Guest guest Posted February 1, 2000 Report Share Posted February 1, 2000 At 7:10 -0800 2/1/2000, Patrick Hedemark wrote: > No one could have achieved >the success in preaching that my good godbrother Harikesa prabhu has by >being some effeminate wimp who requires foolish flattery and dishonest and >duplicitous words in order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness. Excuse me - could you please clarify those words, Pragosa Prabhu? Especially your use of the term "effeminate" as related to someone who needs " foolish flattery and dishonest and duplicitous words in order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness." I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it souds, but it would be very nice to hear that from you directly, so that we'd be certain that you didn't just insult half of the population of ISKCON. TYhank you. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 Hare Krsna Mother, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! Mother this is the proverbial "response from stairs"! My post to you yesterday became somewhat hurried at the end(family matters and all that stuff) so in looking over my comments I realized that the subject warranted a little more explanation. Please indulge me. The use of the term "effeminate wimp" is a definite pejorative when used to describe a man. As you I am certain are aware the negative quality of vanity which is part and parcel of "woman" is due to her position as "The object of sense gratification" for man. Now of course if a woman is eager to regain her position as an eternal servant of Lord Krsna then she will naturally reliquish this particular vision of herself. So of course I am not referring to the 50% of our devotee population as you have inquired. Like their brothers, our godsisiters are all very hungry for the satisfaction of Lord Krsna and his pure devotees, so I am not referring to these devotees. Only I am referring to the dangerous desire to be the center of attention that is part and parcel of the mundane female nature. Who can deny that this is precisely the "hankering" that is exploited by mundane men in this world - both sexually and even more clearly - economically! So this particular need on the part of the woman makes it difficult to hear the straight unadulterated truth. Generally for a woman the truth needs to be sugar coated. ("Honey do you think I am fat?" and the wise husband replied "Oh no sweetie - you are just so much more voluptuous and that's exactly how I like you!") You get my drift? A preacher cannot be handicapped with such a need to have the truth sugarcoated. He or she knows that the Srimad Bhagavatam is meant for "Purified men who are thoroughly HONEST" SB 1.1 2 and thus he welcomes the straight truth because he (or she) knows that the mortality rate in the material world is 100% and he (or she) wants desparately wants to avoid wasting the valuable human form of life! Every woman knows that a man who is more concerned with being loved than actually loving is a needy and insecure man and she quickly loses respect for such man. A woman is naturally attracted to a man who is self-satisfied and confident. Isn't it? So an effeminate wimp is a man who sees himself as the "object" of womans affection not the benefactor of the woman. Similarly a preacher who is an "effeminate wimp" is actually not a preacher at all. He is a mundaner who is "dependent" upon the affection of his so-called followers and thus he cannot speak the cold hard truth to himself and he certainly cannot speak the cold hard truth to his patronized followers. In Bhagavad Gita 16.1-3 in the wonderful purport His Divine Grace describes such an "effeminate wimp of a preacher" as a "showbottle spiritualist" and says very clearly, "The theory that there is no need for austerity in life , that one can go on speculating and everything will be nice, is neither recommended in the Vedic literature nor in the Bhagavad Gita. Such theories are manufactured by SHOWBOTTLE SPIRITUALISTS who are trying to gather more followers. If there are restrictions, rules and regulations people will not become attracted. Therefore, those who want followers in the name of religion, JUST TO HAVE A SHOW ONLY, don't restrict the lives of their students, NOR THEIR OWN LIVES! But that method is not approved by the Vedas! So the postion of the bonefide preacher is that he is completely confident in Krsna Consciousness. He is not insecure in the least. He does not need the APPROVAL of anyone but His Spiritual Master. He knows that if he is pleased with his activities and his fearless and uncomproimised preaching (sans the sugar coating) then that is perfect. WE WATER THE ROOT AND ALL THE LEAVES AND TWIGS ARE AUTOMATICALLY NOURISHED! So my reference to the "effeminate preacher" is most certainly a pejoritive. However it is not meant to slight a single godsister who has taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada. Indeed I have found many of my godsisters to be far more willing to hear the straight sauce and devoid of the disgusting "effeminate" inclination to vainly sugar coat Srila Prabhupada's Divine Teachings, than I am myself. So I have all respect and admiration for anyone, man or woman, who just say's "Go ahead Srila Prabhupada - tell it like it is. I can take it. SWEET OR SALTY! I am just your eternal servant! Such devotees are the "stuff of life" for all who seek only the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna! I am praying that I can become such a sincere devotee. So I hope this helps in some small way to add further explanation to our conversation. Thank very much for your sincere inquiry and the opportunity to speak freely on this wonderful subject. Ista Ghosti KI Jaya! All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krsna! Ever your loving brother and servant Praghosa Das Maria Ekstrand <ekstrand (AT) slip (DOT) net> praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:25 AM effeminate wimp? >At 7:10 -0800 2/1/2000, Patrick Hedemark wrote: >> No one could have achieved >>the success in preaching that my good godbrother Harikesa prabhu has by >>being some effeminate wimp who requires foolish flattery and dishonest and >>duplicitous words in order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness. > >Excuse me - could you please clarify those words, Pragosa Prabhu? >Especially your use of the term "effeminate" as related to someone >who needs " foolish flattery and dishonest and duplicitous words in >order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness." > >I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it souds, but it would be very >nice to hear that from you directly, so that we'd be certain that you >didn't just insult half of the population of ISKCON. > >TYhank you. > >Ys, >Madhusudani dasi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net> Maria Ekstrand <ekstrand (AT) slip (DOT) net> Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:34 PM Re: effeminate wimp? >Hare Krsna Mother Madhusudhani Radha, >Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace. >To my knowledge there are indeed a few effeminate wimps in positions of >management in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON but the number is extremely small. >Only a handful. Not enough to become alarmed mother - so rest easy! > >Now if you are asking if I view the fair sex as feminine - Well my >goodness - Don't you? I could be mistaken but in general most women that I >know are adorned with very charming qualities. These qualities are very >wonderful and serve to create a very pleasing environment in Society when >properly encouraged - nourished - and above all carefully guarded. The two >most important qualities of the feminine segment of Society being of course >the qualities of shyness and chastity! These are the two qualities mentioned >by His Divine Grace as being particularly beneficial for the woman as an >individual and for the Society as a whole! Very wonderful! > >Now of course there are other qualities described in Bhagavad Gita 10.34 >Here Lord Krsna has described them as "Fame, fortune speech, memory, >intelligence, faithfulness and paitence." In the purport His Divine Grace >describes these qualities as "Feminine" and declares "if a woman posesses >some of them or all of them she becomes GLORIOUS!" Most endearing! Lord >Krsna here describes the quality of "Faithfulness" as being one of the very >wonderful and endearing qualities of women and indeed any man who is eager >to advance should study the inclination towards faithfulness that is >normally exhibited by chaste women who are protected by men who cherish them >and by doing so they can become very chaste disciples! I have marked that at >times women come to Srila Prabhupada's movement and in the beginning they >may exhibit great faith but for some reason or other - perhaps bad >association or a lack of hearing they begin to lose their faith in the >teachings and instructions of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. I have >heard, although I co not have personal experience of this phenomona, that >some women even are proposing that certain purports of Srila Prabhupada's >books should be "adjusted" to accomodate a more modern view of independence >for women. Now that may be motivated by some misguided desire to make Krsna >Consciousness more acceptable to the modern woman, but that is not >necessary. Modern woman's moral position is most bleak and as Srila >Prabhupada has pointed out "The demons therefore do not accept any >instruction which is good for society and because they don't follow the >experience of the great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the >sages(Srila Prabhupada) the social condition of society is VERY >MISERABLE!!" So some women are having a little loss of faith and this >faithlessness is even sometimes encouraged by men who are more concerned >with preserving their "Image" of being advocates for the ladies in Srila >Prabhupada's shelter. Srila Prabhupada has described such crass pandering to >the sentiments of misguided women as Demoniac. In his purport to BG 16.8 he >states that "Demons have now neglected such injunctions and they think that >women should be given as much freedom as men. He then says very clearly >"Howevre this has not improved the social condition of the world." > >So of course I am certain that you share Srila Prabhupada's compassionate >desire to improve the social condition in general by first and foremost >promoting these wonderful 'Feminine" qualities and especially the wonderful >quality of faithfulness! > >Now as regards my use of the term of effeminate, that is really not very >difficult to understand. Is it? As well as posessing many wonderful >qualities, women have such natural inclinations that are impediments and >most honest women readily admit them and as they become Krsna Conscious they >generally try to become free from their negative influence. Now of course we >men have a host of characteristics and qualities that most definitely make >our full surrender to Krsna tough and we also must seek the transforming >association of the Lords Pure Devotees in order to relinquish them. But at >present since you have so humbly asked I will try my best to respond. Woman >is by nature fearful and vain! This is simply the reality. She is fascinated >by her own appearence and her own capacity to distract. In a relationship >she thrives by the attention she receives from her father or husband. In >Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada comments that "The wife becomes more >beautiful when kissed by her husband" and often would quote Canakya Pandit >who said that "Just as the stars in the sky become more beautiful when there >is a full moon - similarly a woman becomes more beautiful when she basks in >the attention of her loving husband"! It is a coomon sense thing. this is >not your experience? A woman even a devotee woman likes to dress up in nice >clothes and accompany all the other chaste ladies to festive gatherings - >Please take note of the wonderful pastimes of Lord Siva and his wife Sati >in the fourth canto and her insistence on being given the chance to attend >the gala at the home of Daksa! Study the purports of His Divine Grace. Most >wonderful! So flattery is sought after by the woman - how she looks, how she >walks, how she keeps her hair even how she smells etc etc etc are very >important to her and if no one takes note of all her efforts to tend to >these matters, she will quickly become morose! A conscientious husband is >always alert to address her efforts in this regard, knowing how important >this is to her well being. If he does not then - Well then life becomes a >pain and most importantly - A BORE!! Perhaps the most important compliment a >man can pay his wife is attentive hearing. That is most important. "There is >a wonderful book called "How to talk so children will listen and How to >Listen SO CHILDREN WILL TALK!" Great book and it's principles are wonderful >for everyone -not just kids!" You will love it ! So flattery - the need to >receive it is a natural inclination - Lord Krsna is constantly complimenting >Srimati Radharani for everything from her sweet voice to her overwhelming >beauty to her singing and cooking etc etc etc. That is the nature of the >realtionship between the Real Purusa and the Real Prakriti in Goloka and >thus we find that same feature here in the material world - exhibited by the >False Purusas and False Prakritis. So it is easy to understand what is meant >by an effeminate man - simply a man who exhibits the same type of flattery >and compliment laden speech that is normally reserved for the woman. That's >all! He is sentimental and not eager for the type of "cutting" truth that is >delivered by the sadhu! Like a woman he is overly concerned with his >appearance - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati described such useless men as >"FOPS"! I like the term effeminate since it is more common in todays world. > >However please take note that I stated clearly that HG Harikesa Prabhu is to >my knowledge neither a FOP or an effeminate wimp and rather enjoys the >straight sauce. You gotta love him for that! > >So I hop this has helped you somewhat. If further clarification is required >then I will be more than happy to illuminate the subject as needed. > >Ever your loving brother and servant >Praghosa Dsas > > > >Maria Ekstrand <ekstrand (AT) slip (DOT) net> >praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se ><ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se ><Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:25 AM >effeminate wimp? > > >>At 7:10 -0800 2/1/2000, Patrick Hedemark wrote: >>> No one could have achieved >>>the success in preaching that my good godbrother Harikesa prabhu has by >>>being some effeminate wimp who requires foolish flattery and dishonest and >>>duplicitous words in order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness. >> >>Excuse me - could you please clarify those words, Pragosa Prabhu? >>Especially your use of the term "effeminate" as related to someone >>who needs " foolish flattery and dishonest and duplicitous words in >>order to feel comfortable in Krsna Consciousness." >> >>I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it souds, but it would be very >>nice to hear that from you directly, so that we'd be certain that you >>didn't just insult half of the population of ISKCON. >> >>TYhank you. >> >>Ys, >>Madhusudani dasi >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2000 Report Share Posted February 3, 2000 At 7:58 -0800 2/2/2000, Patrick Hedemark wrote: >So of course I am not >referring to the 50% of our devotee population as you have inquired. Thank you for that clarification. I'm glad to hear that. But I find your statement: >Generally for a woman the truth needs to be >sugar coated. ("Honey do you think I am fat?" and the wise husband replied >"Oh no sweetie - you are just so much more voluptuous and that's exactly how >I like you!") You get my drift? .....both insulting and patronizing, and not at all applicable to most women. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2000 Report Share Posted February 3, 2000 >Now if you are asking if I view the fair sex as feminine - No, that's not at all what I'm asking. Obviously men are masculine and women are feminine. Sorry you felt you had to take so much time to explain an answer to a question I didn't ask, especially if it took time away from your family. I'll try to formulate my questions more clearly in the future. > I have > >heard, although I co not have personal experience of this phenomona, that > >some women even are proposing that certain purports of Srila Prabhupada's > >books should be "adjusted" to accomodate a more modern view of >independence > >for women. I consider rumors and gossip a waste of time. Better stick to those events with which we *do* have personal experience. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2000 Report Share Posted February 3, 2000 Hare Krsna Mother Madhusudhani Radha, It appears then that in this regard I am ill-informed. So as to avoid any confusion on this matter, prehaps you could be so kind as to answer me a simple question. Do you now, or have you in the past, publically or privately, stated or agreed, with the suggestion that it might be necessary or beneficial to remove from Srila Prabhupada's Divine Purports any statements that could be construed or even misconstrued as sexists and discouraging to women? Ever your loving brother and servant, Praghosa Das Maria Ekstrand <ekstrand (AT) slip (DOT) net> praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:10 AM Re: Fw: effeminate wimp? >>Now if you are asking if I view the fair sex as feminine - > >No, that's not at all what I'm asking. Obviously men are masculine >and women are feminine. Sorry you felt you had to take so much time >to explain an answer to a question I didn't ask, especially if it >took time away from your family. I'll try to formulate my questions >more clearly in the future. > >> I have >> >heard, although I co not have personal experience of this phenomona, that >> >some women even are proposing that certain purports of Srila Prabhupada's >> >books should be "adjusted" to accomodate a more modern view of >>independence >> >for women. > >I consider rumors and gossip a waste of time. Better stick to those >events with which we *do* have personal experience. > >Ys, >Madhusudani dasi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2000 Report Share Posted February 3, 2000 "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2982786 from COM] > > At 7:58 -0800 2/2/2000, Patrick Hedemark wrote: > >So of course I am not > >referring to the 50% of our devotee population as you have inquired. > > Thank you for that clarification. I'm glad to hear that. > > But I find your statement: > > >Generally for a woman the truth needs to be > >sugar coated. ("Honey do you think I am fat?" and the wise husband replied > >"Oh no sweetie - you are just so much more voluptuous and that's exactly how > >I like you!") You get my drift? > > ....both insulting and patronizing, and not at all applicable to most women. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi I agree. This is just a stereotype. It is no more true for women than for men. (And please, women, don't write that it is more true for men than for women -- that is also a stereotype.) your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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