Thread 4: A prayer, ---honestly speaking

[Guest guest]

>So, what you are saying is when Krsna told Sri Arjuna, "sarva-dharman

>parityajya...etc.", Sri Arjuna should have stopped doing his

>varnasrama-dharma duty of a ksatriya and gone to the woods like he wanted

>to in the first place? I don't think Sri Arjuna did that. Does that make

>him a fallen devotee?

 

>Shouldn't we follow Sri Arjuna's example of what he did after hearing

>perfectly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead? I think Sri Arjuna got

>the message of the Gita perfectly and his actions after hearing it are

>exemplary, especially for us in this age.

 

>Sarva dharman, etc., means give up material consciousness and surrender to

>My perfect daiva varnasrama-dharma system, just like Sri Arjuna did.

 

>In my humble opinion.

 

>Krsne matir astu.

 

>Janesvara dasa

 

What I am saying is we don't have to train someone in military art. There

are many (Arjunas) people who are already trained in that. All we have to

do is give them a Bhagavadgita As It Is and a Japamala.

 

ISKCON has to follow Sri Krishna's example above. That is ISKCON has to

take the role of Sri Krishna and teach all the Arjunas, to follow Sri

Krishna's instructions.

 

Also we must note, that kauravas were also Ksatriyas by Varnasrama Dharma

and they were fighting according to their kastriya Dharma, but on the wrong

side. It is very clear by the Kauravas example, that just being a ksatriya

is not important. One must also follow the instructions of Krishna or

spiritual master, and please them.

 

ISKCON must teach people "You must not just fight. But think of krishna as

you are fighting".

 

The point is not whether to fight or not to fight. The point is fight/dont

fight follow that path which pleases Krishna and in our case, the spiritual

master.

 

For example if the bonafide Spiritual Master may tell some one to give up

his job in a ugra karma factory and join the temple as a pujary, one must do

that. He cannot say I am a Sudra and I cannot do a brahmana job. In

another case if he tells some temple pujarys to go and find jobs, as there

is no income coming to maintain the temple then one must go and find jobs,

even in Ugra Karma factory. One cannot say I am a brahmana, and I do not

want to do a sudra job and that is not my Dharma or vice versa. One must

simply try to find out what Guru and krishna want. Srila Prabhupada said

what ever is required has to be done.

 

What has to be done is important, and who has to do is not as important.

 

Sarvadharman parityajya means, do what ever is required to please the

Spiritual Master and Krishna. Case to case, what is required is different.

Sometimes one must fight and sometimes one must not fight.

 

Krishnaconsciousness movement is simply to change the consciousness of the

people. Not for changing/deciding some one's guna and karma, which is

anyway already there. There are intellectual men (brahmanas), military men

and police men (ksatriyas), business men, shop keepers,traders, farmers

(Vaisyas), factory workers, farm workers, (Sudras) already out there. The

only problem is they do not know how to please krishna. That is what ISKCON

is supposed to do, to teach all these professors, teachers, policemen,

military men, businessmen, labourers how to add Krishna to their lives, and

plese Him.

 

That is what I understand from Srila Prabhupad's quote. Sarva Dharman

parityajya means give up (if required) even Varnasrama Dharma or any Dharma

to please Guru and Krishna.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

I am not against establishing farm communities as our founder acarya wanted

that, and that was one of the 7 goals he set up when ISKCON was regestered

in New York in 1966 and that will definitely please him very much.

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Seeking your blessings,

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

[Guest guest]

At 12:21 AM 9/16/00 +0900, Bhadra Govinda (das) JPS (Singapore - SG) wrote:

 

 

>What I am saying is we don't have to train someone in military art. There

>are many (Arjunas) people who are already trained in that.

 

Does that mean that you're saying we only focus on making *new* devotees

and neglect all those who joined ISKCON uneducated and untrained, or those

who grew up in ISKCON? No religion that ignores its current members and

future generations, and only focus on missionary activities, can be

sustained over time.

 

> All we have to

>do is give them a Bhagavadgita As It Is and a Japamala.

 

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that statement sounds extremely naive

and simplistic. If that were the case, ISKCON would have several hundred

times more members right now.

 

 

>ISKCON has to follow Sri Krishna's example above. That is ISKCON has to

>take the role of Sri Krishna and teach all the Arjunas, to follow Sri

>Krishna's instructions.

 

You can't be serious?! ISKCON can't even get all its members to come up to

the mode of goodness and behave ethically and morally, and yet you think

they're empowered to convince highly trained military to become

devotees. Maybe Singapore is different from Western countries.

 

>ISKCON must teach people "You must not just fight. But think of krishna as

>you are fighting".

 

Good instructions. But I keep wondering who this "ISKCON" is about whom

you're speaking. ISKCON consists of *people*. Who are the devotees who're

going to perform these actions? Given that you don't think anyone needs to

be trained (except in KC), how do you think devotees will have any

credibility with these groups?

 

>That is what ISKCON

>is supposed to do, to teach all these professors, teachers, policemen,

>military men, businessmen, labourers how to add Krishna to their lives, and

>plese Him.

 

Again "ISKCON" is supposed to change society. Your texts on this

conference sound like you're in some serious denial about the current

(multiple) crises in our society. I'd suggest we take a bit more of a

humble approach right now and focus on some internal house cleaning before

we start telling the rest of society what they "should" do.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> Does that mean that you're saying we only focus on making *new* devotees

> and neglect all those who joined ISKCON uneducated and untrained, or those

> who grew up in ISKCON?

 

No. I did not say that, and I am surprised how you have that perception.

Srila Prabhupada said a bird in hand is worth two in a bush. It is better

to retain existing devotees, than get new devotees, but when we retain the

existing devotees and train them, then they will go and get new devotees.

The idea of retaining new devotees is to get new devotees, *through them*.

Lord Caitanya said, how many fruits I can distribute myself. I need

distributers.

 

>No religion that ignores its current members and

> future generations, and only focus on missionary activities, can be

> sustained over time.

 

Agreed. Our missionary activities include loving and caring current members

and future members. Loving and caring members is a subset of the whole set

'missionary activities'.

 

> > All we have to

> >do is give them a Bhagavadgita As It Is and a Japamala.

 

> I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that statement sounds extremely naive

> and simplistic.

 

Yes. Krishna Consciousness principles are very simple. It is not

complicated like the other Dharmas, such as Varnasrama Dharma. In India

when we go and preach to all those caste Brahmanas, ksatriyas, Vaisyas and

Sudras, they think how can attaining love of God can be so simple. It

cannot be. So they go on with their superficial varnasrama dharma

principles. Srila Prabhupada finally had to go to USA, to convince these

simple principles, as the Indian Varnasrama society totally rejected him.

 

> If that were the case, ISKCON would have several hundred

> times more members right now.

 

Yes. The problem is we are complicating simple devotional principles, which

the Acaryas simplified for us. We want to be better than all the Acaryas,

and complicate things.

 

> You can't be serious?! ISKCON can't even get all its members to come up

to

> the mode of goodness and behave ethically and morally, and yet you think

> they're empowered to convince highly trained military to become

> devotees. Maybe Singapore is different from Western countries.

 

Every member of ISKCON today whether they joined in 1965 or in 2000, they

all have been one of those. Academicians, professors, Policemen, army men,

Business men, Farmers, Factory workers. ISKCON gave them Bg, Japamala,

Prasadam and little association, and they gave up their profession for a

higher cause (preaching) or they are remaining in their profession and

helping the preaching mission in some way. Whether Singapore, USA or

Satyaloka, the Bhagavata priniciples are the same.

 

> Again "ISKCON" is supposed to change society. Your texts on this

> conference sound like you're in some serious denial about the current

> (multiple) crises in our society.

 

I am not denying that we are having serious problems. I listed out all

those problems myself, for everyone to see.

 

>I'd suggest we take a bit more of a

> humble approach right now and focus on some internal house cleaning before

> we start telling the rest of society what they "should" do.

 

Good Point. Agreed. I like the word *focus* above. To focus, we have to

quantify our qualitative statements.

 

In future I request you to answer my texts based on Guru, Sadhu and Sastra,

or atleast based on some good logical objective reasoning. I don't have

time if you want to discuss based on your sentiments and perceptions. This

may sound harsh, but I have to say it out. Please forgive me.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.