Guest guest Posted January 29, 2000 Report Share Posted January 29, 2000 Patrick Hedemark wrote: > [Text 2968708 from COM] > > ... he is now somehow to be seen as particularly > qualified to "instruct" the rest of the world in the proper administration > of Varnashrama Dharma on account of his finally being properly situated in > his correct ashrama? > > ...But Varnashrama Dharma is not suddha-bhakti.... > > Ever your loving brother and servant > Praghosa Das I agree with many points in this letter. On one hand, as I have said before, I do appreciate a number of Harikesa's efforts to champion the cause of simple living and high thinking in ISKCON, especially a number of statements he made up to about 1993. On the other hand, although I am sorry for all the pain it meant both to Harikesa and to his disciples, I am thankful to Krsna that as circumstances worked out he was never allowed to establish his brand of "varnasrama" in ISKCON. Just as the sannyasa asrama in ISKCON suffered long-standing harm from the pervasive, miscogenistic, cruel and exploitive examples of Kirtananda and others -- similarly, I believe that the conception of varnasrama in ISKCON has suffered long-lasting harm from the misguided preaching of Harikesa prabhu. Based on my research of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama, I believe that he had a fundamental misunderstanding of Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama. And, unfortunately, from his respectable position of power in ISKCON, he was able to convince others of his personal vision of varnasrama and persuade them that this was Srila Prabhupada's vision -- even though there are significant differences between Harikesa's vision of varnasrama and Srila Prabhupada's. Several features of Harikesa's version of varnasrama -- which are still widely accepted in ISKCON as Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama, even though supposedly Harikesa prabhu is no longer a spiritual authority in ISKCON -- vary distinctly from Srila Prabhupada's vision. Here are a few: Harikesa touted capitalism as “the varnasrama principle” [3 May 1994] and encouraged several disciples in large-scale speculative investment schemes. However, a close reading of Srila Prabhupada's discussions on varnasrama reveal that varnasrama was supposed to be based on subsistence economics, not on market-oriented economics -- which would produce significantly different cultural values. In the *Prabhupada on Varnasrama and Farm Community Development* book, there are a number of conversations, especially those in Mauritius, which reveal Prabhupada's perspective on this topic. Prabhupada categorized speculative business investment as gambling. He explained how the growth of market-oriented capitalist production in India convinced people to channel more of their production to the market and less to support spiritual culture. (This last will be included in Vol. 3, which focuses on Prabhupada's quotes on vaisyas and sudras.) Srila Prabhupada preached "varna first, then asrama," but instead, a general understanding seems to have developed that a devotee's first step in varnasrama should be to get married. I believe that this is part of Harikesa's understanding as well. >From what I can understand -- please correct me if I am mistaken -- in terms of varna organization, Harikesa prabhu's approach was oriented chiefly to categorizing people into different varnas. The approach Srila Prabhupada presents is significantly different. He advocates that the spiritual master should designate the varna of the disciple (this part seems similar to Harikesa -- although still rejected by most devotees in ISKCON). But, it's not just a process of pasting a label on a devotee. It is more a process of guidance than forcing, and it is based on the spiritual master's personal acquaintance and understanding of the disciple, his conviction that the devotee will find spiritual happiness in serving Krsna in a certain varna. The second step is that the devotee should be expertly trained in his varna. This step seems to have been very much missing from Harikesa prabhu's model. And then the next step is that the devotee, after having been suitably trained, can engage in his occupational duty -- under the guidance of his bona fide spiritual master. The next step, optional, but to be carried out in most cases, is that the devotee then gets married. Marriage is the last step, not the first. So in these significant ways, Harikesa prabhu's vision of varnasrama was different from Srila Prabhupada's. Thus, although I hope he will be able to continue to participate in Krsna consciousness in some way, I believe that the sooner he relinquishes any claim to leadership in the matter of varnasrama, the better chance there is that varnasrama can be established in the way actually envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. Other ISKCON leaders would do ISKCON a great favor also, if they could change their perspective on the subject from Harikesa's to something more in line with Srila Prabhupada's. I realize however, that this is a lot to hope for. Even though the GBC's Farm Research committee has now put out volume 1 of *Srila Prabhupada on Varnasrama and Farm Community Development* I must admit that I would be surprised if more than half a dozen ISKCON leaders will find the time to read Prabhupada's conversations on varnasrama contained in that volume. ****************** But, to get to the main point of this note, what I really wanted to comment on was the statement : ...But Varnashrama Dharma is not suddha-bhakti.... It seems to me that making a statement like this is somewhat dangerous, because it has the general effect of leading devotees to say: "Well, then, if varnasrama is not pure devotional service, then I don't want to have anything to do with it." That is unfortunate. I could also say, "Deity worship is not suddha-bhakti." It would be unfortunate if a devotee read such a statement and decided, "Well, then, if Deity worship is not pure devotional service, then I don't want to have anything to do with it." Deity worship is not *necessarily* pure devotional service. Especially, when the Deities are demigods rather than the Supreme Lord. Even when the Deity is a Deity of the Supreme Lord, the person undertaking the service may not be engaged in pure devotional service. Their feelings may be mixed with some desire for prestige or respect, etc. Nevertheless, when done properly, and when done under the training and guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, the practice of Deity worship is meant to be a very potent way of elevating the devotee who practices it to the platform of pure devotional service. Or, even if the devotee practicing the Deity worship is already on the platform of pure devotional service, then he can still make even further spiritual advacement by serving Krsna like this. Similarly, although varnasrama dharma is not *necessarily* pure devotional service, the purpose of the varnasrama that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to establish [see, for example SB9.10.51 below] was to provide the opportunity for devotees to work on the platform of suddha bhakti by engaging in varnasrama. Varnasrama as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada would on the one hand help elevate neophytes to the platform of suddha bhakti, while on the other hand, it would provide the spiritually advanced devotees the opportunity to make even further advancement by doing their work as a direct offering to the Supreme Lord. So it is true that varnasrama dharma is not *necessarily* pure devotional service. In the Prabhuapda on Varnasrama book we hear Prabhupada in Moscow telling Professor Kotofsky that varnasrama already exists everywhere in the world. And that kind of spontaneous or haphazard varnasrama will do nothing to help elevate people to the spiritual platform -- because it is a social system which is not set up to please Krsna. But, the kind of varnasrama that Prabhupada wanted the Krsna consciousness movement to establish is a different type of varnasrama, because it is a social system which is consciously and deliberately organized for "Visnu aradhyate" to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The very purpose of that kind of varnasrama, the original or daiva varnasrama is exactly that: to elevate all participants to the level of suddha bhakti. That's really the basic purpose of Prabhupada's varnasrama. So we should not mistakenly dismiss it, confusing it with a materialistic variety of varnasrama. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi ******************************************************* Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 9: Chapter Ten, Text 51 :TRANSLATION Lord Ramacandra became King during Treta-yuga, but because of His good government, the age was like Satya-yuga. Everyone was religious and completely happy. PURPORT Among the four yugas--Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali--the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose. ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Hare Krsna Mother, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prahbhupada. I humbly request all the devotees, yourself included, to pay a little closer attention to the central point or theme of anyones contirbution. This tendency to extract a sentence or two, highlight it and focus the conversation upon that "extracted" point is really not beneficial. The point being made is that Varnashrama Dharma, described once by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, as a "measurement of our developed devotion" is a direct byproduct of the establishment of Pure Devotional Service. IT IS NOT VICE VERSA! No one, least of all yours truly, is arguing that Varnashrama Dharma is only acceptable if it is a manifestation of "suddha bhakti" or gives rise to such.My argument is precisely the opposite! If efforts made to establish Varnashrama Dharma are not guided by and influenced by practitioners of Pure Samkirtan Yajna, then Varnashrama has a "snowballs chance in hell" of ever developing! The central argument of my previous comments are that Harikesa Prabhu, Srila Prabhupadas's appointed GBC Secretary and Sannyasi and Appointed Officiating Acharya for that region of the world had a solemn duty to His Divine Grace, to take all precautions as regards safeguarding his sannyasi vows and to demonstrate pure unmotivated surrender to the orders of Srila Prabhupada, in order to maintain the pure standards of Devotional Service in his preaching field! The pure manifestation of Sri Krsna's Samkirtan, the sacrifice for the age, must first be firmly established as the ultimate goal and there must be facility for that to be exhibited specifically by the renounced brahmanas in the brahmacari and sannyasi ashramas! This is absolutely essential! Mahaprabhu's Samkirtan Yajna can be served primarily in 4 ways - with one's words - wealth - intelligence and ultimately with the complete surrender of one's life. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur instructed his son SBS as to the importance of establishing Daivi Varnashrama. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta impressed upon Srila Prabhupada the same urgency to organize in this fashion and Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON received the mandate to make all attempts to fulfill that order. Within the order is the power to fulfill it. By renouncing his prescribed duty as a sannyasi preacher and officiating acharya, he exhibited an aptitude for Mixed Devotional service and that being the case, he disqualified himself from acting as the principal initiator or leader of the development of Varnashrama Dharma. That is certainly not to say that he cannot still participate in it's development, only that his role will necessarily be different. You yourself have argued that Srila Prabhupada's idea was that the Spiritual Master would himself help to establish exactly where a devotee would fit within that Varnashrama system. My point and I think you would agree, is that the Spiritual Master, invested with such a responsible service must be a pure devotee himself or must be at least a cautious and humble representative of the Acharya, in order for his guidance to be accepted as to the particulars concerning someone's appropriate varna and/or ashrama. Now you see my point? Carefully read BG 18.57 and study Srila Prabhupada's purport. He discusses the need to abandon "whimsical" action and always and only work under the direction of Sri Krsna. Transforming our material activites into spiritually and materially productive and useful activities is only possible when our activities are conducted directly under the guidance of the general instructions of our Acharyas as they are contained within the pages of Srila Prabhupada's books and the practical guidance as to precisely how our external acitivities can SERVE in some practical way the Samkirtan Mission of our Acharya. This is a very very important point to understand. If properly understood, this one verse and purport can reward one with a very clear understanding of just what is meant by this term "Living Guru" that everyone likes to throw around so much these days! The development of Varnashrama is easily understood by reading the 12th chapter of Bhagavad Gita - especially those verses that particularly describe the various levels of devotionakl service that can be rendered to the Supreme Lord. >From the perspective of Mahaprabhu, The Samkirtan Yajna is all and all - the Direct Glorification of the Holy Name of Krsna and the merciful distribution of the Holy Name. If one cannot only do that - and most of us cannot, then there are so many ways in which we can serve those who are exclusively hearing, chanting and distributing the Holy Name! Now my point in the letter in question is that HG Harikesa prabhu, was automatically disqualified from correctly guiding the development of Varnashrama( which by the way you apparently agree with in both general and specifics) because Varnashrama can only correctly develop if it is a byproduct of the initial establishment of Pure Devotional service and the cultivation of the highly brahminical activities of direct Sri Krsna Samkirtan and the preaching of the same! Harikesa Prabhu was specificall responsible for this all important first step in the development of Varnashrama. With all his talk of Varnashrama (and his heart may have been in the right place on that) HG Harikesa prabhu misrepresented Srila Prabhupada's original instruction on initiations and presented himself as "Srila Vishnupada" with all the lofty descriptions of "The Acharya" that go along with that! That being the case he risked being a dissapointment to all the innocents who came to Krsna Consciousness on the strength of Srila Prabhupada's books, mission, and the collaborative preaching effort of Harikesa prabhu and his godbrothers and godsisters there in his area of responsibility. So right out of the box, his efforts were tainted by the third offense against the holy name - disobedience of the order of the Spiritual Master! Not an auspicious beginning for pure devotional service, which in turn is a serious impediment in the development of Varnashrama Dharma - which is a subsidiary development. As I pointed out in a different paper, looked at honestly married life limits our availability to be at the "Beck and Call" of the Spiritual Master on account of the necessary distractions that will eventually develop with our engaging in procreation. Isn't it? Now when the so-called Spiritual Master is himself distracted by the requirements of procreation - where does that leave the rest of the devotees who are struggling to find their useful and comfortable role in "The Acharya's Samkirtan Yajna? So I hope this clears things up a bit for you. Put simply as Srila Prabhupada writes in 1st canto "Spiritual Well being is FOLLOWED by material well being". Please feel free to contact me if you have any other solid input. I very much appreciate your comments. Ever your loving brother and servant Praghosa Das PS Harikesa Prabhus ideas about Varnashrama and Capitalism are based upon a jaded understanding of Capitalism which he more than likely culled from his college days in the US. One must read very carefully the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam to understand Srila Prabhupadas proper estimation of the pernicious affects of "Bogus Capitalism" based upon paper money and the "prostitution" of the state on account of this most fraudulent system. I have personally studied more than 40 books in the last 6 years and scores of papers and essays written by true adherents of Hard Money, Free Trade and Real Free Market Capitalism, as opposed to the nonsense that passes for economics today.Todays Capitalism and Global Market Interdependence is a byproduct of ignorance and is nothing more than a fraudulent system of theft! First Canto describes clearly that the personality of Kali was allowed to reside wherever Gold was hoarded and it's circulation as honest money was inhibited. So today's system of Capitalism, endorsed by arikesa( if not in words at least by his speculative investment practices) is the fertile source for nothing but WAR AND WAR AND MORE WAR! This is a very simple subject - once it is grasped and once it is adequately understood - one will easily understand practically everything that is happening both within and without the Krsna Consciousness Movement. You are spot on - on this particular point. It appeared to me when I heard about his strategies that he was very confused as far as properly understanding this subject. That was clear by his actions concerning various investment schemes, all of which necessitate an element of fraud and confiscation being attached to them. Most inauspicious. Hare Krsna! Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Cc: Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) Bowdoin (DOT) EDU> Saturday, January 29, 2000 3:12 PM Varnasrama Dharma and Suddha Bhakti >Patrick Hedemark wrote: > >> [Text 2968708 from COM] >> >> ... he is now somehow to be seen as particularly >> qualified to "instruct" the rest of the world in the proper administration >> of Varnashrama Dharma on account of his finally being properly situated in >> his correct ashrama? >> >> ...But Varnashrama Dharma is not suddha-bhakti.... >> >> Ever your loving brother and servant >> Praghosa Das > >I agree with many points in this letter. On one hand, as I have said before, I >do appreciate a number of Harikesa's efforts to champion the cause of simple >living and high thinking in ISKCON, especially a number of statements he made up >to about 1993. On the other hand, although I am sorry for all the pain it meant >both to Harikesa and to his disciples, I am thankful to Krsna that as >circumstances worked out he was never allowed to establish his brand of >"varnasrama" in ISKCON. > >Just as the sannyasa asrama in ISKCON suffered long-standing harm from the >pervasive, miscogenistic, cruel and exploitive examples of Kirtananda and others >-- similarly, I believe that the conception of varnasrama in ISKCON has suffered >long-lasting harm from the misguided preaching of Harikesa prabhu. Based on my >research of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama, I believe that he had >a fundamental misunderstanding of Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama. And, >unfortunately, from his respectable position of power in ISKCON, he was able to >convince others of his personal vision of varnasrama and persuade them that this >was Srila Prabhupada's vision -- even though there are significant differences >between Harikesa's vision of varnasrama and Srila Prabhupada's. > >Several features of Harikesa's version of varnasrama -- which are still widely >accepted in ISKCON as Prabhupada's vision of varnasrama, even though supposedly >Harikesa prabhu is no longer a spiritual authority in ISKCON -- vary distinctly >from Srila Prabhupada's vision. Here are a few: > >Harikesa touted capitalism as “the varnasrama principle” [3 May 1994] and >encouraged several disciples in large-scale speculative investment schemes. >However, a close reading of Srila Prabhupada's discussions on varnasrama reveal >that >varnasrama was supposed to be based on subsistence economics, not on >market-oriented economics -- which would produce significantly different >cultural values. In the *Prabhupada on Varnasrama and Farm Community >Development* book, there are a number of conversations, especially those in >Mauritius, which reveal Prabhupada's perspective on this topic. Prabhupada >categorized speculative business investment as gambling. He explained how the >growth of market-oriented capitalist production in India convinced people to >channel more of their production to the market and less to support spiritual >culture. (This last will be included in Vol. 3, which focuses on Prabhupada's >quotes on vaisyas and sudras.) > >Srila Prabhupada preached "varna first, then asrama," but instead, a general >understanding seems to have developed that a devotee's first step in varnasrama >should be to get married. I believe that this is part of Harikesa's >understanding as well. > >From what I can understand -- please correct me if I am mistaken -- in terms of >varna organization, Harikesa prabhu's approach was oriented chiefly to >categorizing people into different varnas. The approach Srila Prabhupada >presents is significantly different. He advocates that the spiritual master >should designate the varna of the disciple (this part seems similar to Harikesa >-- although still rejected by most devotees in ISKCON). But, it's not just a >process of pasting a label on a devotee. It is more a process of guidance than >forcing, and it is based on the spiritual master's personal acquaintance and >understanding of the disciple, his conviction that the devotee will find >spiritual happiness in serving Krsna in a certain varna. The second step is that >the devotee should be expertly trained in his varna. This step seems to have >been very much missing from Harikesa prabhu's model. And then the next step is >that the devotee, after having been suitably trained, can engage in his >occupational duty -- under the guidance of his bona fide spiritual master. The >next step, optional, but to be carried out in most cases, is that the devotee >then gets married. Marriage is the last step, not the first. > >So in these significant ways, Harikesa prabhu's vision of varnasrama was >different from Srila Prabhupada's. Thus, although I hope he will be able to >continue to participate in Krsna consciousness in some way, I believe that the >sooner he relinquishes any claim to leadership in the matter of varnasrama, the >better chance there is that varnasrama can be established in the way actually >envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. Other ISKCON leaders would do ISKCON a great >favor also, if they could change their perspective on the subject from >Harikesa's to something more in line with Srila Prabhupada's. > >I realize however, that this is a lot to hope for. Even though the GBC's Farm >Research committee has now put out volume 1 of *Srila Prabhupada on Varnasrama >and Farm Community Development* I must admit that I would be surprised if more >than half a dozen ISKCON leaders will find the time to read Prabhupada's >conversations on varnasrama contained in that volume. > >****************** > >But, to get to the main point of this note, what I really wanted to comment on >was the statement : ...But Varnashrama Dharma is not suddha-bhakti.... > >It seems to me that making a statement like this is somewhat dangerous, because >it has the general effect of leading devotees to say: "Well, then, if >varnasrama is not pure devotional service, then I don't want to have anything to >do with it." That is unfortunate. > >I could also say, "Deity worship is not suddha-bhakti." It would be unfortunate >if a devotee read such a statement and decided, "Well, then, if Deity worship is >not pure devotional service, then I don't want to have anything to do with it." > >Deity worship is not *necessarily* pure devotional service. Especially, when >the Deities are demigods rather than the Supreme Lord. Even when the Deity is a >Deity of the Supreme Lord, the person undertaking the service may not be engaged >in pure devotional service. Their feelings may be mixed with some desire for >prestige or respect, etc. > >Nevertheless, when done properly, and when done under the training and guidance >of a bona fide spiritual master, the practice of Deity worship is meant to be a >very potent way of elevating the devotee who practices it to the platform of >pure devotional service. Or, even if the devotee practicing the Deity worship >is already on the platform of pure devotional service, then he can still make >even further spiritual advacement by serving Krsna like this. > >Similarly, although varnasrama dharma is not *necessarily* pure devotional >service, the purpose of the varnasrama that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to >establish [see, for example SB9.10.51 below] was to provide the opportunity for >devotees to work on the platform of suddha bhakti by engaging in varnasrama. >Varnasrama as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada would on the one hand help elevate >neophytes to the platform of suddha bhakti, while on the other hand, it would >provide the spiritually advanced devotees the opportunity to make even further >advancement by doing their work as a direct offering to the Supreme Lord. > >So it is true that varnasrama dharma is not *necessarily* pure devotional >service. In the Prabhuapda on Varnasrama book we hear Prabhupada in Moscow >telling Professor Kotofsky that varnasrama already exists everywhere in the >world. And that kind of spontaneous or haphazard varnasrama will do nothing to >help elevate people to the spiritual platform -- because it is a social system >which is not set up to please Krsna. > >But, the kind of varnasrama that Prabhupada wanted the Krsna consciousness >movement to establish is a different type of varnasrama, because it is a social >system which is consciously and deliberately organized for "Visnu aradhyate" to >please the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The very purpose of that kind of >varnasrama, the original or daiva varnasrama is exactly that: to elevate all >participants to the level of suddha bhakti. That's really the basic purpose of >Prabhupada's varnasrama. So we should not mistakenly dismiss it, confusing it >with a materialistic variety of varnasrama. > >your servant, > >Hare Krsna dasi > >******************************************************* >Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 9: Chapter Ten, Text 51 :TRANSLATION > > Lord Ramacandra became King during Treta-yuga, but because of His good >government, the age was like Satya-yuga. Everyone was religious and completely >happy. > > PURPORT > > Among the four yugas--Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali--the Kali-yuga is the >worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age >of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or >Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose. > >******************************************************* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 > in the right place on that) HG Harikesa prabhu misrepresented Srila > Prabhupada's original instruction on initiations and presented himself as > "Srila Vishnupada" with all the lofty descriptions of "The Acharya" that > go along with that! You really have an axe to grind as it seems, what about all the other spiritual masters who,s disciples adreesed them with such titles. Was this not coming in the tradition from Bhaktivedanta Swami who accepted the title Prabhupada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 > Isn't it? Now when the so-called Spiritual Master is himself distracted by > the requirements of procreation - where does that leave the rest of the > devotees who are struggling to find their useful and comfortable role in > "The Acharya's Samkirtan Yajna? So would you say that a spiritual master cannot be maryd? How about the statement from scriptures that the wife of the spiritual master is one of the many mothers of the disciple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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