Gurukula Lawsuit Special - The Facts or Public schools instead

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/17/2000 10:21:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

 

> At my son's current school (a public U.S.

> middle school), they stress inclusion, rather than exclusion and last

> year were visited by representatives by several different churches

> and temples.

 

I was invited to my daughters' elementary school to bring prasadam, wearing a

sari, I wasn't allowed to preach per se, but I was allowed to explain "Hindu"

culture and why the cow is protected. If I knew how to lead kirtan, the

teacher would have been thrilled I am sure. Public schools have the

reputation of being atheistic, but in reality just as many people are

searching who work in public schools as who work in any other walk of life.

Many teachers actually think it is their duty to expose kids to other

cultures and religions. This is an opportunity. My daughter distributed

prasadam cookies in school and still does now that she is in college. She had

one teacher in all those years who implied that she was missing something

because she didn't have any faith in Darwin. He wrote her a little note and

said that when she could get away from her mom she should check it out and

learn the truth. She just laughted when she read it.

[Guest guest]

Mothers should be in charge of schools. They are naturally qualifed and have

a natural intelligence to see when and how education could be implemented in

ISKCON or not. This area of responsibility is not for sannyasis.

 

In certain areas it is obvious that the ladies posess a greater amount of

the valuable ingredient called "basic simple common sense" which could also

be translated as "intelligence" to the amazement of some.

 

Y.s.

Svarupa das

 

PS. Inspired by His grace Ekanath Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/18/2000 2:50:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Svarupa.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

 

> Mothers should be in charge of schools. They are naturally qualifed and have

> a natural intelligence to see when and how education could be implemented

in

> ISKCON or not. This area of responsibility is not for sannyasis.

>

> In certain areas it is obvious that the ladies posess a greater amount of

> the valuable ingredient called "basic simple common sense" which could also

> be translated as "intelligence" to the amazement of some.

>

 

Generally the gurukula was the school of the guru and his wife was part of

the equation. Sannyasis should not be running the school. But, the

significant thing is that there needs to be a male presence in any childs

educational life, especially a boy child. Girls are perhaps better off with

women teachers or at least in segregated schools. However, I am not so

comfortable with the idea that women should be running the schools because of

some inate ability to care for children. One of the problems in the public

school system is that the pay is so low, men do not want to be teachers. This

is unfortunate for the children. I particularly want my son to have some

teachers who are male and one reason is that I have found that men usually

have an easier time dealing with my son. Often a female teacher will say he

is rude and inconsiderate but a male teacher will say he is a well behaved

child. Is the child different with each teacher, perhaps, but I also think

there is a predisposition to gender prejudice. A male teacher will see a lack

of social skills where a female teacher sees rudeness. yhs, Kanti dasi

[Guest guest]

Actually, a lot of people caught on to this 10-15 years ago.

 

 

Svarupa.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net [svarupa.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

Thursday, August 17, 2000 11:43 PM

India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum); Varnasrama development

Gurukula Lawsuit Special - The Facts or Public schools instead

 

 

Mothers should be in charge of schools. They are naturally qualifed and have

a natural intelligence to see when and how education could be implemented in

ISKCON or not. This area of responsibility is not for sannyasis.

 

In certain areas it is obvious that the ladies posess a greater amount of

the valuable ingredient called "basic simple common sense" which could also

be translated as "intelligence" to the amazement of some.

 

Y.s.

Svarupa das

 

PS. Inspired by His grace Ekanath Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

> There is also a second group of people who feel like one of Srila

> Prabhupada's great strengths was his willingness to adjust his plans

> when he saw that something was not working. The scenarios described

> by both Svarupa and Kanti prabhus point to the fact that sometimes

> even non-abusive gurukulas can be detrimental to children's Krsna

> Consciousness (e.g. if they graduate without skills comparable to

> their non-devotee-school educated peers and are unable to support a

> family).

 

My fifteen year old son is currently studying for his GCSE in Mayapur with

Cambridge University accreditation, thanks to Racitambara Mataji. The long

term plan for my son is to go on for another two years in Mayapur to get his

A Levels, and then he'll return to England and go to University. He'll

probably study in the fields of computer networking and/or to be a chartered

surveyor/property developer, and thereafter begin in a job with an income of

around fifty thousand dollars plus per annum. And shortly thereafter double

and trible that by starting his own business. He is fired up about this lan

and get all encouragement both from home and the teachers in Mayapur.

 

He wants to get on in the material world and I'm encouraging him to get into

it in full swing. He is happy knowing that one day he'll look back on his

first class spiritual education which he'll never forget. He qenuibely

realises this even now. And fortunately by Krishna's grace there has been no

major scandals either in Vrindavana or Mayapur gurukulas while my son

attended over the last seven years, although comparatively sometimes the

material conditions become a little harsh. But on the whole he will end up

with a really great material and spiritual education. This is what Srila

Prabhupada wanted, and the credit goes to the current teachers in Vrindavana

and Mayapur gurukulas who continue with their service in spite of all the

bad flack.

 

My point in bringing this up is that in spite of all the bad things that

have happened in our gurukulas in the past there are some positive things

happening at present, though it be on a very small scale compared to what

Srila Pabhupada wanted. And particularly in Mayapur, they have really struck

the right material and spiritual education balance, as was referred to in

your above text.

 

ys

 

ada

[Guest guest]

On 17 Aug 2000, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> At 1:45 -0700 8/17/2000, Srirama (das) ACBSP wrote:

> > We should hope one might wish to consider Srila Prabhupada's opinion, as

> >he was not in favor of secular education (to put it mildly). His vision

> >included the development of Krishna consciousness from an early age and

> >continuing especially through the educational experience. Of course, there

> >are those who feel Srila Prabhupada was totally in error on this point

>

> There is also a second group of people who feel like one of Srila

> Prabhupada's great strengths was his willingness to adjust his plans

> when he saw that something was not working. The scenarios described

> by both Svarupa and Kanti prabhus point to the fact that sometimes

> even non-abusive gurukulas can be detrimental to children's Krsna

> Consciousness (e.g. if they graduate without skills comparable to

> their non-devotee-school educated peers and are unable to support a

> family).

 

This is not a universal problem. My experience of young adults without skills

has more to do with parental and societal problems and less to do with Iskcon

schooling. Why is there a perception that one can't learn in Iskcon schools?

Individual examples may be there on both sides, but why denigrate the obvious

fact that Iskcon schools should exist and should be supported over other

options? Notice that I’m saying “Iskcon schools” not “Gurukula”. Time and

circumstances may dictate various choices.

[Guest guest]

At 23:06 -0400 8/21/2000, WWW: Jiva Goswami (Dasa) SDG (Newnansville

FL - USA) wrote:

 

>Why is there a perception that one can't learn in Iskcon schools?

 

I don't think anyone has said that you *can't* learn in *any* ISKCON

schools. The views you have heard reflect the opinions of multiple

gurukula alumni. *Many* (not all) of them have stated that they

were inadequately prepared for both advanced studies and for

practicing a trade.

 

>Individual examples may be there on both sides, but why denigrate the obvious

>fact that Iskcon schools should exist and should be supported over other

>options?

 

That may be an "obvious fact" to you, but not to everyone else. If

you have actually read the texts previously posted here you should

know by now that not everyone agrees with your opinion that ISKCON

schools should be supported over other options.Some people do and

others don't. We all have to weigh our options and make the best

choices we can.

 

>Notice that I'm saying "Iskcon schools" not "Gurukula". Time and

>circumstances may dictate various choices.

 

Exactly. And for some parents those choices may involve afterschool

or Sunday schools that teach primarily sastra, rather than full time

schools in which regular academics are taught by teachers who lack

the competence and/or credentials to teach them. As parents we have

a responsibility to provide our children with what we feel is best

for them. And it's OK if we don't all make the same choice.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

OK, here it goes again.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted our society to have its own schools and our children

to go to them. If quotes are needed or there are any doubts in a particular

person's mind, just stop here and go on to another message. This one's not for

you.

 

Due to time and circumstance, we may need to NOT have an Iskcon school in a

particular place at a certain time. Or, we may not want to send our kids to

it. This may be required but it isn't the best. It may be the best for that

time and circumstance, but circumstances have forced us to take a lesser

choice. We should NOT adjust the simple fact that our children SHOULD go to

Iskcon schools, but maybe can't for cause. If quotes and examples are needed

or if there are any doubts in a particular person's mind, just stop here and

go on to another message. This one's not for you.

 

Some people who have gone through Iskcon's schools have had great experiences

and are quite happy with themselves and with Krsna Consciousness. I have

spoken to some personally. Yes, I know about the others who had different

experiences. However, those different experiences DO NOT CONSTITUTE THE WHOLE!

The history of Iskcon schools and Iskcon in general is very mixed and very

dark in many corners. The bad must be addressed and problems such as the

lawsuit are part of the result of not doing so. What to speak of the damaged

individuals, lawsuit or no lawsuit. Lots of work is required. Both to try to

resolve the problems of the past, and to try to avoid their future occurrence.

This should be clear and unambiguous.

 

The purpose and ideals of our society are largely fixed and not up for popular

vote. An individual may emphasize certain features and understand things in

his (or her) own way to a point. But it can cross to the point where a

particular idea is just plain wrong.

 

For example, to say that karmi schools are better than Iskcon schools for our

children, not with respect to a time and circumstance adjustment, is just

wrong. This is clear. If not, reread from the beginning and go to the next

message when directed.

 

One may choose to put their children where they feel directed to put them. But

please understand that Prabhupada wanted children to go our own vaisnava

schools. This may create some tension within the mind. Resolve the tension in

some other way besides rejecting, secularizing, minimizing, adjusting, etc.

the clear principle. Take the flow chart back up to the top paragraph if need

be.

 

What’s the name of the devotee who would take the rice that the cows wouldn’t

eat, wash it and eat it as the highest type of Prasade? The story goes

something like this:

 

Jagganatha’s Pujaris would take rice home with them; the rice would go through

a series of individuals giving their remnants to others until the last

remnants were given to the cows. Then the cows wouldn’t even eat some of it,

and this devotee would come, pick it up, wash it, and then eat it.

 

I wish I could remember his name. Anyway, I don’t do that and I wouldn’t do

that. I eat my rice fresh. However, who’s the better person? Should I go back

and tell this devotee that he shouldn’t do that? “Hey you! Get out of the C.C.

That’s muchi!” Maybe we can get the prevalent opinion of the devotees in this

conference and tell him of the proper standard. (The proper standard is the

one that I follow of course.)

 

Or maybe we can do what we have to and regret that we can’t do better.

 

If you don’t get my point, just forget it and move on.

 

 

 

 

On 26 Aug 2000, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> At 23:06 -0400 8/21/2000, WWW: Jiva Goswami (Dasa) SDG (Newnansville

> FL - USA) wrote:

>

> >Why is there a perception that one can't learn in Iskcon schools?

>

> I don't think anyone has said that you *can't* learn in *any* ISKCON

> schools. The views you have heard reflect the opinions of multiple

> gurukula alumni. *Many* (not all) of them have stated that they

> were inadequately prepared for both advanced studies and for

> practicing a trade.

>

> >Individual examples may be there on both sides, but why denigrate the

obvious

> >fact that Iskcon schools should exist and should be supported over other

> >options?

>

> That may be an "obvious fact" to you, but not to everyone else. If

> you have actually read the texts previously posted here you should

> know by now that not everyone agrees with your opinion that ISKCON

> schools should be supported over other options.Some people do and

> others don't. We all have to weigh our options and make the best

> choices we can.

>

> >Notice that I'm saying "Iskcon schools" not "Gurukula". Time and

> >circumstances may dictate various choices.

>

> Exactly. And for some parents those choices may involve afterschool

> or Sunday schools that teach primarily sastra, rather than full time

> schools in which regular academics are taught by teachers who lack

> the competence and/or credentials to teach them. As parents we have

> a responsibility to provide our children with what we feel is best

> for them. And it's OK if we don't all make the same choice.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/26/2000 9:32:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

 

> Exactly. And for some parents those choices may involve afterschool

> or Sunday schools that teach primarily sastra, rather than full time

> schools in which regular academics are taught by teachers who lack

> the competence and/or credentials to teach them. As parents we have

> a responsibility to provide our children with what we feel is best

> for them. And it's OK if we don't all make the same choice.

 

Thank you for expressing so nicely the often agonizing choices parents are

faced with. It is time for ISKCON to grow up and realize the emergency mode

and experimenting with our children's well being, far past the point of

failing them, is not the answer. We can keep our eye on what may ultimately

be the best for our society's children, but it is not in our society's best

interest to short change the children who are here now. To develop a school

system that can provide both spiritual and secular education should be a goal

of ISKCON in general. But until we actually have the financial support (i.e.

established congregation members who can provide the laxmi, not uneducated

young people doing the "pick") and properly educated instructors, we as

parents must provide educations as best we can and inject spiritual values

when and where we can. It is more financially feasible to develop after

school religous training ( as the Jews and Catholics do) or Sunday school

training ( as the rest of the Christian world does) for the kids now, while

working on the long range plans. Denigrating the different choices parents

have made and implying that some how we all don't have the same goal,

successful raising our children in a difficult world, is not productive in

any way. Let's lose the guilt trips if possible, they are no fun and have

never been a viable long term solution. yhs Kanti dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:40:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

JivaGo (AT) FDT (DOT) Net writes:

 

> For example, to say that karmi schools are better than Iskcon schools for

our

> children, not with respect to a time and circumstance adjustment, is just

> wrong.

 

I do not believe that I read one single commentary on this thread that even

remotely advocated what you have suggested. No one has disagreed with you so

why continue to beat a dead horse? How about you personally starting and

commiting to maintaining a trust fund that will actually start the process of

financially supporting the schools you are talking about? Many long time

devotees are actually walking wounded when it comes to financial issues, that

is a karmic reality, if you are in another position, great. Use your

financial security to further Srila Prabhupada's desires. You will get no

arguments about what Srila Prabhpada wanted and expected, there are no doubts

about this, so the sarcasm is misplaced. How do we as a society achieve this

goal, that is the question. yhs, Kanti dasi

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:40:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> JivaGo (AT) FDT (DOT) Net writes:

>

> > For example, to say that karmi schools are better than Iskcon schools

> > for

> our

> > children, not with respect to a time and circumstance adjustment, is

> > just wrong.

>

> I do not believe that I read one single commentary on this thread that

> even remotely advocated what you have suggested. No one has disagreed with

> you so why continue to beat a dead horse? How about you personally

> starting and commiting to maintaining a trust fund that will actually

> start the process of financially supporting the schools you are talking

> about? Many long time devotees are actually walking wounded when it comes

> to financial issues, that is a karmic reality, if you are in another

> position, great. Use your financial security to further Srila Prabhupada's

> desires. You will get no arguments about what Srila Prabhpada wanted and

> expected, there are no doubts about this, so the sarcasm is misplaced. How

> do we as a society achieve this goal, that is the question. yhs, Kanti

> dasi

 

 

Thank you Kanti Mataji for your very reasonable comment and suggestion.

It is so painful sometimes to receive comments from some devotees who are

not aware of all the past endeavors and failures and have so little respect

for senior grhasthas. I am very grateful to you for your most impartial and

practicle answer. We often find devotees dreaming and not honesty evaluating

the state of things in our society. It is a great relief to hear your

comments, as you went also through painful times in Iskcon and have managed

to get out of all kinds of difficulties, with some mature realizations. Many

thanks again for your inputs.

 

Your servant, Krsna-kirtana dasi.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Aug 2000, Kanti dd wrote:

 

> In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:40:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> JivaGo (AT) FDT (DOT) Net writes:

>

> > For example, to say that karmi schools are better than Iskcon schools for

> our

> > children, not with respect to a time and circumstance adjustment, is just

> > wrong.

>

> I do not believe that I read one single commentary on this thread that even

> remotely advocated what you have suggested. No one has disagreed with you so

 

> why continue to beat a dead horse?

 

Here's one for you from a couple of weeks ago:

 

**** Quote from this news group ****

 

> Gurukulas are set

> up specifically to train boys to become priests or preachers,

 

Maybe that's their traditional purpose. But in terms of that first generation

of ISKCON children, we know that the criteria for attendance were more

inclusive. There are Prabhupada quotes that say that all children should

attend and other quotes that showed that he knew that there were both females

and boys who were not brahminically inclined there.

 

>Was that what Prabhupada really wanted?

>How to maintain a family by being only a priest in a temple?

 

Good point. I guess if that's the only valid reason to send kids to gurukula,

it would exclude a lot of children (i.e. females and those boys not preparing

for the priesthood).

 

So :

1) how do we provide a KC education for the rest of our future generations of

Vaisnavas who are not going to be male priests: through Sunday school,

after-school classes (like Chowpatty or the Hebrew school model) or what.....?

 

2) how do you know at age 5 if your son is going to be a full-time, life-long

preacher? And even if the parents think they know, do they have the right to

restrict his career options and ability to support a family?

 

**** End if quote ***

 

Sounds to me like something other than creating full service Iskcon schools

for our children to go to. It doesn't sound like adjusting due to time and

circumstance, but keeping the higher goal in mind. At least it "remotely"

advocates what I had suggested.

 

YS JvGs

 

I'm done with this horse by the way, anyone want it?