Thread 4: A prayer, ---honestly speaking

[Guest guest]

> > So, what you are saying is when Krsna told Sri Arjuna, "sarva-dharman

> > parityajya...etc.", Sri Arjuna should have stopped doing his

> > varnasrama-dharma duty of a ksatriya and gone to the woods like he

> > wanted to in the first place?

>

> he indeed gave up all dharmas and followed what Lord Krishna said!!! in

> other words, fully surrendered.

 

 

Sri Arjuna did not "give up" daiva varnasrama-dharma nor did the Supreme

Lord request, recommend or require him to do so. In the beginning of the

battle Arjuna wanted to quit his varnasrama duty out of illusion. Krsna

convinced him to continue with the dharma he had been trained in because it

was his nature. Krsna added the caveat, "tasmat sarvesu kalesu mam anusmara

yudhya ca...etc" Bg 8.7.

 

"In the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that one should

only work for satisfying Yajna or Visnu. The perfectional form of human

civilization, known as varnasrama-dharma, is specifically meant for

satisfying Visnu." Bg 9.24

 

"I am Paramatma, the Supersoul present in everyone's heart and it is My

direct order that human society must follow the principles of varna and

asrama." KB 3.11

 

>

> > Sarva dharman, etc., means give up material consciousness and surrender

> > to My perfect daiva varnasrama-dharma system,

>

> Just to clarify--- are you suggesting that there is a difference between

> varnasrama dharma and daiva varnasrama dharma? if not than I end here but

> if yes then I should add that Srila Prabhupada does't say like that. Hare

> Krishna.

 

"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken

part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples... This may be astonishing

to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the

transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur however, wanted to reestablish

daiva-varnasrama... It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established

all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness.

This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions

of a Krishna conscious society." S.B. 5.1.24.

 

"One of the objectives of the KC movement is to establish this

daiva-varnasrama, but not to encourage so-called varnasrama without

scientifically organized endeavor by human society." SB 7.14.10

 

>

> ys, bb

[Guest guest]

> > I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that statement sounds extremely

> > naive and simplistic.

 

>

> Yes. Krishna Consciousness principles are very simple. It is not

> complicated like the other Dharmas, such as Varnasrama Dharma.

 

 

We will one day understand that there is NO difference between Krsna

consciousness and daiva varnasrama-dharma. Until then we will continue in

chaos.

 

"Therefore, the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to establish this

right system of human civilization, which is known as Krsna consciousness,

or daiva-varnasrama- divine culture." SSR pg.106

 

"Lord Ramacandra became King during Treta-yuga, but because of His good

government, the age was like Satya-yuga. Everyone was religious and

completely happy. Among the four yugas--Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali--the

Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is

introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be

invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant

for this purpose." S.B. 9.10.51

[Guest guest]

> > We will one day understand that there is NO difference between Krsna

> > consciousness and daiva varnasrama-dharma. Until then we will continue

> > in chaos.

>

> Thank you prabhji, I accept that. That is what I was trying to say all

> along. ISKCON is established to spread bhagavata dharma and varnasrama

> dharma is a part of the whole bhagavata dharma.

 

 

But, Prabhuji, you give the impression (which I may be misinterpreting) that

varnasrama-dharma will happen "automatically" if we just go chant Hare

Krsna. Prabhupada gave very detailed instructions to his senior disciples

over 26 years ago over a four day period how to implement varnasrama dharma

within ISKCON. This has not been done to this day and most of those "senior"

disciples are now gone and have left a trail of chaos, crime and abuse of

women children and cows; the opposite of what a Krsna

conscious/varnasrama-dharma society should be.

 

It is NOT automatic. It takes hard work, perspiration and training. We MUST

divide our society into the four divisions of guna and karma.

 

 

"Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be

established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become

Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so

many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest

qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall

down."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big

scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not

possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole

human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be

introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a

large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking

up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said

para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of

people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve

karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit,

not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people

will be happy."

 

 

"To maintain proper social order and help the citizens gradually progress

toward the goal of life - namely spiritual understanding - the principles of

varnasrama-dharma must be accepted. From his verse, Maharaja Priyavrata

appears to have been so strict in maintaining this institution of

varnasrama-dharma that anyone neglecting it would immediately flee from his

presence as soon as the King warned him by fighting or administering light

punishment. Indeed, Maharaja Priyavrata would not have to fight, for simply

because of his strong determination, they dared not disobey the rules and

regulations of varnasrama-dharma. It is said that unless human society is

regulated by varnasrama-dharma, it is no better than a bestial society of

cats and dogs. Maharaja Priyavrata, therefore, strictly maintained

varnasrama-dharma by his extraordinary, unparalleled prowess.

To maintain such a life of strict vigilance, one needs encouragement

from his wife. In the varnasrama-dharma system, certain classes, such as the

brahmanas and sannyasis, do not need encouragement from the opposite sex.

Ksatriyas and grihastas, however, actually need the encouragement of their

wives in order to execute their duties. Indeed, a grihasta or ksatriya

cannot properly execute his responsibilities without the association of his

wife. Sri Caitanya personally admitted that a grihasta must live with a

wife. Ksatriyas were even allowed to have many wives to encourage them in

discharging the duties of government. The association of a good wife is

necessary in a life of karma and political affairs. Maharaja Priyavrata took

advantage of his good wife Barhismati, who was always very expert in

pleasing her great husband by properly dressing herself, smiling, and

exhibiting her feminine bodily features. Queen Barhismati always kept

Maharaja Priyavrata very encouraged, and thus he executed his governmental

duty very properly. In this verse iva has twice been used to indicate that

Maharaja Priyavrata acted exactly like a henpecked husband and thereby

seemed to have lost his sense of human responsibility. Actually, however, he

was fully conscious of his position as a spirit soul, although he seemingly

behaved like an acquiescent karmi husband." SB 5.1.29