Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > From what I could read this "categorizing people into different varnas" > was promoted here by Janesvara Prabhu. So what do you say Janesvara Prabhu > is your approach "significantly different" from the approach of Srila > Prabhupada? I am not sure what we are speaking of here. But I am pretty sure Mother Hare Krsna feels that "my brand" of varnasrama also is "significantly different" from the approach of Srila Prabhupada. If "categorizing people into different varnas" means dividing people according to varnas I would say I have to agree that this is my understanding of what Prabhupada said to do. "Unless there is such a division of the social orders in human society... then there is always confusion as to who is to work for what purpose." SB 3.29.31 "The Vedas describe how to divide the human race into four divisions according to quality and working capacity. This is very scientific system, and it is also sanatana, for no one can trace out its history, and it has no dissolution. No one can stop the system of varna and asrama, or the castes and divisions." SB 4.2.31 "The Vedic system of varna and asrama is never to be neglected because the divisions are created by the Supreme Lord Himself for the upkeep of social and religious order in human society." SB 4.6.44 "The four social orders, the brahmanas, etc., - are natural divisions of human society, and, as declared by Prithu Maharaja, every man in his respective social order must have proper employment for his livelihood. It is the duty of the king or the government to insure that the people observe the social order and that they are also employed in their respective occupational duties." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.21.22 "Here it is stated (sva-dharma-nishtah) that when a living entity comes to a civilized form of life, there must be sva-dharma, social divisions according to one's work and qualifications. ...In civilized human society there are the divisions of brahmanas, etc., and everyone must properly execute his occupational duty in accordance to his division. ...it doesn't matter whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra. If one sticks to his position and properly executes his particular duty, he is considered a civilized human being. Otherwise, he is no better than an animal." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.29 "According to Viraraghava Acarya, such protection means organizing the citizens into the specific divisions of the four varnas and four asramas. It was the responsibility of the royal order to see that the citizens were following the regulative principles of the four varnas (namely the brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras) and the asramas (brahmacarya, etc.). it is very difficult to rule the citizens in a kingdom without organizing this varnasrama-dharma." SB 4.29.81. "Lord Brahma said, "My dear boy, all of us are bound by the Vedic injunctions to the divisions of varnasrama according to our qualities and work. These divisions are difficult to avoid because they are scientifically arranged. We must therefore carry out our duties of varnasrama-dharma, like bulls obliged to move according to the direction of a driver pulling ropes knotted to their noses."" "Thus they say that the four divisions of the social order - brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra - should be arranged according to the guna and karma of this life. This version is confirmed in SB by Narada Muni. While instructing Maharaja Yudhishtira about the symptoms of guna and karma, Narada Muni said that these symptoms must govern the divisions of society. In other words, if a person born in the family of a brahmana has the symptoms of a sudra, he should be designated as a sudra. Similarly, if a sudra has brahminical qualities, he should be designated a brahmana." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 "COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2973535 from COM] > > > > > > > Do you really think that someone still accepts to be ordered by the > > spiritual master when and whom one should marry? > > > > This practice in ISKCON was a disaster for all those involved in this > > aranged marriages. 99% of them failed as I could see it. > > Well, I won't argue that the practice was a disaster, but I am a 1%er just > finishing the 25th year of marriage. > > Incidentally, my daughter is the first girl to graduate from college out of an > arranged marriage from NV. I am wondering if I can make that claim ISKCON > wide? Any other girl college graduates out of an arranged marriage out there? Clarification. When I say that ideally marriage should *follow* occupational training, I'm not trying to say that the spiritual master should arrange the marriage (I can't remember Srila Prabhupada ever saying that) or even that it has to be an arranged marriage (that is not the point of the discussion here). I'm simply trying to counter the popular understanding of varnasrama. "Hey, I got married. I guess I should do varnasrama now." As Srila Prabhupada indicated in March 1974, the ideal is: varna first, then asrama. By the way Gosh prabhu -- congratulations to your daughter! your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Categoring is fine -- as long as it includes a very sensitive assessment by the spiritual master of the devotee's actual nature -- and as long as it begins with training. Simply categorizing without a sensitive exchange between spritual master and disciple and without proper training is what causes problems. In particular, I did not see the emphasis on appropriate training in Harikesa's model. Again, I want to stress that I don't believe that it productive to view Harikesa's contributions as totally correct or totally mistaken. I see some things of value in his approach, particularly his early emphasis on self-sufficiency, but also there appears to be some lack of understanding, especially with regards to encouraging others to pursue in capitalist activities in the name of varnasrama. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi "COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2973602 from COM] > > > From what I could read this "categorizing people into different varnas" > > was promoted here by Janesvara Prabhu. So what do you say Janesvara Prabhu > > is your approach "significantly different" from the approach of Srila > > Prabhupada? > > I am not sure what we are speaking of here. But I am pretty sure Mother Hare > Krsna feels that "my brand" of varnasrama also is "significantly different" > from the approach of Srila Prabhupada. > > If "categorizing people into different varnas" means dividing people > according to varnas I would say I have to agree that this is my > understanding of what Prabhupada said to do. > > "Unless there is such a division of the social orders in human society... > then there is always confusion as to who is to work for what purpose." SB > 3.29.31 > > "The Vedas describe how to divide the human race into four divisions > according to quality and working capacity. This is very scientific system, > and it is also sanatana, for no one can trace out its history, and it has no > dissolution. No one can stop the system of varna and asrama, or the castes > and divisions." SB 4.2.31 > > "The Vedic system of varna and asrama is never to be neglected because the > divisions are created by the Supreme Lord Himself for the upkeep of social > and religious order in human society." SB 4.6.44 > > "The four social orders, the brahmanas, etc., - are natural divisions of > human society, and, as declared by Prithu Maharaja, every man in his > respective social order must have proper employment for his livelihood. It > is the duty of the king or the government to insure that the people observe > the social order and that they are also employed in their respective > occupational duties." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.21.22 > > "Here it is stated (sva-dharma-nishtah) that when a living entity comes to a > civilized form of life, there must be sva-dharma, social divisions according > to one's work and qualifications. ...In civilized human society there are > the divisions of brahmanas, etc., and everyone must properly execute his > occupational duty in accordance to his division. ...it doesn't matter > whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra. If one sticks to his > position and properly executes his particular duty, he is considered a > civilized human being. Otherwise, he is no better than an animal." Srimad > Bhagavatam 4.24.29 > > "According to Viraraghava Acarya, such protection means organizing the > citizens into the specific divisions of the four varnas and four asramas. It > was the responsibility of the royal order to see that the citizens were > following the regulative principles of the four varnas (namely the > brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras) and the asramas (brahmacarya, > etc.). it is very difficult to rule the citizens in a kingdom without > organizing this varnasrama-dharma." SB 4.29.81. > > "Lord Brahma said, "My dear boy, all of us are bound by the Vedic > injunctions to the divisions of varnasrama according to our qualities and > work. These divisions are difficult to avoid because they are scientifically > arranged. We must therefore carry out our duties of varnasrama-dharma, like > bulls obliged to move according to the direction of a driver pulling ropes > knotted to their noses."" > > "Thus they say that the four divisions of the social order - brahmana, > ksatriya, vaisya and sudra - should be arranged according to the guna and > karma of this life. This version is confirmed in SB by Narada Muni. While > instructing Maharaja Yudhishtira about the symptoms of guna and karma, > Narada Muni said that these symptoms must govern the divisions of society. > In other words, if a person born in the family of a brahmana has the > symptoms of a sudra, he should be designated as a sudra. Similarly, if a > sudra has brahminical qualities, he should be designated a brahmana." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 "COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote: > [Text 2973241 from COM] > > > The approach Srila > > Prabhupada presents is significantly different. He advocates that the > > spiritual master should designate the varna of the disciple. But, it's > >not just a process of pasting a label on a devotee. > > Do you have kind of material that suports that idea that the diksa guru is > the varna guru? I mean that the diksa guru is that guru who should decide > which varna a disciple belongs to. I would rather think that diksa and siksa > gurus are there to give the spiritual knowledge and varna guru would be > there to help a candidate to figure out his varna. With varna guru I would > mean a brahmana who has a lot of knowledge end experience about > varnashrama-dharma. And once a candidate knows his varna, he would get > training from a proper guide (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra) depending > on which varna he belongs to. > > Ys. Sraddha dd There is only one quote which even comes close to implying that the diksa guru should be the one who gives varna guidance. I don't have the quote right now, but it's in a conversation with a guest. The guest says what if he chooses his varna based on his intuition. Prabhupada says, then you will be wrongly guided; a thief's intuition is that he should steal. Intuition is not enough. Then the guest says, must I take initiation. Prabhupada says, Yes initiation must be there. But even in this passage Srila Prabhupada does not specifically say that it is the initiating spiritual master that should designate the varna. In most passages, Srila Prabhupada says simply "guru" or "spiritual master." Therefore it seems that it could be either the diksa guru or it could be a person who the devotee seriously accepts as his siksa guru. As far as I know, Prabhupada never makes a direct statement that the spiritual master who gives the varna guidance must be a diksa guru. I'm not sure where this term "varna guru" comes from. Srila Prabhupada never uses it when talking about varnasrama, he simply says "guru" or "spiritual master." If we talk about "varna guru" I thinking we are making up some new category. Just "spiritual master" -- but it doesn't matter whether the spiritual master is diksa guru or siksa guru -- as long as he really is the devotee's spiritual master. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > Again, I want to stress that I don't believe that it productive to view > Harikesa's contributions as totally correct or totally mistaken. I see > some things of value in his approach, particularly his early emphasis on > self-sufficiency, but also there appears to be some lack of understanding, > especially with regards to encouraging others to pursue in capitalist > activities in the name of varnasrama. Just for the sake of further discussions of the best varnasrama social model, here some quotes from Harikesha which I find are quite relevant to our discussion. "As I can see it, in ISKCON nowadays, there are mainly temples and a fiew farms or small village comunities. Many neophyte devotees are in ignorance, so the leader with ksatriya qualities may not inspire them as much as a leader with brahmanical qualities could through preaching and educational programs. But to have a brahmana manage a temple is acceptable only as long as the temple remains small and focused mainly on devotional service. When the community expands into a township with large congregation, a qualified ksatriya is required. In village communities, having a leader who embodies the principles of a rajarsi, or a saintly king is far superior. We have seen that. Thus as time progresses and ISKCON grows, the relevance of the Vedic system will become obvious. When we accept a temporary political solution, it may turn into something permanent. One instance of that is communism. Marx said that you start with capitalistic facilities, and when the society is sufficiantly advanced and ideologically purified, the socialistic facilities turn into communism. As we have seen, however, the communists never advanced past socialism; and to make their society work, they were moving back to capitalism. Their interim solution turned into their permanent one. One must be aware of that danger. The brahmana model is an interim solution. When a project becomes a larger expansive organization, a village or a city, Bhismadeva,s model (vedic sociopolitical structure) is most applicable." "The system of varnasrama dharma and its social implications is so vast that it will require an enormous amount of writing so that people will understand how to proceed. It will also require a department of social science." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > If we talk about "varna guru" I thinking we are making up some new > category. > > Just "spiritual master" -- but it doesn't matter whether the spiritual > master is diksa guru or siksa guru -- as long as he really is the > devotee's spiritual master. Was Dronacarya not the varna guru (teacher of ksatriya knowledge) of the Pandavas, I dont think he was teaching them also spiritual knowlege? That was done by other brahmanas in the society. So there is definitally as I can see it a diference between the guru who teaches one "varna knowledge" and transcendental knowlege about the soul and Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 > self-sufficiency, but also there appears to be some lack of understanding, > > especially with regards to encouraging others to pursue in capitalist > > activities in the name of varnasrama. I just try to understand you properly Mother Hare Krishna. Are you trying to say that capitalistic activities are not also part of the varnasrama social model? I would doubt that all vaysiyas would be satisfied just by doing agriculture on the basis of self-sufficiancy nor do I think that there was no buisness or banking buisness going on in vedic times. I prefer to think that Prabhupada aplyid and thought vedic principles into the present society and was not teaching some dogmas of self-sufficiancy as the solution for all our economic and social problems. I think everything has its right place and aplication, but if one whants to establish a working social model for our society one cannot and should not deny reality, otherwise our endeaver to establish something on the large scale remains just a utopy. The islind which never existed, nor ever will exist, on the larg scale of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 "COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote: > [Text 2975969 from COM] > > > If we talk about "varna guru" I thinking we are making up some new > > category. > > > > Just "spiritual master" -- but it doesn't matter whether the spiritual > > master is diksa guru or siksa guru -- as long as he really is the > > devotee's spiritual master. > > Was Dronacarya not the varna guru (teacher of ksatriya knowledge) of the > Pandavas, I dont think he was teaching them also spiritual knowlege? That > was done by other brahmanas in the society. > > So there is definitally as I can see it a diference between the guru who > teaches one "varna knowledge" and transcendental knowlege about the soul and > Krsna. Now I see what you are talking about. I think in some cases we can be mislead by looking directly at the ancient Vedic ideas. Often they are relevant, but not always. I think Srila Prabhupada's idea is slightly adapted for our age. >From what I can understand of Srila Prabhupada, it is actually the spiritual master who should *guide the devotee* to the appropriate varna. One reason that this is important is that the devotee will count on him to reveal the spiritual relevance of his work, and how by doing that work he can advance in Krsna consciousness. The idea is by working in his varna, he can advance to spiritual perfection (Bg 18.45-46) or Suddha Bhakti, as we are discussing here. So it is important that the spiritual master will take the time to make that link clear to his disciple -- otherwise there is not much chance that he can advance beyond karma yoga in his occupational duty. ********************** Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-one, Text 33 :PURPORT The question may be raised that since the Lord is supposed to be worshiped by great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and others, how can an ordinary human being on this planet serve Him? This is clearly explained by Prthu Maharaja by the use of the word yatha-dhikara, "according to one's ability." If one sincerely executes his occupational duty, that will be sufficient. One does not need to become like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra, Lord Caitanya or Ramanujacarya, whose capabilities are certainly far above ours. Even a sudra, who is in the lowest stage of life according to the material qualities, can achieve the same success. Anyone can become successful in devotional service provided he displays no duplicity. It is explained here that one must be very frank and open-minded (amayinah). To be situated in a lower status of life is not a disqualification for success in devotional service. The only qualification is that whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, he must be open, frank and free from reservations. Then, by performing his particular occupational duty under the guidance of a proper spiritual master, he can achieve the highest success in life. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter Nineteen, Text 19 :TRANSLATION TRANSLATION If one's position is ascertained by a bona fide spiritual master and one is properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu according to the four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four spiritual divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa], one's life becomes perfect. ************************* So above are some of the quotes which indicate that the spiritual master gives the devotee guidance to the proper asrama. However, as you indicate, even though the bona fide spiritual master (who can explain clearly the spiritual relevance of the occupational duty) is the one who guides the devotee to the proper varna -- he may guide the devotee to some, possibly less spiritually qualified teacher to actually train him in his occupation. I think this is direction you are trying to point to. So Prabhupada has given a hint that the person who gives the actual occupational training may not necessarily be so spiritually advanced. Unfortunately, I cannot find the example right now, but Srila Prabhupada also gives the example that someone who is fit for learning music should be trained by a musician, and so on. Not that the actual training is necessarily done by the spiritual master -- but the devotee is engaged in his occupational duty under the guidance of his spiritual master. The closest real life example I can think of is when Prabhupada guided one of his disciples to become a doll-maker for Mayapur, I believe. Prabhupada gave the devotee his occupation and revealed the spiritual significance of that work for him. But Prabhupada did not train that devotee how to make the dolls. He sent him to some skilled craftsmen, who were probably not as spiritually advanced as Prabhupada. Nevertheless, the devotee engaged in the training and in the work, under the guidance of his spiritual master. So there are two factors that are needed: 1) spiritual guidance to the proper occupational duty, and 1) practical training in that duty. For the sake of clarity, it might be better if we just called the person who gives the practical training, but who does not necessarily have any spiritual advancement simply a varna teacher rather than a varna guru. But, I agree with your point, the varna teacher does not necessarily have to be spiritually advanced. As long as the training is taking place under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, then that guru can correct any spiritual misunderstandings that may arise. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 > > > By the way Gosh prabhu -- congratulations to your daughter! > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 Hare Krsna Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! In the portion of my letter which you have extracted, you have the following quote "If one cannot ONLY do that - and most of us cannot, then there are SO MANY WAYS in which we can serve those who are exclusively hearing and chanting and distributing the Holy Name.!" You then pretend that I have indicated otherwise and proceed to introduce numerous quotes to support your postion, which you attempt to establish as different from my own. But we are in NO WAY in disagreement. "SO MANY WAYS" cannot means anything else but "SO MANY WAYS"! To imply that I am introducing something else is not honest. I will add however that I enjoyed all the quotes you have included as they are certainly nectarean and serve to support my point. There are SO MANY WAYS in which we can render service to the Samkirtan Yajna. It is dynamic never static. I once returned from book distribution in the evening when Srila Prabhupada was visiting Washington DC. I related to His Divine Grace an incident that had occurred that day. A young gentleman from the US Military had purchased 4 volumes of Srila Prabhupada's books with great enthusiasm! He told me that he and some 8 of his friends would meet one night a week and study Srila Prabhupada's Gita together! He then asked me if it were possible to remain in the military and still "be a devotee?" After relating this to Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace stood there with his eyes wide with interest and he asked me, "So how did you answer him?" I said, "Well Srila Prabhupada, I told him that he most certainly could! I showed him the picture of Arjuna on the cover of Bhagavad Gita and explained that Arjuna was the most important military figure of his time, and that Lord Krsna had specifically spoken Bhagavada Gita to urge Arjuna to perform his duty and fight for the proper cause. So Yes indeed he could he could remain in the military and be a devotee!" Srila Prabhupada smiled......appeared a little thoughtful for a second.....and then said, "You have answered rightly.....Yes Arjuna was a military man!" Also if you carefully read BG 18.57 you will get great enlightenment and encouragement from the verse and Srila Prabhupada's very beautiful purport. If understood nicely this one verse alone will clear up so many confusions that one may have on practically any topic. Srila Prabhupada emphasizes action guided by Lord Krsna and in the absence of Lord Krsna - then the guidance of sastra and the bone fide Spiritual Master. He then points out the futility of "Whimsical" action - which cannot be devotional service. Surrendering to an individual who is just as "conditioned" as we are does not absolve us from the reactions incurred by whimsical action. In fact the very act of surrendering to a conditioned soul, even if it is an attempt at surrendering to Lord Krsna, is itself a WHIMSICAL act, and will not yield the desired result! Most normal parents, for example, who themselves may have attempted to surrender heart and soul to one of Srila Prabhupada's senior men, are now enormously opposed, or should I say ADAMANTLY opposed to turning their children over to these individuals with the understanding that their guidance will be absolutely perfect and correct 100% of the time. Most parents will naturally act as a careful and cautious filter - for the safety and interest of the child! Krsna Consciousness as it was introduced by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is a collaborative effort that involves all the devotees working hormoniously in the interest of Lord Krsna with everyone exhibiting great caution and concern in our efforts to become, and help others to become, nicely situated in SOME WAY in the service of Guru and Gauranga! Thus when he left us he gave us the perfect frmula for sustaining that mood of collaboration. Governing Body Comission - Local Temple Presidents - Senior Sannyasis - Officiating Achayas! Bas! Perfect formula for HARMONIOUS COLLABORATIVE engagement of devotional service and it's natural by-product - Daivi Varnashrama! This beautiful arrangement, if followed carefully will serve to facilitate the realization of everything Srila Prabhupada envisioned for his sacred mission - The International Society for Krsna Consciousness. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! I hope this clears up any misunderstanding there may have been as a result of my statements. Ever your loving brother and servant. Praghosa Das COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:44 PM Re: Varnasrama Dharma and Suddha Bhakti >[Text 2973265 from COM] > >> From the perspective of Mahaprabhu, The Samkirtan Yajna is all and all - >> the Direct Glorification of the Holy Name of Krsna and the merciful >> distribution of the Holy Name. If one cannot only do that - and most of us >> cannot, then there are so many ways in which we can serve those who are >> exclusively hearing, chanting and distributing the Holy Name! > > >It is not that everyone SHOULD be exclusively preaching directly by hearing >and chanting and distributing, and that if they are not they are somehow >inferior to those who are. There are different prescribed duties for >everyone and if performed for the satisfaction of Krsna they will give the >same perfection. > > >"Srila Prabhupada: Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or >vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why >artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi >and fall down and become a ludicrous?" > >Arjuna wanted to leave the battlefield and go do all of these "direct" >preaching things and Krsna told him he was a nonsense. He had a duty to >perform and he had to do it. > >"Srila Prabhupada: If one can sell books nicely, why should he be engaged in >temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there is no >difference between selling the books and temple worship or washing the dish. >There is no difference because it is all transcendental." > >"Srila Prabhupada: Some of you are preaching and some of you are cleansing >the temple. That does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is >better than that man who is cleansing. The position of Vaisnava is the >same. But for management one is cleansing, one is seeing to the >construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It >is not that because I have taken sannyasa therefore I cannot any longer do >anything. If need be, he has to act as ksatriya or sudra. It doesn't >matter. But for management, this division must be there, otherwise it will >be mismanagement." > > > >Also, just because Lord Caitanya rejected everything material (like >varnasrama) on His ultimate high standards does not mean we are trying to >imitate the same thing within ISKCON. > >"Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up (VAD) He >said it was not possible in this age to introduce this. >Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He sai it was not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya >Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of >material side. He rejected material side. >Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also? >Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna >consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took >sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going >to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... >That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the >whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected >meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He >was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that >we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will >come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya >Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this >material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must >pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the >spiritual plane... thus we must introduce the varnasrama dharma." > > >The order of our spiritual master is the highest service. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 Hare Krsna Mother Sraddha, Please accept my humble obeisnaces. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! Good Mother please always read carefully what I am saying. Perhaps English not being your first language there is some problem in the translation. If that is the case then I will take note of that and try to explain myself very carefully. But also carefully consider your own mind when you ask me such questions. Perhaps you are simply searching out some opportunity to "wrangle" with me. (In this case "wrangle" means to unnecessarily quarrel) I have been an aspiring devotee since 1972. I have read all of Srila Prabhupada's books countless times in those 28 years. I myself have been a grhasta for 18 years and have four sons whom I am grooming to eventually marry and shelter one of Srila Prabhupada's angels also! Do you really think that I do not see the possibility of engaging in devotional service from the grhasta ashrama? I do not know when you began practicing Krsna Consciousness but I am certain you are aware that just prior to his departure, Srila Prabhupada appointed both HG Jayatirtha Prabhu and HG Bhagavan prabhu as "Officiating Acharyas" with specific orders to initiate newcomers in their respective areas of responsibility for Srila Prabhupada and his mission. So there is no question that one can successfully practice Krsna Consciousness from either the married or unmarried status and become fully pleasing to Guru and Gaurananga! If my comments are not being coorectly understood then I will assume that I am perhaps not making myself clear and will in the future make all effort to ensure that I am not hastily writing without making myself completely understandable. Will that be all right? Ever your loving brother and servant Praghosa Das PS I am not picking on my godbrother HG Harikesa prabhu at all. First off he is a 'Big Boy" now and is I am certain in no way negatively affected by my comments. He is a preacher and I am certain quite happy with open and honest and direct communication. I have said nothing that could be construed as offensive and I amcertain that he would agree. No one could have achieved the success in preaching that my good godbrother Harikesa prabhu has by being some effeminate wimp who requires foolish flattery and dishonest and duplicitous words in order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness. I have said nothing in these exchanges that I would not say directly to him and indeed if ever given the opportunity face to face and he inclined I would say far more! My comments were a result of the "unnecessary" confrontation between some of the prabhus there who took issue with my original mention of Harikesa and the silliness on the VAST conferences on COM! That is all. So if you can all drop the subject of Harikesa that would be most welcome. I have no further interest in discussing him with any of you either. COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) <Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:23 PM Re: Varnasrama Dharma and Suddha Bhakti >[Text 2973240 from COM] > >> >> By renouncing his prescribed duty as a sannyasi preacher and officiating >> acharya, he exhibited an aptitude for Mixed Devotional service and that >> being the case, he disqualified himself from acting as the principal >> initiator or leader of the development of Varnashrama Dharma. > > Praghosh prabhu, what are you trying to say here? Is it that you think >that one can't performe pure devotional service in grhastha ashrama? > > > Besides that, can't you please let Harikesa in peace? He isn't preaching >Varnashrama dharma. He is not even speaking about it. He hardly uses ISKCON >terminology either. He isn't interested to introduce anything in ISKCON. He >is rather keeping quite some distance from it. > > Ys. Sraddha dd > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 "COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote: > [Text 2971821 from COM] > > > process of pasting a label on a devotee. It is more a process of guidance > > than forcing, and it is based on the spiritual master's personal > > acquaintance and understanding of the disciple, his conviction that the > > devotee will find spiritual happiness in serving Krsna in a certain varna. > > If it is moore a process of guidance than forcing, than I guess it can > depend also on the disciple if one accepts or not such varna guidance, > without making any ofence due to not following the "order" of the spiritual > master. Isn.t it so? Sounds reasonable to me. ys hkdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 > Hare Krsna Prabhu, > Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila > Prabhupada! > In the portion of my letter which you have extracted, you have the > following quote "If one cannot ONLY do that - and most of us cannot, then > there are SO MANY WAYS in which we can serve those who are exclusively > hearing and chanting and distributing the Holy Name.!" You then pretend > that I have indicated otherwise and proceed to introduce numerous quotes > to support your postion, which you attempt to establish as different from > my own. But we are in NO WAY in disagreement. "SO MANY WAYS" cannot means > anything else but "SO MANY WAYS"! Hare Krsna Praghosa Prabhu. Namaste. Jaya Prabhupada! You seem to take some offense to people "extracting" portions of your comments. Please do not take offense. None is intended. It is the generally accepted method of discussions on COM in order to save time and excessively long texts. I assume you are probably not new to COM. There are certain portions of your texts or anyone's comments which someone may wish to comment upon without pasting the entire text. It is not meant as a slight or criticism of the other portions of your comments which may be very nice. Perhaps you will not be so sensitive to this in the future if you understand what I am saying. While I was not "pretending" to imply that you were saying there are not many other ways of serving Krsna, I will admit to some suspicion that there might have been some condescension in your tone. I am glad you have expressed otherwise. You must admit that there has been many cases of a certain class of devotees in the temples who have claimed superiority because of a contrived mentality that their particular service is better than others service in the temple or out of the temple. Many sannyasis and book distributors have been stricken with this disease at the expense and disappointment of many other good hearted bhaktas who may have had a different nature and were discouraged to perform their natural duties to the Lord through false peer pressure and even mental and physical abuse by such diseased "superiors". I am glad you are not one of those types of devotees. My quotes were meant to serve as an inspiration to those devotees like myself who want to serve Krsna while engaged according to our guna and karma as prescribed by our guru maharaja. Many in ISKCON have not admitted their pretentious acceptance of positions for which they are not suited according to the varnasrama institution and pretend that they are transcendental to such principles and yet continue to exhibit serious shortcomings and flaws in their pretentious attempts. I would guess that this could be the reason why ISKCON's "leaders" have failed to implement varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the movement as Prabhupada ordered over 25 years ago. Perhaps your long experience and service in Prabhupada's movement could inspire the leaders to take up this task as soon as possible and with all priority. Do you agree? Your servant, Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 > A young gentleman from the US Military > had purchased 4 volumes of Srila Prabhupada's books with great enthusiasm! > He told me that he and some 8 of his friends would meet one night a week > and study Srila Prabhupada's Gita together! He then asked me if it were > possible to remain in the military and still "be a devotee?" After > relating this to Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace stood there with his > eyes wide with interest and he asked me, "So how did you answer him?" I > said, "Well Srila Prabhupada, I told him that he most certainly could! I > showed him the picture of Arjuna on the cover of Bhagavad Gita and > explained that Arjuna was the most important military figure of his time, > and that Lord Krsna had specifically spoken Bhagavada Gita to urge Arjuna > to perform his duty and fight for the proper cause. So Yes indeed he could > he could remain in the military and be a devotee!" Srila Prabhupada > smiled......appeared a little thoughtful for a second.....and then said, > "You have answered rightly.....Yes Arjuna was a military man!" Thanks for the story Pragosh prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. The story brings to my mind a question that comes up now and then. Can one be a devotee AND a meateater? Following a career as a militaryman, especially in our culture I would say it is very, very difficult to avoid meateating. I recall my former guru, Harikesa prabhu, telling that Srila Prabhupada told him to go preach in the eastern countries "even if he had to eat meat."! your servant Trayimaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 ********************** Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-one, Text 33 :PURPORT "The question may be raised that since the Lord is supposed to be worshiped by great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and others, how can an ordinary human being on this planet serve Him? This is clearly explained by Prthu Maharaja by the use of the word yatha-dhikara, "according to one's ability." If one sincerely executes his occupational duty, that will be sufficient. One does not need to become like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra, Lord Caitanya or Ramanujacarya, whose capabilities are certainly far above ours. Even a sudra, who is in the lowest stage of life according to the material qualities, can achieve the same success. Anyone can become successful in devotional service provided he displays no duplicity. It is explained here that one must be very frank and open-minded (amayinah). To be situated in a lower status of life is not a disqualification for success in devotional service. The only qualification is that whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, he must be open, frank and free from reservations." Like I said VAD- be the best you can be, honest with yourself, others and Krsna, thank you for your confirmation by sastra. "Then, by performing his particular occupational duty under the guidance of a proper spiritual master, he can achieve the highest success in life." But I think another part of varnasrama would be also to create the proper facilities and posts or posibilities for the proper engagement so that one can perform his particular occupational duty. Who would be responsible for that, the ksatriyas, (manager) or the vaisyas? In the normal society the entrepreneurs are a great asset for the particular society in order to create the proper engagement facilities for people, also important for there maintanance. And the ksatriyas are responsible for creating the proper facilities so that the entrepreneurs who are mostly vaisyas can prosper and engage theyr wealth for creating new jobs for the society. At least thats the method in the present democratic system. But I guess you have some reservations to kapitalistic engagements as you call it, although I can not fully understand you here. Kapitalism as we know it today started with the industrialization in the former centory, but I think the principles behind kapitalism are the principles of the vaisya class, who are interested to make profit. What would be a real vaisya without the mentality of making some profit out of his work. Of course the problem with todays society is that it is dominated by the vaisya class and mentality, which is of course not good, but therefore I dont think that one can condemn a real vaisya that he is engaging himself in kapitalistic ways in order to make profit. If there would be no profit by the vaysa class who would give money for building and maintaining temples and give donations to the brahmanas? You have the philosophy of subsistence, now my question is which real vaisya would be satisfyd to work and engage others in work without making any profit, that goes against his nature and mentality in my opinion. Varnasrama dharma society as I understand it is a society where the ksatriys take care that the different classes work harmoniously together without trying to dominate the others. In Communism it was dominated by the sudra class, here in this democratic system we can see everything is dominated by the vaisya class, a dictatership by the ksatriya class, so the best would be to be dominated or guidet by the ksatriyas who are taking advise from the brahmana intelectuals. Thus the whole society would work harmoniosly to please Visnu through there work or ocupational dutys. Ys Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 Hare Krsna Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP If one is obliged perhaps to enter into Military service due to forced conscription and the Military was not able or willing to provide Vegetarian diet then I suppose one would have little alternative. In the US Military there is generally a sufficient provision made to facilitate a vegetarian diet. Field rations as well. However during actual combat things could get rather hairy and - very quickly! Two of our young men here at New Talavana are presently in the US Air Force and US Marine Corps respectively. So far they have not encountered difficulty. But during actual combat - that may be a different story! Personally I believe common sense would always play a big role. Is the need for participation in civil defence overwhelming - ie. preservation of the state etc. Or is the cause of the WAR purely economic and thus any participation in such WAR just the case of acting like "Louie the Legbreaker" for the various Oligarchs that now lurk about the planet in Kali Yuga looking for resources to steal and conflicts to generate and profit from? These are most important questions to consider before putting oneself in the position of dealing with your available diet while serving in the Military. If I was personally involved in fighting for the defence of the innocent or the preservation of the sovereign state, I would have no qualms about eating any damn thing except cow! But that's just me. The world is changing rapidly and at this point it is hard to say if it's for the better or worse. The economic system that is being forced down the throats of the world is nothing but deceptive system of confiscation and fraud. The US is the birthplace of all this demonic nonsense and masks it's real intent in the cloak of beneficence! But perhaps there is a silver lining to it all that fits intio Lord Chaitanya's Plan that we are just not yet aware of! But If you are preaching to Military personel, O wouldn't begin by emphasizing no-meat eating. I would just emphasize accepting the simple devotional service of chanting the Holy Name and fighting for Krsna without fear or hesitation - like Sri Arjuna! He is most attractive. I hope this helps a little. It is my humble view - not absolute but seems to be the most practical! Ever your loving brother and servant Praghosa Das PS Here is a little something my 13 year old daughter shared with me yesterday - I think you will enjoy it as much as I did! THE ARMY NURSE What is a nurse? the little boy asked As he walked in the hospiltal ward. A nurse is one who takes care of the sick. Was his mother's quick reply. But she was anxious to get to her husband's bed As she passed the other visitors by. The boy's father hd come from a battlefield Where the enemy had left him to die. He looked at his son eho kept watching the nurse And a vision passed before his eye. A nurse, so bright, was that that night They were bringing the litters in. She was dressing men's wounds and easing Their opain not once.....but again and again. The man looked at his son who kept watching the nurse, And with a tear in his eye he said: "A Nurse, my son, is so many things, She really is hard to define. She's relief from pain, She's legs for the lame, And often she is eyes for the blind. She's the one who can smile when the going gets tough She takes the Army life with a nod. It's easy for her to be kind to these men, Because her Commanding Officer is God." Martha Vroeman R. N. France 1945 All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK) <Trayimaya.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:05 PM Re: Varnasrama Dharma and Suddha Bhakti >[Text 2978634 from COM] > >> A young gentleman from the US Military >> had purchased 4 volumes of Srila Prabhupada's books with great enthusiasm! >> He told me that he and some 8 of his friends would meet one night a week >> and study Srila Prabhupada's Gita together! He then asked me if it were >> possible to remain in the military and still "be a devotee?" After >> relating this to Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace stood there with his >> eyes wide with interest and he asked me, "So how did you answer him?" I >> said, "Well Srila Prabhupada, I told him that he most certainly could! I >> showed him the picture of Arjuna on the cover of Bhagavad Gita and >> explained that Arjuna was the most important military figure of his time, >> and that Lord Krsna had specifically spoken Bhagavada Gita to urge Arjuna >> to perform his duty and fight for the proper cause. So Yes indeed he could >> he could remain in the military and be a devotee!" Srila Prabhupada >> smiled......appeared a little thoughtful for a second.....and then said, >> "You have answered rightly.....Yes Arjuna was a military man!" > >Thanks for the story Pragosh prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. >The story brings to my mind a question that comes up now and then. Can one >be a devotee AND a meateater? Following a career as a militaryman, >especially in our culture I would say it is very, very difficult to avoid >meateating. >I recall my former guru, Harikesa prabhu, telling that Srila Prabhupada told >him to go preach in the eastern countries "even if he had to eat meat."! > >your servant Trayimaya dasa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.