Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 > only that his role will necessarily be different. You yourself have argued > that Srila Prabhupada's idea was that the Spiritual Master would himself > help to establish exactly where a devotee would fit within that > Varnashrama system. My point and I think you would agree, is that the > Spiritual Master, invested with such a responsible service must be a pure > devotee himself or must be at least a cautious and humble representative > of the Acharya, in order for his guidance to be accepted as to the > particulars concerning someone's appropriate varna and/or ashrama. Now you > see my point? Carefully read BG 18.57 and study Srila Prabhupada's > purport. He discusses the need to abandon "whimsical" action and always > and only work under the direction of Sri Krsna. You seem to have the understanding of varnasrama as a kind of guru dictatorship who are ordering his disciples what to do and how to engage himself in the varnasrama social institution. I dont think that was the position of the spiritual masters in vedic times. They were as I understood it spiritual and material guides for the members of the society. It was the duty of the ksatriyas to see that everyone is performing his dutys acording to the traditional dutys for each varna and ashrama. As long the brahmacari was in the guru,s ashram he was of course performing his dutys acording to the direct advise of the guru, but as soon he completed his education there he entered the greater society organized acording to varnasrama and was performing his dutys there acording to the requirements accepted by tradition based on scriptural instructions teached and directed by the brahmanas. But the brahmanas had no executive power in the sence as you discribe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 > >So would you say that a spiritual master cannot be maryd? >How about the statement from scriptures that the wife of the spiritual >master is one of the many mothers of the disciple? And how about our ISKCON grhasta gurus, like Ravindra Svarup Prabhu? I don't think anyone could really accuse him of being "distracted by the requirements of procreation". Besides. from what we've seen in ISKCON, it seems like no one asrama has a monopoly on being distracted by thoughts about sex. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > > By renouncing his prescribed duty as a sannyasi preacher and officiating > acharya, he exhibited an aptitude for Mixed Devotional service and that > being the case, he disqualified himself from acting as the principal > initiator or leader of the development of Varnashrama Dharma. Praghosh prabhu, what are you trying to say here? Is it that you think that one can't performe pure devotional service in grhastha ashrama? Besides that, can't you please let Harikesa in peace? He isn't preaching Varnashrama dharma. He is not even speaking about it. He hardly uses ISKCON terminology either. He isn't interested to introduce anything in ISKCON. He is rather keeping quite some distance from it. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > The approach Srila > Prabhupada presents is significantly different. He advocates that the > spiritual master should designate the varna of the disciple. But, it's >not just a process of pasting a label on a devotee. Do you have kind of material that suports that idea that the diksa guru is the varna guru? I mean that the diksa guru is that guru who should decide which varna a disciple belongs to. I would rather think that diksa and siksa gurus are there to give the spiritual knowledge and varna guru would be there to help a candidate to figure out his varna. With varna guru I would mean a brahmana who has a lot of knowledge end experience about varnashrama-dharma. And once a candidate knows his varna, he would get training from a proper guide (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra) depending on which varna he belongs to. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > The pure manifestation of Sri Krsna's > Samkirtan, the sacrifice for the age, must first be firmly established as > the ultimate goal and there must be facility for that to be exhibited > specifically by the renounced brahmanas in the brahmacari and sannyasi > ashramas! This is absolutely essential! You certainly cannot be saying that Sri Krsna's sankirtana is the sole province of the "renounced brahmanas in the brahmacari and sannyasi ashramas", are you? It can only be exhibited by them? The meaning of sankirtana as Prabhupada defines it is: "Sankirtana is a sanskrit word. "Sam" means "samyak"- complete. And kirtana means "glorifying" or describing. ...kirtana means describing the supreme authority, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is called "kirtana", SSR pg 139. I believe EVERY varna and asarama has equal facility to describe the glories of the Lord. And helping is also equal. Many devotees of ISKCON were under serious delusion thinking that the "preachers" of the movement, which meant the book distributors or the so-called "sankirtana" devotees were somehow superior to the other devotees working back in the temple or elsewhere in 'menial" services until Srila Prabhpada SMASHED that ridiculous concoction forever. "Madhuvisa Swami: Srila Prabhupada, Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "Those who repeat this message of Bhagavad Gita, those persons are most dear to Me. There is no one more dear to Me than he." Now wouldn't that indicate that a preacher is higher than a worker? Srila Prabhupada: No! This is preaching to help. Suppose you are preaching and I am helping you. This is also preaching." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > > > Do you really think that someone still accepts to be ordered by the > spiritual master when and whom one should marry? > > This practice in ISKCON was a disaster for all those involved in this > aranged marriages. 99% of them failed as I could see it. Well, I won't argue that the practice was a disaster, but I am a 1%er just finishing the 25th year of marriage. Incidentally, my daughter is the first girl to graduate from college out of an arranged marriage from NV. I am wondering if I can make that claim ISKCON wide? Any other girl college graduates out of an arranged marriage out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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