On choosing a guru in the present circumstances...

[Guest guest]

Bhadra Govinda Prabhu wrote:

 

> 3. Your speculation is there are no sadgurus at present or one must

> surrender only to a *self effulgent acharya* . I think one can surrender

> to any sadguru and not only just to a self effulgent acarya. There are so

> many sadgurus out there, among Srila Prabhupada's disciples, by Srila

> Prabhupada's mercy.

 

I will answer the third point first and the earlier points later.

 

Nobody can say categorically that there are no sadgurus in ISKCON atpresent.

Once can only understand the position of others when one is himself on a

very high platform. But the very fact that the GBC had to implement Guru

Reform speaks for itself and certainly gives a hint that all the gurus in

ISKCON may not be on the highest platform. Because a sadguru never needs to

be reformed. Infact he never commits mistakes or deviates from the

instructions of his spiritual master. Do you agree?

 

It is my personal opinion that some (if not many) of the falldowns of the

gurus in ISKCON has been due to accepting a platform (& everything that goes

with it) higher than that they were on. This is confirmed by the Srila

Prabhupada as well as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta:

 

"However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or

maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will

eventually become degraded." (NOI Text 5)

 

"If they fraudulently imitate the maha-bhagavata devotee, they will

very quickly fall down from their position. Sometimes the kanistha-adhikari

falls down due to considering himself a guru." ("Anuvritti" commentary of

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada)

 

> There are so many sadgurus out there, among Srila Prabhupada's disciples,

> by Srila Prabhupada's mercy. There are many qualified sadgurus *in the

> making* even among granddisciples by Srila Prabhupada's mercy.

 

I for one would infact suggest the granddisciples (or for that matter

anyone) to be very very cautious in going for guruship. We should constantly

remember Prabhupada's instruction in NOI, text 5 that:

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

platform of uttama-adhikari."

 

Now Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu gave an explanation that the uttama-adhikari

which Prabhupada talks about in this purport is different from the

uttama-adhikari who has achieved Krsna-prema and sees the Lord everywhere.

He said that there are two kinds of uttama-adhikaries described in

Prabhupada's books. But I don't agree with this for two reasons:

 

(1) No acarya has ever said that there two ways of defining an

uttama-adhikari.

 

(2) Prabhupada does not mention anywhere in this purport that the

uttama-adhikari he is describing here is different from that mentioned in

Bhagavatam & Cc.

 

(3) All the acaryas who have commented on text 5 of Upadeshamrita have

described the the uttama-adhikari mentioned in this verse to be one on the

topmost platform of KC because of being engaged in serving Radha-Krsna in

Their asta-kaliya-lila.

 

>From "Anuvritti" commentary of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada:

 

"The topmost Vaisnava (uttama or maha-bhagavata) is he at the mere

sight of whom others automatically begin chanting krsna-nama.Knowing the

uttama Vaisnava to be the topmost devotee who is established in the

particular mood of service to Sri Radha-Krsna for which one aspires and to

be affectionately disposed towards oneself, one should serve him with great

love. Because the maha-bhagavata devotees see everything as being related to

Krsna, they see all living entities with equal vision.Like madhyama-adhikari

devotees, they are intent on performing bhajana, and like kanistha-adhikari

devotees, they are devoted to chanting harinama."

 

>From "Piyusa-varsini-vritti" commentary of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

"The topmost devotee ( uttama-bhakta) sees all living entities with equal

vision. Therefore, he doesn't discriminate between devotees and

non-devotees. The intermediate devotee ( madhyama-bhakta) is one who

sincerely endeavours to perform bhajana. This fifth verse indicates how

madhyama devotees should behave towards the topmost class of devotees."

 

>From "Upadesa-Prakasika" commentary on text 5 of Sri Radha-Ramana dasa

Gosvami who was a pure devotee and one who introduced Baladeva Vidyabhusana

to Gaudiya Vaisnavism and sent him to Vrindavana to learn under Srila

Visvanatha Chakravarti:

 

"This verse gives instruction on svarupa-siddha-bhakti.We should

respectfully offer pranama to those who have accepted initiation from a

qualified guru. In all ways we should lovingly serve those who perform

exclusive bhajana of Sri Krsna by manasa-seva and who are expert in the

procedure of worshipping Krsna's as a-kaliya-lila, knowing them to be the

most desirable association. The meaning of "exclusive bhajana" is to be

solely devoted to the worship of Sri Radha-Krsna in Vraja, without

attachment for Laksmi-Narayana or other incarnations of Bhagavan. It says in

the Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu that amongst the exclusive devotees of the

many different incarnations of hagavan, those whose hearts have been stolen

by Sri Nanda-nandana are the best because even the favour of the master of

Laksmi, Sri Narayana, cannot attract their minds. Because such exclusive

devotees are forever alert to cultivate bhakti in the company of those

topmost devotees who are expert in relishing devotional mellows (rasika), as

well as being like-minded and affectionate, their hearts are always free

from contaminations such as the tendency to criticise others. Knowing these

topmost devotees to be the most desirable association, one should respect

them mentally, offer pranama unto them and render service to them

with great love."

 

"One who is conversant with the science of bhajana as described in the

Srimad-Bhagavatam and other Vaisnava scriptures and who performs exclusive

bhajana of Sri Krsna is a maha-bhagavata devotee. Due to his undeviating

absorption in Krsna, the pure heart of such a devotee is free from faults

such as the tendency to criticise others. He is expert in bhajana, meaning

that he mentally renders service ( manasa-seva) to Sri Radha-Krsna's

pastimes which take place during the eight segments of the day

(asta-kaliya-lila). Knowing him to be a topmost devotee whose heart is

established in the particular mood of service to Sri Radha-Krsna for which

one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself, one should

honour him by offering dandavat-pranama (pranipata), making relevant inquiry

(pariprasna) and rendering service (seva) with great love."

 

The descriptions of the uttama-adhikari by Srila Prabhupada in the purport

to text 5 are as follows:

 

1. Advanced in undeviated devotional service.

2. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others.

3. His heart is completely clean.

4. Has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness.

Realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Krsna.

5. Seriously engaged in the service of the Lord. Loses interest in

everything but Krsna's service.

6. Strictly following all the regulative principles. Always thinking of

Krsna.

7. Chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads.

8. Always thinking of how to expand the Krishna consciousness movement.

9. Understands that there is no difference between the Lord and His name.

10.Can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to

Vaisnavism.

 

So it is very clear that the conclusion is that the uttama-adhikari talked

about here by Srila Prabhupada is the same uttama-adhikari who has described

in the Bhagavatam, Cc & the acaryas as being on the topmost platform of

Krsna prema.

 

So the next conclusion is that one should not become a spiritual master

unless one achieves the actual platform of uttama-adhikari, maha-bhagavata.

And that is why I would humbly advice anyone who wants to become a diksha

guru to understand all these implications first and not take on this service

of a diksha-guru unless one knows that he is an uttama-adhikari (all

definitions included) or unless there it is an emergency and it is required

very very much for one's preaching activities.

 

Srila Rsabhadeva advised His sons, gurur na sa syat. .. na mocayed yah

samupeta-mrtyum: "One should not take up the post of spiritual master unless

he is able to lead his disciple from the cycle of birth and death." (Bhag.

5.5.18)

 

Ofcourse Prabhupada recommended 11 devotees to become gurus after his

departure, but he specifically used the term "regular gurus" & "officiating

acarya" which hints to the fact that they should not assume a position

higher that when they are on. He said that the acarya will be self-effulgent

and will automatically be selected. But this point could not be understood

and the 11 proclaimed themselves as acaryas and we know the consequences. So

in the absence of an uttama there can be madhyama gurus but they should be

selected with great scrutiny by the GBC and the no. of madhyama gurus need

not be more, maybe a handful of them or even two or three or 11. Their basic

qualification should be that they should be progressing fast towards the

uttama platform. I am against the system of appointing many many diksha

gurus without proper scrutiny of their qualifications. And according to

Srila Prabhupada it should be understood that the guidance of madhyama or

kanishtha gurus will not be sufficient to take us back to Godhead. Not that

the madhyamas become gurus and then they are worshipped or act like uttamas

and their guidance is considered 100% perfect. Then the whole system becomes

degraded. The madhyama gurus should remain honest to their position and

continue their service. Then when the real uttama manifests, everyone can

surrender to him. This is the opinion of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta also that a

guru can guide & not commit a fatal blunder only to the extent he is in the

realm of spirit:

 

"As soon as we are fully convinced of the necessity of submitting

unambiguously to the good preceptor it is then and only then that he is

enabled to show us the way into the spiritual world in accordance with the

method laid down in the shastras of that purpose which he can apply properly

and without perpetrating a fatal blunder in as much as he himself happens to

belong to the realm of the spirit."

 

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

 

> 1. I have heard that as soon as one comes across a sadguru, one should

> immediately take his shelter and surrender to him. If so why should some

> one wait for 10 or 20 years(10 or 20 years is a speculation, one can

> speculate any other number 50 or 60)?

 

Whatever you have heard is right but you have forgotten another instruction

that one has to endeavour & search out & then the test the sadguru and be

convinced that he is a sadguru before accepting him. Now it has been

discussed above that all spiritual masters in ISKCON need not be

uttama-adhikaries. So this endeavour of searching out an uttama-adhikari

spiritual master, finding him, hearing & serving him for a fixed period,

becoming convinced about his advanced position make take many many years

especially because such a personality is very very rare. So i said 10 or 20

years but it may take even more than one lifetime to get a real sadguru.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura confirms this in Hari-nama-cintamani:

 

suddha-bhakta vyatita anyera guru karibe na

guru varanera purvai guru o'sisyera pariksha sastra nirdesa kariyachena

suddha-guru PARIKSHA kariya varana karibe...

 

Don't accept anyone except a pure devotee as your guru.

Accept a pure devotee as guru after testing him. This is the instruction of

the sastra.

 

Why?

 

Because

 

bhajiya ayogya guru sisya haya panda

 

Worshipping an unqualified guru the disciple becomes cannot progress.

 

ATAEVA PRATHAME VISESA YATNA KARI

SUDDHA BHAKTA LAIBENA GURURUPE VARI

 

One who disobeys the order of the sadguru, he is the most sinful offender in

the whole world.

 

AND THAT IS WHY WITH GREAT ENDEAVOUR IN THE VERY BEGINNING TRY TO SEEK OUT

THE SUDDHA BHAKTA AND THEN ACCEPT HIM AS YOUR GURU.

 

Srila Prabhupada says: "THEREFORE A DISCIPLE SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO ACCEPT AN

UTTAMA-ADHIKARI AS A SPIRITUAL MASTER."

 

It would be preferable to advice aspiring devotees in ISKCON to concentrate

on searching out the uttama-adhikari guru and making it sure by hearing from

him and serving him for a reasonable period then to just say that so and so

is a sadguru and you surrende to him now or you will loose the chance

because human life is rare & so on. Such canvassing is not required. Let the

aspiring disciples be educated on the need for accepting an uttama guru and

then leave it up to them to find one even if it takes many years for them

but let them be convinced. This is the process taught by the acaryas.

 

INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TELL THE ASPIRING DISCIPLES TO ACCEPT A SADGURU AS SOON

AS POSSIBLE, ISKCON SHOULD EDUCATE THEM ABOUT THE NEED FOR AN

UTTAMA-ADHIKARI GURU & HIS QUALIFICATIONS & ENCOURAGE THEM TO BE PATIENT AND

SEARCH OUT SUCH A SADGURU. THE GBC CAN ALSO BE VERY CAREFUL TO ALLOW THE

DIKSHA GURU STATUS TO THOSE DEVOTEES WHO ARE VERY ADVANCED IN THEIR KRSNA

CONSCIOUSNESS. EVEN THOUGH THE NO. OF GURUS MAY BE LESS THE QUALITY HAS TO

BE THERE.

 

I would say that a sadguru means one who has come down from the platform of

uttama-adhikari to the platform of madhyama-adhikari to preach & accept

disciples and a guru to be one who has progressed from the kanishtha to the

madhyama platform and has decided to initiate disciple for the sake of

continuing the preaching in the absence of a sadguru.

 

I would like to conclude with this message from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta which

confirms all the statements above:

 

"No one is a good preceptor who has not realised the Absolute. One who has

realised the Absolute is saved from the necessity of walking on the worldly

path. The good preceptor who lives the spiritual life is, therefore, bound

to be WHOLLY* good. He should be wholly free from any desire for anything of

this world whether good or bad."

 

"If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided

by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such

preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their

spiritual state."

 

"The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the

preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible

creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his

disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely."

 

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

Dear Nayana Ranjana Prabhu,

 

Thank you very much for your quick reply. There are some very wonderful

quotations in your message. Most of them I have come across, many times

earlier.

 

I am sorry to say that all these perfect quotations, coming from the most

perfect 'Guru' , 'Sadhu' and 'Shastra' do not support any one of your

speculations either in the first message or in the second message.

 

Let me list some of your speculations. Please clarify:

 

1. But the very fact that the GBC had to implement Guru Reform speaks for

itself and certainly gives a hint that all the gurus in ISKCON may not be on

the highest platform.

 

Q. Has GBC said this, in so many words?

 

2. It is my personal opinion that some (if not many) of the falldowns of the

gurus in ISKCON has been due to accepting a platform (& everything that goes

with it) higher than that they were on.

 

Q. Only Lord Krishna knows the higher purpose of those great souls leaving

the battlefield, spiritually wounded. Did Lord Krishna tell you the above

reason?

 

3. I for one would infact suggest the granddisciples (or for that matter

anyone) to be very very cautious in going for guruship.

 

Q. Who said that any granddisciple is going for guruship? (I only said by

the system of Parampara and by Srila Prabhupada's mercy, many second

generation devotees will be ready to spread the movement after the first

generation is no more there.)

 

4. So the next conclusion is that one should not become a spiritual master

unless one achieves the actual platform of uttama-adhikari, maha-bhagavata.

 

Q. No Vaishnava thinks he is a vaishnava. How does a Uttama Adhikari Maha

Bhagavata, think that he is a Uttam Adhikari Bhagavata . (One becomes a

spiritual master only on the order one's spiritual master, not because he

thinks he is a Uttama)

 

5. I am against the system of appointing many many diksha gurus without

proper scrutiny of their qualifications.

Q. Who said there is a system of appointing with out proper scrutiny of

their qualifications. If so there would be thousands and not just some

tens, of initiating gurus in our society.

 

6. So the next conclusion is that one should not become a spiritual master

unless one achieves the actual platform of uttama-adhikari, maha-bhagavata.

 

Q. No Vaishnava thinks he is a vaishnava. How does a Uttama Adhikari Maha

Bhagavata, think that he is a Uttam Adhikari Bhagavata . (One becomes a

spiritual master only on the order one's spiritual master, not because he

thinks he is a Uttama)

 

7. And that is why I would humbly advice anyone who wants to become a diksha

guru to understand all these implications first and not take on this service

of a diksha-guru unless one knows that he is an uttama-adhikari (all

definitions included) or unless there it is an emergency and it is required

very very much for one's preaching activities.

 

Q Who said that the Gurus have not understood all these implications, before

becoming Diksha Gurus. Every baby in ISKCON knows all these implications.

Who in the world would take the Karma of all the disciples by becoming a

spiritual master, at the risk of killing oneself, unless he is the most

compassionate?

 

8. It would be preferable to advice aspiring devotees in ISKCON to

concentrate on searching out the uttama-adhikari guru and making it sure by

hearing from him and serving him for a reasonable period then to just say

that so and so is a sadguru and you surrende to him now or you will loose

the chance because human life is rare & so on. Such canvassing is not

required. Let the aspiring disciples be educated on the need for accepting

an uttama guru and then leave it up to them to find one even if it takes

many years for them but let them be convinced. This is the process taught by

the acaryas.

 

Q. How can anyone push anyone into Diksha by canvassing. It is individual

decision. We are talking of fully grown up individuals. Both the Guru and

disciple have to take their responsibilities. Everyone is grown up. It is

so dificult , one cannot push or canvass a person even to chant 1 mala of

Maha Mantra. How difficult it is to push a person to come up to 16 rounds.

I know tens of Bhaktas, who have a misconception that they are not pure

enough to take Diksha. It is a devotee's duty to tell them that Diksha is

the purificatory process, and there are a number of bonafide gurus in ISKCON

and they can chose one who they develop faith in, and pray to Lord Krishna

to help them in this matter.

 

9.So in the absence of an uttama there can be madhyama gurus but they should

be selected with great scrutiny by the GBC and the no. of madhyama gurus

need not be more, maybe a handful of them or even two or three or 11.

 

Q. Why should there be only 2 or 3 or 11 Gurus? Lord Caitanya wanted every

one born in the land of Bharata to become Guru.

 

10.. Not that the madhyamas become gurus and then they are worshipped or act

like uttamas and their guidance is considered 100% perfect.

 

Q. No Vaishnava wants to be worshipped. A Guru takes worship in the mood of

a servant to his own Guru and Parampara and also as a service to his

disciples. That is he takes the worship and hands over to his predecessors.

 

11. If one does not have a diksha guru as yet, it is better to wait for some

or many years (even though it may take 10 or 20 years) and search out a guru

who is chanting the pure Name (offenselessly) and who is directly serving

under Srimati Radharani in the spiritual world.

 

Q. Do you think that the Radha Rasabihari at Juhu are different from the

Radha Rasa Bihari in the spiritual world? Is your worship everyday to Radha

Rasbihari not direct worship to Radha Rasbihari of the spiritual world?

"Nikunjayuno ratikeli siddhai ...." can be perfectly understood if one

understands that the deities are non different from the Supreme Lordships.

Where ever their worship is done, their glories are sung, and the names are

chanted that place is non different from spiritual world.

 

12.Ultimately it is a fact that these guru-issue problems can't be fully

solved unless an unanimously accepted, self-effulgent uttama adhikari guru

is personally present in our society.

 

Q. You say that there were no guru-issue problems during the times of past

self -effulgent Acaryas? Problems were always there, are there and will

always be there. What do you say?

 

13. The descriptions of the uttama-adhikari by Srila Prabhupada in the

purport to text 5 are as follows:

 

1. Advanced in undeviated devotional service.

2. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others.

3. His heart is completely clean.

4. Has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness.

Realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Krsna.

5. Seriously engaged in the service of the Lord. Loses interest in

everything but Krsna's service.

6. Strictly following all the regulative principles. Always thinking of

Krsna.

7. Chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads.

8. Always thinking of how to expand the Krishna consciousness movement.

9. Understands that there is no difference between the Lord and His name.

10.Can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to

Vaisnavism.

 

 

Q. I would say that the above 10 points are some of the basics that a

sadhana bhakta, must follow as a part of his daily sadhana. Don't you think

so? (Ofcourse during sadhana he practises the above points, and in the

advanced stage the above activities become his nature.).

 

My speculation: Most of the guru related problems would be reduced very

much, if we all discussed disciple reform in ISKCON rather than guru reform.

By doing so even the bonafide gurus will be covered in the discussion as

every Guru is also a disciple of his own guru.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

Bhadra Balaram Prabhu writes:

 

> Let me list some of your speculations. Please clarify:

 

On one hand you are asking for clarifications and on the other hand you are

already labelling them as speculations. Don't label them before you can

prove that they are so. Otherwise what is the use in having a discussion.

 

> Q. Has GBC said this, in so many words?

 

The GBC has made it clear that it takes no responsibility for what level

this person (guru) is at.

 

> Did Lord Krishna tell you the above reason?

 

Yes, He instructs everyone from the heart.

 

> Q. Who said that any granddisciple is going for guruship?

 

I did'nt say they were going for guruship but if they go for guruship...

 

> Q. Why should there be only 2 or 3 or 11 Gurus? Lord Caitanya wanted

> every one born in the land of Bharata to become Guru.

 

But first become qualified...And the qualification is that one should try to

become an uttama-adhikari according to Srila Prabhupada. So it turns out the

Lord is actually instructing everyone to become pure devotees.

 

Another way of seeing this instruction which Prabhupada has taught us is

that anyome can become a vartmana-patha-pradarshaka guru or siksha guru and

preach according to his capacity.

 

> Q. No Vaishnava thinks he is a vaishnava. How does a Uttama Adhikari

> Maha Bhagavata, think that he is a Uttam Adhikari Bhagavata .

 

First of all only an advanced devotee does not think that he is a vaisnava

because of his humility. A neophyte thinks he is the best vaisnava. But each

devotee is perfectly aware of his level of spiritual advancement just like

one who puts food in the stomach through the mouth is perfectly aware how

much his hunger has been satisfied. And to act according to that position is

known as honesty.

 

> Q. Who said there is a system of appointing with out proper scrutiny of

> their qualifications.

 

I never said that there is no scrutiny. I said that there should be better

scrutiny. Not simply a vote if anybody has any objections.

 

> Q. No Vaishnava wants to be worshipped. A Guru takes worship in the mood

> of a servant to his own Guru and Parampara and also as a service to his

> disciples. That is he takes the worship and hands over to his

> predecessors.

 

If this was the case for all gurus, why did quite a few of them falldown?

Please don't try to avoid this question. You speak as if everything is going

on in our society as perfectly alright.

 

> Q Who said that the Gurus have not understood all these implications,

> before becoming Diksha Gurus. Every baby in ISKCON knows all these

> implications.

 

If you are claiming that every guru has understood all the implications then

there would be no talk about guru reform and discussion amongst gurus

themselves and they would not have accepted guru reform.

 

> Q. I would say that the above 10 points are some of the basics that a

> sadhana bhakta, must follow as a part of his daily sadhana. Don't you

> think so?

 

No, these 10 are given by Prabhupada to be characteristics of an

uttama-adhikari not sadhana bhaktas.

 

> Q. Do you think that the Radha Rasabihari at Juhu are different from the

> Radha Rasa Bihari in the spiritual world? Is your worship everyday to

> Radha Rasbihari not direct worship to Radha Rasbihari of the spiritual

> world? "Nikunjayuno ratikeli siddhai ...." can be perfectly understood if

> one understands that the deities are non different from the Supreme

> Lordships.

 

But you can only fully understand that the deities are non different from

the Supreme Lordships only when you are on the highest platform i.e nikunja

yuno rati keli siddhyai... in the spiritual world. So my earlier statement

still stands.

 

> Q. How can anyone push anyone into Diksha by canvassing. It is individual

> decision.

 

You seem to be in some other world. Please wake up to the reality! There is

pressure in many places to get initiated at the earliest without the proper

education of how to choose & what to look for in a guru. Maybe the

canvassing for a particular guru has gone down but the pressure to take

early initiation without proper knowledge is still prevalent.

 

> Q. You say that there were no guru-issue problems during the times of past

> self -effulgent Acaryas? Problems were always there, are there and will

> always be there. What do you say?

 

Some foolish devotees may decide to leave their guru who is a self-effulgent

acarya. This is a minor problem compared to now, when some of the gurus

themselves fall down or commit clearly visible mistakes. Because the

problems with the gurus are much more serious than the problems with the

disciples. yad yad acarati sreshthas...

 

> My speculation: Most of the guru related problems would be reduced very

> much, if we all discussed disciple reform in ISKCON rather than guru

> reform.

 

I don't think so at all. How can the disciples reform until the gurus

reform? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says explicitly that how is a disciple to

blame if he cannot surrender to a preceptor who is not wholly good. The

disciples can never become ideal disciples unless the gurus are ideal

themselves.

 

> By doing so even the bonafide gurus will be covered in the

> discussion as every Guru is also a disciple of his own guru.

 

Any discussion on disciple reform is a waste of time till guru reform is set

right. Such an attempt will lead to more confusion.

 

I have answered all your questions. I hope you can do the same.

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

Dear Nayana Ranjana Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and

ISKCON. All glories to Your Grace.

 

Thank you very much for being more precise and specific and to the point

this time. However, wake up Prabhuji. I am not Bhadra Balaram Prabhu. I

am Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

 

I am asking clarifications because they looked like speculations. If they

did not look like speculations why should I ask for clarifications.

 

> Bhadra Balaram Prabhu writes:

> > Let me list some of your speculations. Please clarify:

> > Q. Has GBC said this, in so many words?

 

> The GBC has made it clear that it takes no responsibility for what level

> this person (guru) is at.

 

I am aware of this, and the no objection rule etc,.

 

> > Did Lord Krishna tell you the above reason?

> Yes, He instructs everyone from the heart.

 

Atlast, you are using Krishna's Name to support your speculation. Amazing.

I suggest you leave it to Krishna why any one has left the spiritual path,

and there is no need for you to speculate why any one left. You may just

say it is most unfortunate that some one left.

 

> > Q. Why should there be only 2 or 3 or 11 Gurus? Lord Caitanya wanted

> > every one born in the land of Bharata to become Guru.

 

> But first become qualified...And the qualification is that one should try

to

> become an uttama-adhikari according to Srila Prabhupada. So it turns out

the

> Lord is actually instructing everyone to become pure devotees.

 

This was obvious to me when I made that comment.

 

> Another way of seeing this instruction which Prabhupada has taught us is

> that anyome can become a vartmana-patha-pradarshaka guru or siksha guru

and

> preach according to his capacity.

 

Sorry, you forgot something here. Let me correct ....any one can become a

vartma -patha-pradarshaka guru AND/or siksha guru AND/OR DIKSHA GURU and

preach according to his capacity.

 

> > Q. No Vaishnava thinks he is a vaishnava. How does a Uttama Adhikari

> > Maha Bhagavata, think that he is a Uttam Adhikari Bhagavata .

 

>But each devotee is perfectly aware of his level of spiritual advancement

just like

> one who puts food in the stomach through the mouth is perfectly aware how

> much his hunger has been satisfied. And to act according to that position

is

> known as honesty.

 

Excellent point. My only objection is why you are judging others's honesty.

 

> > Q. Who said there is a system of appointing with out proper scrutiny of

> > their qualifications.

>

> I never said that there is no scrutiny. I said that there should be better

> scrutiny. Not simply a vote if anybody has any objections.

 

This is a very nice system, as of now until a better system is brought in.

When no body objects, it means every one has agreed.

 

> > Q. No Vaishnava wants to be worshipped. A Guru takes worship in the

mood

> > of a servant to his own Guru and Parampara and also as a service to his

> > disciples. That is he takes the worship and hands over to his

> > predecessors.

 

> If this was the case for all gurus, why did quite a few of them falldown?

> Please don't try to avoid this question. You speak as if everything is

going

> on in our society as perfectly alright.

 

Krishna has not yet revealed to me the reasons as you say he has revealed to

you. I do not want to speculate reasons for someone's fall down. My

understanding is, as devotees if we can help some one then we must talk

about them. Other wise we must not talk about them. Otherwise that talk

tantamounts to Gramya Katha.

 

> No, these 10 are given by Prabhupada to be characteristics of an

> uttama-adhikari not sadhana bhaktas.

 

Agreed. A higher understanding is that the Sadhana Bhaktas must practise

these 10 points as a part of sadhana. What I have understood from Srila

Prabhupada's teachings is there is no difference between the activities of

an advanced devotee and a Sadhana Bhakta. The only difference is in the

stage of Sadhana, these activities are practised (under the guaidance of a

bonafide spiritual master) and in the advanced stage they become one's

nature.

 

> But you can only fully understand that the deities are non different from

> the Supreme Lordships only when you are on the highest platform i.e

nikunja

> yuno rati keli siddhyai... in the spiritual world. So my earlier statement

> still stands.

 

As I said one understands, the deities are non different from the Supreme

Lordships just by faith on the words of Guru, Sadhu and Shastra. Premanjana

(Premanajana churita bhakti vilochanena) is simply the faith on Guru, Sadhu

and Shastra. I do not know why you are saying that the altar of Radha

Rasbihari is not spiritual world, for devotees atlarge, ( and it is so only

for a highly advanced devotee)and all the devotees who are worshipping them

with the simple understanding that the deities are non different from their

Lordships are not on the highest platform.

 

> You seem to be in some other world. Please wake up to the reality! There

is

> pressure in many places to get initiated at the earliest without the

proper

> education of how to choose & what to look for in a guru. Maybe the

> canvassing for a particular guru has gone down but the pressure to take

> early initiation without proper knowledge is still prevalent.

 

If this is what you wanted to say, you could have said this in your first

message (minus speculations) and saved everybody's time. That is what I

requested you.-- "Prabhu, please post the message after removing the

speculations". Just to convey this simple message, I donot understand why

you had to add so many speculative statements.

 

Now can you please relook into your first message "On choosing a guru" and

repost the message after corrections. It is a very nice message for the

devotee community of ISKCON.

 

I expect the most auspicious reply/action from Your Grace. Please pray for

me.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

At 23:34 +0800 3/29/2000, Bhadra Govinda Das (JPS) wrote:

>My

>understanding is, as devotees if we can help some one then we must talk

>about them. Other wise we must not talk about them. Otherwise that talk

>tantamounts to Gramya Katha.

 

While I think it's true that gossiping about others' fall-downs is

not a particularly spiritually enlivening practice, it is also true

that these fall-downs are not just the personal business of the gurus

who fell. Thousands of disciples have been affected as has the

entire society. Some disciples and godbrothers/godsisters were

traumatised to the point of losing faith all together, or at least

leaving ISKCON. We therefore absolutely must discuss what went wrong

and how to try to prevent it from happening again. All is not well

in ISKCON right now and that's why devotees at all levels are

contributing their 2 cents about how to make it a place more

condusive to cultuvating spiritual life. Obviously such discussions

need to be balanced and there is no need to simply dwell on the

details of anyone's fall down, but we're never going to grow if we

simply ban the discussions all together, just because they're not

helping the person who fell.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhadra Govinda Prabhu,

Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for all your questions & comments. By discussing with you I feel

all the points on this issue have been covered and clear in my mind and so I

can compile them in a paper for my future reference.

 

> I am aware of this... This was obvious to me when I made that comment.

 

I think the discussion can end here (from my side atleast) as you seem to be

already aware of all the points I am making and you are not able to prove

that any single statement is speculation.

 

> Now can you please relook into your first message "On choosing a guru" and

> repost the message after corrections. It is a very nice message for the

> devotee community of ISKCON.

 

Thanks for the compliments. I feel the message is okay and there is

absolutely no need of any corrections whatsoever.

 

But if you don't feel so even after this discussion then I have no objection

if you make the corrections (which you want to do) yourself and repost the

message.

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

Dear Nayana Ranjana Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and

ISKCON. All glories to Your Grace.

 

It is your greatness, to even entertain my questions and comments. Thank

you very much for encouraging me to speak up. I am happy to say that the

discussions/exchanges with you were very wonderful, and it has been always

so.

 

Even after all this discussions, if you think that there is no change

required in your text, who am I to change your text.

 

I do not know, if I was the only one who felt that there are some

speculative/irrelevant statements in that text after reading it.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mataji,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP & AGT ISKCON.

 

I have never suggested that we must ban discussions, about what is going

wrong and how to correct and prevent it from happening again.

 

Just as any citizen, raises an objection, if some one suggests that just

because some motor vehicle accident has taken place, so no one must drive

the roads for the next 10 or 20 years, when things may be better .

Similarly as a member of ISKCON, if some one suggests directly or indirectly

that no aspiring disciple must take Diksha , or in other words Diksha should

be banned for next 10 or 20 years, and all of them must take Diksha only

from a self effulgent Acarya who may come after such a speculated time then

definitely I will put my 2 cent worth objection.

 

> >My understanding is, as devotees if we can help some one then we must

talk

> >about them. Other wise we must not talk about them. Otherwise that talk

> >tantamounts to Gramya Katha.

>

> Obviously such discussions

> need to be balanced and there is no need to simply dwell on the

> details of anyone's fall down, but we're never going to grow if we

> simply ban the discussions all together, just because they're not

> helping the person who fell.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

Note :Mataji, I am not seeing my texts posted on Granddisciples except your

texts. I do not know what is the reason. Is the moderator not posting

them, or by any chance my address is not there in the list. Posting your

texts ahead of the moderator posting other texts creates confusion, I feel.

[Guest guest]

At 14:41 -0800 3/31/2000, Mukta Purusa (das) SDG (Phoenix - Mauritius) wrote:

>If we want to make advancement.Here is what the Bhagvata says "Canto 7 ch 15

 

 

Right, but I was talking about whether it ever makes sense to

discuss the nature and causes of various problems among leaders who

fall (and in the institution for that matter) so we can prevent those

from happening again. I'm aware that some poeple think it's better

for us individually just to focus on our own sadhana, service or

work on ourselves. And discussing the various obstacles to this may

indeed be useful. However, I'm not sure the two are mutually

exclusive. Direct reform work has already had positive impact. For

example, if we had not had reformers in ISKCON, we might still have

been stuck with the zonal acarya system. Without devotees interested

in discussing past offenses and human rights abuses, we would not

have a child protection office. Trying to work directly for reform

and human rights can also be service.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>I have never suggested that we must ban discussions, about what is going

>wrong and how to correct and prevent it from happening again.

 

Great. Then there is no disagreement.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> Bhadra Balaram Prabhu writes:

 

just to point out, it's not bhadra balaram but bhadra govinda prabhu writing

to you on this subject.

 

ys, bb

[Guest guest]

>

> I do not know, if I was the only one who felt that there are some

> speculative/irrelevant statements in that text after reading it.

 

well, before posting the original text I thoguht for a while if I should

straightaway post it or write an accompanying comment. the reason was that

the text did appear kind of far from nayanaranjana pr's other texts which

are usually filled with SP quotes. But I didn't wnat to start debating on it

although I expected some discussion would come up. I am thankful to both of

you for writing up your thoughts nicely. Hare Krishna!

 

ys, bb

[Guest guest]

> the reason was that

> the text did appear kind of far from nayanaranjana pr's other texts which

> are usually filled with SP quotes.

 

I gave all the quotes from Srila Prabhupada, SBSST, BVT in my second

message.

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

> the reason was that

> the text did appear kind of far from nayanaranjana pr's other texts which

> are usually filled with SP quotes.

 

I gave all the quotes from Srila Prabhupada, SBSST, BVT in my second

message.

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

If we want to make advancement.Here is what the Bhagvata says "Canto 7 ch

15.One can give up the enmies by discussing of its disadvantages.

Example.

How to conquer:Hunger and thirst by fasting

: To conquer pride by serving devotees

: Lamentation by Spiritual knowledge

: Passion and ignorance by entering in mode of

goodness.

: so ,we discuss about the disadvantages of all

these things.

 

ys

mk das.

-

Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA - USA)

<Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Bhadra Govinda Das (JPS) <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>; Granddisciples (of

Srila Prabhupada) <Granddisciples (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; India (Continental Committee)

Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000 8:30 AM

Re: On choosing a guru in the present circumstances...

 

 

> At 23:34 +0800 3/29/2000, Bhadra Govinda Das (JPS) wrote:

> >My

> >understanding is, as devotees if we can help some one then we must talk

> >about them. Other wise we must not talk about them. Otherwise that talk

> >tantamounts to Gramya Katha.

>

> While I think it's true that gossiping about others' fall-downs is

> not a particularly spiritually enlivening practice, it is also true

> that these fall-downs are not just the personal business of the gurus

> who fell. Thousands of disciples have been affected as has the

> entire society. Some disciples and godbrothers/godsisters were

> traumatised to the point of losing faith all together, or at least

> leaving ISKCON. We therefore absolutely must discuss what went wrong

> and how to try to prevent it from happening again. All is not well

> in ISKCON right now and that's why devotees at all levels are

> contributing their 2 cents about how to make it a place more

> condusive to cultuvating spiritual life. Obviously such discussions

> need to be balanced and there is no need to simply dwell on the

> details of anyone's fall down, but we're never going to grow if we

> simply ban the discussions all together, just because they're not

> helping the person who fell.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

>

>

[Guest guest]

> My speculation: Most of the guru related problems would be reduced very

> much, if we all discussed disciple reform in ISKCON rather than guru

> reform. By doing so even the bonafide gurus will be covered in the

> discussion as every Guru is also a disciple of his own guru.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Das.

 

Respected Prabhus and Maharaja

 

It is very nice to come across such a nice discussion about choosing a guru.

 

In fact everyone is a disciple first and then he is also a guru may not be

initiating one but he does play a role of a guru. Therefore everyone should

adhere very strictly to the siddhanta of viasnva philosophy.

 

According to Srila Prabhupada if one is Guru then he has all the good

qualities and if he does not have good qualites then he not a guru. There

is no concept of a bad guru (I read it somewhere but cannot provide quote).

If you are talking of fall down then we should boldly declare that many

devotees became the victim of maya but a guru can never fall.

 

In anyway it is very diffcult to recognise a sadguru even if we know all the

qualites as being discussed because our jnana is based on indriya-parantra

jnana and we will examine everything with in the perview of our exerience.

 

Lord Krsna says

 

man-maya-mohita-dhiyah purusah purusarsabha

sreyo vadanty anekantam yata karma yatha-ruci

S.B. 11.14.9

Translation:

O best among men, the intelligence of human beings is bewildered by

My illusory potency, and thus, according to their own activities and

whims, they speak in innumerable ways about what is actually good for

people.

 

We are discussing that a uttama adhikari sees this or that, Okay, but how do

we know what is he seeing. We can simply guess and speculate about his

activity.

 

The whole idea is strong faith and determination in guru and Krsna and then

everythings will fit to the puzzle. After all with four defects how we will

make sure about right or wrong.

 

The example could be given that Srila Prabhupada is a sadguru and thousands

came in his contact accepted him their spiritual master but few stayed. So

to conclude that not only sadguru is required but what about the devotee.

 

I fully agree as stated above to discuss about reform of disciples.

 

yhs, vmd

[Guest guest]

Dear prabhus,

PAMHO

On the issue of Guruship, I personally think that in Iskcon, at least at

the present situation, we must agree that we are on the same boat . Whether

the guru is qualified or not, we are in a dangerous ocean.We are trying to

cross a fearful ocean equipped with devotees of different qualities.What is

the problem of siksa or diksa.?Srila prabhupad is the guide and we take

guidance from his books and from Iskcon. At least if we stay with ISKCON ,

tightly bound together,we shall all cross it.We all know,that there is no

better place to be safer than to be with ISKCON. What is the harm to take

guidance to make some progress,even at some point that the Guru may fall

down.? We depend on Krishna to give us more guidance. And depend on the Holy

names of the lord.We just have to be determined how to go back to godhead.

I think we must not forget that we are in Kaliyuga and believe me, its going

to be hard to find someone of the Quality of Srila Prabhupad. But,we shall

find many stars , perhaps could constitute a moon all together. This is why

I am talking of a single boat with different qualities of devotees

inside----ISKCON.Let us guide the boat all together and have it land

ashore.A success of all.!!!

 

Think about it.

 

your servant

 

mk das.

 

 

 

-

Antardwip (das) JPS (UK) <Antardwip.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Atmabhu (das) HKS

(Belgrade - YU) <Atmabhu.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Bhadra Govinda Das (JPS)

<raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>; Dvarkadhisa (das) IDS (Krakow - PL)

<Dvarkadhisa.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Nayana-ranjana (das) (BBT Bombay - IN)

<Nayana-ranjana (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Granddisciples (of Srila Prabhupada)

<Granddisciples (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

<India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Cc: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) <Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Friday, March 31, 2000 12:11 AM

On choosing a guru in the present circumstances...

 

 

> > Bhadra Govinda Prabhu wrote:

> >

> > > 3. Your speculation is there are no sadgurus at present or one must

> > > surrender only to a *self effulgent acharya* . I think one can

surrender

> > > to any sadguru and not only just to a self effulgent acarya. There

are so

> > > many sadgurus out there, among Srila Prabhupada's disciples, by Srila

> > > Prabhupada's mercy.

> >

> > I will answer the third point first and the earlier points later.

> >

> > Nobody can say categorically that there are no sadgurus in ISKCON

atpresent.

> > Once can only understand the position of others when one is himself on a

very

> > high platform. But the very fact that the GBC had to implement Guru

Reform

> > speaks for itself and certainly gives a hint that all the gurus in

ISKCON may

> > not be on the highest platform. Because a sadguru never needs to be

reformed.

> > Infact he never commits mistakes or deviates from the instructions of

his

> > spiritual master. Do you agree?

>

> no

> >

> > It is my personal opinion that some (if not many) of the falldowns of

the

> > gurus in ISKCON has been due to accepting a platform (& everything that

goes

> > with it) higher than that they were on. This is confirmed by the Srila

> > Prabhupada as well as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta:

> >

> Are you admitting they were gurus, but thought they were acharyas - if so,

I

> think they have apologised to the society for the "acharya" period

already? I

> think you must be accepting they were qualified gurus because you talk of

their

> falldown from that position. But thought they were acharyas as well, in

the

> sense that Srila Prabhupada was an acharya? If you accept they were gurus,

what

> is your problem?

>

> You say a sad-guru never needs to be reformed. Does Srila Prabhupada use

the

> word sad-guru, if so in what context does he use it, and does HE say he

never

> needs to be reformed? If not, where did you hear this term an where did

you

> hear that the guru never needs to be reformed. Otherwise what is the

meaning of

> having Srila Prabhupada as the siksha guru of ISKCON?

>

> In Chaitanya Caritamrita, Lord Chaitanya rebukes many followers who were

> ablosutely perfect, like Sanatana Goswami with his good cloth (or by

having a

> cow attack Srila Prabhupada, which hurried him in his way to the west).

Just as

> Lord Krishna always takes a spiritual master only to show the nonsense of

ideas

> like ritvikisn, so Lord Chaitanya showed (as the mother teaches the

> daughter-in-law by teaching the daughter) that purity lies in surrender to

Him

> and it is an on-going process. He even chastises Satyavati, but what makes

> these souls perfect is that they will accept His chastisement and

correction.

> That is a sad guru. Not someone who never makes mistakes.

>

> Hope this is of some help.

>

[Guest guest]

I must say, very nice text. Thankyou prabhus.

 

ys, bb

 

> > My speculation: Most of the guru related problems would be reduced very

> > much, if we all discussed disciple reform in ISKCON rather than guru

> > reform. By doing so even the bonafide gurus will be covered in the

> > discussion as every Guru is also a disciple of his own guru.

> >

> > Your humble servant,

> > Bhadra Govinda Das.

>

> Respected Prabhus and Maharaja

>

> It is very nice to come across such a nice discussion about choosing a

> guru.

>

> In fact everyone is a disciple first and then he is also a guru may not be

> initiating one but he does play a role of a guru. Therefore everyone

> should adhere very strictly to the siddhanta of viasnva philosophy.

>

> According to Srila Prabhupada if one is Guru then he has all the good

> qualities and if he does not have good qualites then he not a guru. There

> is no concept of a bad guru (I read it somewhere but cannot provide

> quote). If you are talking of fall down then we should boldly declare that

> many devotees became the victim of maya but a guru can never fall.

>

> In anyway it is very diffcult to recognise a sadguru even if we know all

> the qualites as being discussed because our jnana is based on

> indriya-parantra jnana and we will examine everything with in the perview

> of our exerience.

>

> Lord Krsna says

>

> man-maya-mohita-dhiyah purusah purusarsabha

> sreyo vadanty anekantam yata karma yatha-ruci

> S.B. 11.14.9

> Translation:

> O best among men, the intelligence of human beings is bewildered by

> My illusory potency, and thus, according to their own activities and

> whims, they speak in innumerable ways about what is actually good for

> people.

>

> We are discussing that a uttama adhikari sees this or that, Okay, but how

> do we know what is he seeing. We can simply guess and speculate about his

> activity.

>

> The whole idea is strong faith and determination in guru and Krsna and

> then everythings will fit to the puzzle. After all with four defects how

> we will make sure about right or wrong.

>

> The example could be given that Srila Prabhupada is a sadguru and

> thousands came in his contact accepted him their spiritual master but few

> stayed. So to conclude that not only sadguru is required but what about

> the devotee.

>

> I fully agree as stated above to discuss about reform of disciples.

>

> yhs, vmd