is to offend such a chaste woman. Publically apologise to her or I will make it my sworn obligation to come to Berkely, with my 4 sons, and we will all drag you to the feet of my wife and their mother, and if you do not immediately fall at her feet and beg for her forgiveness, we will all beat a humble apology out of you! If you think this to be an idle threat, then you do not know me as well as you pretend. After you have apologised, then we can discuss the philsophical merits or lack thereof - until the cows come home. But at this point it would be ridiculous to go back and forth with someone on higher philosophical issues, when they lack common decency and the understanding of how to appreciate a woman of Mother Radhanga's qualities. I remain your servant Praghosa Das WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA) <cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu> Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se <IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Prabhupada.Disciples (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Prabhupada.Disciples (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; >To : btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net <>To : btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>; praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net> Saturday, January 15, 2000 1:32 AM Speaking from experience >>"COM: Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >>From Srila Prabhupada's disciple Proghosa. > >> >Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net> >> >Ameyatma.ACBSP <ameyatma (AT) iname (DOT) com> >> >Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:15 PM >> >Re: Erroneous Data of the Colourful Eccentric >> > >> >>I just thought I might add a little to this conversation. As a father of >[six children] and a married man who has been "spoiled" by intimate dealings >with "woman" as Srila Prabhupada once joked, I feel it necessary to try and >help clear up a few misunderstandings that are apparently shared by a small >number of men and women in ISKCON today. >> >> > >As one of Srila Prabhupada's empowered and ecstatic book distributors of >all-time, Praghosa Prabhu is certainly very much dear to us all. However, >when it comes to his personal "experience" in married life, he should have the >honesty to note that whatever he speaks arises from *his* experience. > >While what he professes to "simply repeat" from Srila Prabhupada may be true >in regards to the common populace, these quotes lose their relevance when >applied to the spiritual strata. *Naturally*, there are differences between >the sexes, no one is denying that. However, that being said, *generalizations* >are precisely that -- *GENERALizations* and applicable according to the >appropriate context, not invariably to *every* case or circumstance. > >As Praghosa Prabhu himself admits: >> >>The principle of equality between the sexes is to be understood purely >from the spiritual point of view. From the material point of view - no two >men are even equal! > >Consequently, we can extrapolate that the more we adhere to the *spiritual* >principles -- not ones based on *material* attraction -- and develop our >relationships accordingly, the more the differences beween devotee men and >women become *immaterial* and their marriages truly spiritual >and *egalitarian*. > >Indeed, spiritually speaking, there is no reason why women cannot be more >advanced than their husbands. Were not the gopis and the brahmanas' wives >superior to their husbands? Let's not import material conceptions into the >spritual. If we sincerely pursued a spiritual life and were also blessed with >a similarly qualified spouse, instead of following the stereotypical pattern >that Prabhupada routinely criticizes as *material*, then perhaps our >experience in household life wouldn't be so disappointing or bitter. It would >be closer to Vaikuntha. > >> That is a fact. So if there is someone arguing that men and women are equal >from material point of view - then they are either ignorant or arrogant. That >is all. > >*Ignorance* ultimately means not following the principles (ie four regs, >chanting, etc). *Arrogance* results from a lack of introspection. Look into >your own heart. Stop laying blame elsewhere when it lies within. Study where >the other three fingers are pointing, Prabhu. This is my frank advice to you. > > >The point is that all the negative statements you make reference to about >women don't automatically apply to devotee women, Prabhupada's spiritual >daughters. To the contrary, IN GENERAL, devotee women are "transcendental >goddesses of fortune." These are also "Prabhupada's words." Any other >attitude towards our ladies is simply one-sided, insulting and offensive -- >not only to the ladies but to our children as well. > >If your (Praghosa Prabhu's) experience in household life was so terrible, then >we genuinely feel sorry for you. But this is faulty logic -- besides a great >blunder -- to extend one's limited experience to all devotee women (and men). >Remember the gopis, my friend. > >Ours is not a "sour grapes" or sexist philosophy, but a spiritual one. > >"A man who meets a [cultured] woman and treats her as a lady [ie, devotee] is >a hero. One who takes a lady and turns her into a woman [an instrument for his >lust] is a villain." >(a famous film director, paraphrased) > >"Speaking from experience." Yes, but whose? > >FULL-o-sophically, > >Srila dasa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.