Speaking from experience

[Guest guest]

Dear Praghosa,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

First of all, I was very much engladdened and satisfied to hear you extol the

sublime qualities of your dear wife. She sounds like an extraordinary devotee.

We need to hear more such sincere and honest appreciation for the service of

our womenfolk - both within the ashram and the home -- instead of a so-called

philosophy that covertly aims to minimize and demean them. This is what I

meant to say.

 

 

You wrote:

 

> Publically apologise to her or I will…

 

There is no need for any "or I will… [threat of violence]. If you feel that

I have publicly impu[g]ned the character of your wife," then I am extremely

sorry indeed. In fact, if I could better relieve my offense by flying down

there to New Talavan and apologizing to your wife in person, then I would so

at my own expense. Insulting a chaste lady certainly causes a man's ruination

and downfall. What more can I say than, "Please forgive me," if you have

taken any offense?

 

I think you may have misconstrued what I wrote, however. Kindly inform me

what specifically has so unjustly provoked you. (I would suggest a more

private forum is more appropriate if this letter of explanation is not

sufficient.)

 

Please remember, however, that I was responding to *your* words, and nothing

personal was necessarily implied to your good wife, save and except as how you

have represented *your* experience within household life by your (one-sided)

portrayal of women. Otherwise, what are we to think, that you gain your

realizations about women from experience outside of marriage?

 

As far as "impugning the character of [ladies in general], kindly reread your

own posting where you publicly malign two women whom you do not even know.

Not only do you judge them, but you condemn them, and if you possessed the

executive power, you would also punish them by expelling from any position

within ISKCON. Based upon what evidence and criteria however? Some hearsay

over the internet, that's all. How Krsna conscious or judicious is that?

 

Since I am somewhat acquainted with the ladies whom you so nonchalantly wish

to exterminate from the spiritual sky, I therefore responded in kind to your

aggressive mood by attempting to reflect back at you the implications of your

own anger. That technique was obviously ineffective, as you have simply

turned it upon me as well.

 

I know that I have a big problem with repressed anger. But I am honestly

trying to deal with it. I humbly suggest that your difficulties with such

bottled up anger may outdo mine. What I mean by "doing some introspection" is

that if you cannot do root anger out by yourself, you may very well require

the help of someone - spiritually as well as professionally -- who is

qualified help you. I am presently in therapy myself and also seeking the

association of advanced Vaisnavas for guidance. I would respectfully submit

that you have more serious issues with anger to deal with than I. At least I

don't have the problem of making violent threats at others over exaggerated

offenses.

 

It there was anything insinuating, it was meant as an impetus for you to do

some self-evaluation. I apologize for that bungled attempt also. I presumed

myself to be something of your equal, thus I thought I could correct you. I

am a poor friend indeed. In the future I shall concentrate better at

correcting myself. So let that be your solace: that I have learned a great

lesson about the nature of friendship. I sincerely regret that it had to be at

your expense.

 

Please forgive my offenses. I am a conditioned soul very much attached to the

idea of enjoying within this material world and am totally bewildered in

issues regarding the opposite sex. Therefore, as "a goat can eat anything and

a madman can say anything," kindly disregard whatever this foolish person

(myself) has to say.

 

 

With all the humility at my command,

 

Your fallen godbrother,

Srila dasa

 

PS: Please be informed that issuing threats of violence over the internet and

across interstate lines is a serious federal offense. If you don't retract

your threat, I shall be obliged to report you to the appropriate authorities,

including your own internet server. Please try to *own* your feelings and

restrain yourself from blaming others for seeming "offenses." Unleashing our

anger indiscriminately will not be auspicious for us materially or

spiritually.

 

 

A NOTE OF EXPLANATION

 

[i wrote:]

> >If your (Praghosa Prabhu's) experience in household life was so terrible,

then we genuinely feel sorry for you. But this is faulty logic -- besides a

great blunder -- to extend one's limited experience to all devotee women (and

men).

 

I am being purposefully facetious here in order that you might see the other

side of things - the positive. Thank you so much for glorifying your wife!

Women need to be appreciated for the tremendous sacrifices they make to raise

physically, emotionally and spiritually healthy children. Responsible fathers

and husbands like yourself also need to be commended. I therefore offer my

sincere pranams to you as well. I remember meeting you years ago and could

feel some of your burden and anxieites you were going through.

 

It is not a material business supporting a family and raising Krsna conscious

children. Prabhupada said that it is far more difficult to be a Krsna

conscious householder than an easy-going sannyasi. However, it is far better

to be an honestly struggling householder than a bogus renunciant. A

pretender (such as myself), who is neither renounced and avoids the struggle

to sincerely serve others, makes no advancement.

 

> >"A man who meets a [cultured] woman and treats her as a lady [ie, devotee]

is a hero. One who takes a lady and turns her into a woman [an instrument for

his lust] is a villain." (a famous film director, paraphrased)

 

If this is the offending paragraph, I intended it to suggest how you

were *portraying* women, reducing marriage to an exchange of sense

gratification. I NEVER meant for it to refer to you or your wife, okay?

 

Again, my humble pranams (respects) to your good wife. I never meant any

offense to her. Again and again, please forgive me if you still consider that

I have made some offense. You have taken my response the wrong way.

[Guest guest]

Praghosa wrote to Srila Das:

 

> But as

> you have arbitarily assumed the right to blasphemously imply that my

> simple and irrefutable comments are due to my "Terrible experiences in

> householder life - in the company of my unqualified wife",

 

Madhusudani replied:

> Maybe you could come up with some way of defending your wife's honor

> that doesn't involve breaking the law?

 

And before doing that dangerous act, you may re-read his letter. The "- in

the company of my unqualified wife" is your extrapolation. What Srila did,

however, which was not respectful, could easily be taken as an insult. But

after reading the letter, in a more Vaishnava way, you may realize that you

are maybe using Srila's so called offense towards your wife as a pretext to

justify your own anger against him. This is not indeed a Vaishnava attitude.

Your threat is certainly not what we expect from an older devotee. Please

help us keep New Vrindavan only an historical event, and not a pattern in

our society. If the chastity of your wife is in question, rest assure that

we all are convinced of it after reading your wonderful eulogy.

 

Your humble friend, Akhilesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada.

Due to the fact that His Grace Srila Prabhu is an old acquaintence from New

York, I expressed my dissatisfaction with his insinuations in such a way as

to allow him to understand just how disturbed with his comments I actually

was. Since in the beginning of his article he actually claimed to "Love

Praghosa prabhu very much on account of his efforts to distribute Srila

Prabhupada's books" I naturally assumed that my reaction to his comments

would affect him very positively and he would, being an aspiring devotee,

not wish to offend someone he has just professed to love nor would he wish

to offend someone so dear to the one he professes to love! As he did not

choose to write to me directly, as the godbrother he is, with his comments,

and initiate the letter with the customary etiquite reserved for Godbrothers

with whom he claims to have a great deal of love and respect, I thought it

beneficial to display my extreme dissapointment with his muddling up the

content of my letter to Ameyatma Prabhu.

 

He addresses "negative comments" in my letter, yet fails to point out

precisely what those negative comments actually are.

That is dishonest. Even to refer to any of my comments as "negative" only

betrays the simple truth that many men actually take the honest description

of precisely what constitutes the principle difference between men and

women, (from the material perspective), the natural urge for women to need

and seek the security and shelter of household life, as being a NEGATIVE

THING! Such men who view such an honest description of the woman's nature

as NEGATIVE are certainly not going to be particularly interested in

facilitating that nature in Krsna's service! They are going to emphasize

"equality" and minimize household life as being a "NEGATIVE" ashrama, if not

with their words then at least by example.This is the example set by leaders

like Kirtananda Swami and others. But if one reads my letter, with patience

and attention, and above all honesty, you will not find any such description

of this as negative. I am only describing this as reality, as it pertains to

all of us, men and women, and how the honest understanding of householder

life, guided by the wise counsel of our Srila Prabhupada, can yield very

wonderful and eternal benefit!

 

Also His Grace Srila Prabhu, hearing my comments as "negative" as opposed to

a description of simple reality, then takes the liberty to ignore my direct

statement in the end of the letter wherein I clearly point out that my

realizations are NOT based upon any NEGATIVE experiences in household life,

but upon the relationship between what Srila Prbhupada has taught and what I

have observed as a man who has been given the opportunity to care for and

protect my wonderful wife and daughters and befriend so many wonderful

godsisters! So indirectly he infers that I am not to be believed and he

knows the real reason or reasons behind my comments. That is the attitude of

one imbued with the love and respect he claims to have for me? "I love you

Praghosa but you are either deluded or a liar - or both!" Ignoring my

claims to the contrary, he smugly and arrogantly assumes the authority to

direct the discussion away from what I actually stated in the letter, and

the merits or demerits of that, and directs his attention (and everyone

elses as well) to what he imagines I might be feeling or imagining on

account of my terrible experiences. That in itself is goofy but as I am told

that he has at present submitted himself to the school of psycology at

Berkely for the past two years, his tactic makes perfect sense. His

unecessary indulgence in speculating as to WHY I might have said the things

I said, as opposed to discussing what I actually said and whether or not

there might be some beneficial truth to found in them may be an interesting

excersise for him, based upon his new field of study, but it is of no real

value to the discussion at hand. Modern psychology is decidedly atheistic,

and places the individual squarely in the center as the enjoyer. He then

finishes off his analysis of my mind - not my comments - with a stern "That

is my Frank advice to you!" Even from the material perspective, a wise man

knows that 'Frank advice" should be given only when it is sought. And from

the perspective of Krsna Consciousness we do not give "Frank advice" to

Godbrothers and Godsisters unless we have earned their love and respect by

accepting as much responsibility and service as they have. I have been

informed that His Grace Srila Prabhu has never been capable of accepting the

responsibility for caring for, protecting, guiding and providing for a wife

and any children. Therefore it is a little silly of him to take that tone

with any man who has demonstrated that he is prepared to give his last drop

of blood for Srila Prabhupada and His wonderful daughters.

 

I have addressed other aspects of this whole men and womens issue business

and I will forward those comments to our godbrother as well. Perhaps he will

understand a little more clearly what my views on these subjects are.

 

As far as my threatening him with a little "embarrassment in Berkely" it was

for effect. I assumed that as a godbrother and aspiring devotee he would

immediately understand that he had severely displeased someone he claimed to

love and respect. As a man, if I thought that I had offended a godbrother by

even indirectly or without any intention whatsoever criticising the

character of his chaste and humble wife, I would submit myself at his feet

and then hers and beg them both for forgiveness. Devotees, men and women

both, who know me, know that is a fact. I still assume that His Grace Srila

Prabhu is no less an aspiring devotee than myself, so I will assume that he

did not intentiionally mean to offend. If my expression of dissatisfaction

and threats of a physical chastisement were taken too literally, then I

apologise to both His Grace Srila Prabhu and all the Vaisnavas. Those who

know me, know that I would never actually physically harm any devotee,

although I have been given the honor and pleasure of physically defending my

godbrothers and godsisters more than a few times in my life. Besides that -

my youngest son, Gauravani Das is not yet one year old and He has not yet

mastered his right cross and his left jab still needs a lot of work! And he

has insisted on being included in any trip that involves "defending his

mama's honor"! So His Grace Srila Prabhu can sleep easy for awhile!

 

Also on a second reading of HG Srila Prabhus letter it is clear that he was

not intentionally trying to offend Mother Radhanga. By quoting some unnamed

film director he implied that perhaps my "terrible experiences" in household

life (as he extrapolated) were quite possibly due to my having "Treated my

lady as a woman" as opposed to the opposite. Having virtually no knowledge

of any aspect of my personal life whatsoever or the relationship of myself

and my wife, I think that it is safe to assume that such a statement would

also not be so casually delivered by someone who claims to be an aspiring

devotee. In your efforts to appear valorious Srila Prabhu, you have

forgotten the age old maxim, "Discretion is the BETTER part of Valor!"

 

So henceforth let us all confine ourselves to discussing these issues from

the perspective of philosophy and fact. Let us refrain from unnecessary

personal comments and psycological analysis. That will not help anything. We

are all, men and women both, Srila Prabhupada's aspiring angels. We are

commisioned with nothing less than saving the Western world! So we do not

have time for "Squabbling" over personal issues. There is only one real

issue and that is this: The Mortality rate in this material world is 100% So

before we leave this body we must do our best to become fully surrendered to

Lord Sri Krsna and His Dearmost Representative Srila Prabhupada. All of us.

Every man and Every woman! Our process is simple. In the "Teachings of Queen

Kunti" Srila Prabhupada states that ANYONE who is blessed with a tongue and

two ears can by chanting the Holy Names become fully Krsna Conscious and Go

back to Home - Back to Godhead! Last I looked these requisite items were

shared by every man and woman ever created by the Lord. So let the Kirtan

begin!

 

HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE --HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA

HARE HARE !!!!!!!!!!!

All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

 

Humbly offering my prostrated obeisances at the feet of all my godbrothers

and godsisters

I beg to remain ever your loving brother

Praghosa Das

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COM: Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)

<Akhilesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

<cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu>; Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>

Cc: COM: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net

<btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

<India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Saturday, January 15, 2000 8:48 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2933780 from COM]

>

>Praghosa wrote to Srila Das:

>

>> But as

>> you have arbitarily assumed the right to blasphemously imply that my

>> simple and irrefutable comments are due to my "Terrible experiences in

>> householder life - in the company of my unqualified wife",

>

>Madhusudani replied:

>> Maybe you could come up with some way of defending your wife's honor

>> that doesn't involve breaking the law?

>

>And before doing that dangerous act, you may re-read his letter. The "- in

>the company of my unqualified wife" is your extrapolation. What Srila did,

>however, which was not respectful, could easily be taken as an insult. But

>after reading the letter, in a more Vaishnava way, you may realize that you

>are maybe using Srila's so called offense towards your wife as a pretext to

>justify your own anger against him. This is not indeed a Vaishnava

attitude.

>Your threat is certainly not what we expect from an older devotee. Please

>help us keep New Vrindavan only an historical event, and not a pattern in

>our society. If the chastity of your wife is in question, rest assure that

>we all are convinced of it after reading your wonderful eulogy.

>

>Your humble friend, Akhilesvara dasa

>